Star Wars: Episode VII: The Nerd Rage Awakens

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

No, it doesn't mean they are in Bespin's system. You are think too much about actual distances and our inability here to travel between them.

No.. imagine they are in a car. Anoat (where they are when they are clamped to the star destroyer) is in upstate New york. Hoth is located in Pennsylvania and Bespin in in Florida.

Considering that georgraphy, I could drive to Anoat from Hoth and I could even drive to Bespin.. but that trip would be a bit mire exhausting and it would take a while. If I had a plane ticket (hyperdrive) then the trip to Bespine would take two hours, but I wouldn't need that plane ticket to get Anoat from Hoth.

Star Wars ships go between systems like we can use a car to between towns.. because Star Wars is a fantasy.

If they could travel between systems as you suggest why go to Bespin at all? Why not just meet up with the Rebel fleet?

I odn't mean this is an insulting way, but but there is no evidence that the fleet assembled in any substantial way until the end of the film.. actually that shot isn't even as extensive as we see it at the beginning of the enxt film when the fleet was actually "assembled."

Taht being saud.. to continue my analogy, the Rebel fleet could be located in France, in which case my hyperdrive or plane ticket, would be necessary regardless. Call it that mass in the center of the galaxy, or a lot of foul systems that the Falcon would meet along the way that they could skip over easily witha working hyperdrive.


It's just important to know, when watching Sta rWars, is that using a whole lot of science isn't a good idea. The science of outer space doesn't apply, but I do generally use earth-bound physics basics when thinking about it.. like the fact that R@-D@ is a niche in the back of the X-Wing is enough to confvince me that he won't fly out, but I have a problem with droids rolling around on the surface of the ship as it is moving forward in The Phantom Menace... I also have a problem with them travelling through the planet's core in that movie. But in general, the distances between systems should not be equated with what hwe know from actual science.

 

[DWF]

I don't see why Bespin and Hoth can't have the same star. The line from General Veers about the Rebel's deflector shield protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth system doesn't preclude that.

Ther ninth planet actaully and before detaching from the Avenger they in Anout system not the Hoth system.

It's not ninth, it's sixth. And it's Anoat. If you insist that hyperdrive is necessary to travel between stars, then the Anoat system would share the same star, too.

You're right it's Anoat and it's the sixth planet, but Han tries two times to geet the Falcon to lightspeed and fails. And redally the Hoth system and the Anoat systems are two different star systems, they can't share the same sun.

 

[DWF]

No, it doesn't mean they are in Bespin's system. You are think too much about actual distances and our inability here to travel between them.

No.. imagine they are in a car. Anoat (where they are when they are clamped to the star destroyer) is in upstate New york. Hoth is located in Pennsylvania and Bespin in in Florida.

Considering that georgraphy, I could drive to Anoat from Hoth and I could even drive to Bespin.. but that trip would be a bit mire exhausting and it would take a while. If I had a plane ticket (hyperdrive) then the trip to Bespine would take two hours, but I wouldn't need that plane ticket to get Anoat from Hoth.

Star Wars ships go between systems like we can use a car to between towns.. because Star Wars is a fantasy.

If they could travel between systems as you suggest why go to Bespin at all? Why not just meet up with the Rebel fleet?

I odn't mean this is an insulting way, but but there is no evidence that the fleet assembled in any substantial way until the end of the film.. actually that shot isn't even as extensive as we see it at the beginning of the enxt film when the fleet was actually "assembled."

Taht being saud.. to continue my analogy, the Rebel fleet could be located in France, in which case my hyperdrive or plane ticket, would be necessary regardless. Call it that mass in the center of the galaxy, or a lot of foul systems that the Falcon would meet along the way that they could skip over easily witha working hyperdrive.


It's just important to know, when watching Sta rWars, is that using a whole lot of science isn't a good idea. The science of outer space doesn't apply, but I do generally use earth-bound physics basics when thinking about it.. like the fact that R@-D@ is a niche in the back of the X-Wing is enough to confvince me that he won't fly out, but I have a problem with droids rolling around on the surface of the ship as it is moving forward in The Phantom Menace... I also have a problem with them travelling through the planet's core in that movie. But in general, the distances between systems should not be equated with what hwe know from actual science.

You're missing the point of why Han and Leia were put together in the first place, Han needed a reason to stay with the Rebellion and by heating up the romance between Han Leia was a the only way, escpecially since Luke is Leia's brother, which was also set up in TESB. Whether not the Rebel had been gathered to together or not Leia is one the leaders of the Rebellion and even on Bespin Han talked about getting her back to the fleet.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I understand the story. I was just talking about the ships and distances. I don't believe that just because the hyperdrive doesn't work that planets have to be in the same system. They are using space ships, and going from place to space in space is what they do.

 

[Set Harth]

They are using space ships, and going from place to space in space is what they do.

Unless systems are clustered really unusually close together ( such as in the deep galactic core, maybe? ) you'll generally take years going from system to system if you're going at sublight. As an example the closest other system to ours is over 4 light-years away.

I don't see why Bespin and Hoth can't have the same star.

Because then Bespin would be part of the Hoth system. And when the Imperials early in the film are talking about how the system is supposed to be devoid of humans and how there might be an uncharted settlement or a covert group of smugglers at best, I think that rules out a thriving tibanna gas mining operation with loads of humans all over the place.

 

[theenglish]

The truth is, of course, that the writers never thought of the science of space travel when they wrote in the trip to Bespin.

Assuming that the ship can somehow approach light speed though, and perhaps Bespin is close as in a few light years, the journey to Bespin could take a few years from Luke's perspective but pass relatively quickly for those aboard the Falcon.

Light speed and hyperspace as mentioned earlier don't seem to depend on distance so theoretically a trip across great distances of the galaxy could be as quick or quicker than trips to closer stars. If that's the case then it makes sense that Han might not realize how close the Bespin system is physically until he looks at the computer--the characters just don't think in terms of physical maps the same way we do.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't see why Bespin and Hoth can't have the same star.

Because then Bespin would be part of the Hoth system. And when the Imperials early in the film are talking about how the system is supposed to be devoid of humans and how there might be an uncharted settlement or a covert group of smugglers at best, I think that rules out a thriving tibanna gas mining operation with loads of humans all over the place.

It's not written down in any canon I'm aware of that "system" means "solar system" exclusively and not "planetary system." If it means planetary system, i.e. a multi-planet in this case, of which Hoth is the sixth member, then saying that the Hoth system is devoid of human forms wouldn't carry any implication about any other planetary system around the same star. Perhaps the reason Hoth is so cold and barely habitable is that it is pretty far out.

Granted, "solar system" is the most obvious interpretation, and it would be preferable, but we're dealing with a kind of plot hole here in the first place.

Bending "system" to mean planetary system, if it even is bending, would be preferable to me than imagining a back up hyperdrive which is fairly well contradicted by dialog.


The only other alternative I can think of is to imagine that the stars are less than light years apart, perhaps even in a multiple star system with the stars having very large orbits. So, we'd be talking about a trinary star system at least, one star each for Hoth, Anoat, and Bespin, but they really orbit each other with long periods. Each star would have its own stable solar system, separate from the others. Maybe this possibility is the way to go.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

The truth is, of course, that the writers never thought of the science of space travel when they wrote in the trip to Bespin.

Assuming that the ship can somehow approach light speed though, and perhaps Bespin is close as in a few light years, the journey to Bespin could take a few years from Luke's perspective but pass relatively quickly for those aboard the Falcon.

Light speed and hyperspace as mentioned earlier don't seem to depend on distance so theoretically a trip across great distances of the galaxy could be as quick or quicker than trips to closer stars. If that's the case then it makes sense that Han might not realize how close the Bespin system is physically until he looks at the computer--the characters just don't think in terms of physical maps the same way we do.

that's exactly why I use the car-towns allegory.. they use ships like we use cars

 

[sojourner]

I don't see why Bespin and Hoth can't have the same star.

Because then Bespin would be part of the Hoth system. And when the Imperials early in the film are talking about how the system is supposed to be devoid of humans and how there might be an uncharted settlement or a covert group of smugglers at best, I think that rules out a thriving tibanna gas mining operation with loads of humans all over the place.

It's not written down in any canon I'm aware of that "system" means "solar system" exclusively and not "planetary system." If it means planetary system, i.e. a multi-planet in this case, of which Hoth is the sixth member, then saying that the Hoth system is devoid of human forms wouldn't carry any implication about any other planetary system around the same star. Perhaps the reason Hoth is so cold and barely habitable is that it is pretty far out.

Granted, "solar system" is the most obvious interpretation, and it would be preferable, but we're dealing with a kind of plot hole here in the first place.

Bending "system" to mean planetary system, if it even is bending, would be preferable to me than imagining a back up hyperdrive which is fairly well contradicted by dialog.


The only other alternative I can think of is to imagine that the stars are less than light years apart, perhaps even in a multiple star system with the stars having very large orbits. So, we'd be talking about a trinary star system at least, one star each for Hoth, Anoat, and Bespin, but they really orbit each other with long periods. Each star would have its own stable solar system, separate from the others. Maybe this possibility is the way to go.

Um, a planetary system IS the same thing as a solar system.

 

[Set Harth]

The only other alternative I can think of is to imagine that the stars are less than light years apart, perhaps even in a multiple star system with the stars having very large orbits. So, we'd be talking about a trinary star system at least, one star each for Hoth, Anoat, and Bespin, but they really orbit each other with long periods. Each star would have its own stable solar system, separate from the others. Maybe this possibility is the way to go.

I'd tend to think that in that scenario everything would still be treated as the same overall "system" for classification purposes if nothing else. For systems that close, you probably wouldn't be looking at a star map and finding Bespin almost as an afterthought.

Assuming that the ship can somehow approach light speed though, and perhaps Bespin is close as in a few light years, the journey to Bespin could take a few years from Luke's perspective but pass relatively quickly for those aboard the Falcon.

Unfortunately we never see this kind of discrepancy play out in any other place in canon where interstellar travel occurs.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Um, a planetary system IS the same thing as a solar system.

No.

A planetary system is a set of gravitationally bound non-stellar objects in orbit around a star or star system

And before you go on with "that's just Wikipedia," that's from the top link of your search. Besides, it's not that hard to understand by analogy with "solar system" that the predominant body would be planetary and therefore non-stellar in that case.

[Edit - On the question of whether planetary systems require stars to be properly referred to as such, this is from the article on rogue planets:

Herschel far-infrared observations show that the young free-floating planetary mass object OTS 44 is surrounded by a disk with a mass of at least 10 Earth masses and can, therefore, eventually form a mini planetary system.

As explained in the link, OTS 44 is a sub-stellar object (brown dwarf) without a star system. It is therefore merely a question of having found the examples.]

The only other alternative I can think of is to imagine that the stars are less than light years apart, perhaps even in a multiple star system with the stars having very large orbits. So, we'd be talking about a trinary star system at least, one star each for Hoth, Anoat, and Bespin, but they really orbit each other with long periods. Each star would have its own stable solar system, separate from the others. Maybe this possibility is the way to go.

I'd tend to think that in that scenario everything would still be treated as the same overall "system" for classification purposes if nothing else. For systems that close, you probably wouldn't be looking at a star map and finding Bespin almost as an afterthought.

Yeah, perhaps. But maybe these are really long periods (and therefore involving distances that would be considered arduous without hyperdrive "Bespin. It's pretty far, but I think we can make it.").

 

[sojourner]

Um, a planetary system IS the same thing as a solar system.

No.

A planetary system is a set of gravitationally bound non-stellar objects in orbit around a star or star system

Dude. From the same link and the rest of the paragraph you so conveniently left off:

Generally speaking, systems with one or more planets constitute a planetary system, although such systems may also consist of bodies such as dwarf planets, asteroids, natural satellites, meteoroids, comets, planetesimals[1][2] and circumstellar disks. The Sun together with its planetary system, which includes Earth, is known as the Solar System.[3][4] The term exoplanetary system is sometimes used in reference to other planetary systems.

It's the same thing.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Um, a planetary system IS the same thing as a solar system.

No.

​

Dude. From the same link and the rest of the paragraph you so conveniently left off:

Generally speaking, systems with one or more planets constitute a planetary system, although such systems may also consist of bodies such as dwarf planets, asteroids, natural satellites, meteoroids, comets, planetesimals[1][2] and circumstellar disks. The Sun together with its planetary system, which includes Earth, is known as the Solar System.[3][4] The term exoplanetary system is sometimes used in reference to other planetary systems.

It's the same thing.

Sorry, no. I addressed this is in the edit to my post. It's not.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

So a solar system is a planetary system including the nearest star, and a planetary system is a group of planets that may or not rotate around a star, making them a solar system-
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW27kyh7PVM[/yt]

 

[sojourner]

Yeah, apparently the only case where a planetary system is not a solar system is when it orbits a brown dwarf, which still happens to get rated on the spectral scale with stars.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And when we locate a double rogue planet with assorted moons and a ring system, we'll be calling that a planetary system, too.

 

[martok2112]

They are??

Upon checking the Falcon's log they check what system they're in and Han mentions Lando and tells Leia that Bespin is far away but they can make it. To me anyway that would mean they're already in Bespin's system.

I don't think so--if they are already in the Bespin system then how did they get their without hyperdrive. The entire space battle must have taken place within the Hoth system. Flying Spaghetti Monster has the right idea, I think.

Official Star Wars material states the Falcon (indeed many ships) have backup hyperdrives.

Falcon has a class 0.5 hyperdrive with a class 10 backup

 

[Locutus of Bored]

In A New Hope, Han brags about how the Falcon can go ".5 past lightspeed." Now we know that can't mean 1.5c is the top speed of the hyperdrive, because they're zooming across the galaxy in a matter of days rather than 100,000 years. So there have been numerous explanations put forth in the EU and fandom to explain this over the years (one example is mentioned above).

But what if it didn't refer to the hyperdrive speed at all, and simply referred to the Falcon's top speed using conventional (but still low FTL capable using some physics defying doohickey) drives? Hyperdrive navigation takes time, hyperdrive engines probably consume more fuel and/or power, and most space battles or smuggler's maneuvers don't take place in hyperspace, so having an extremely fast conventional drive is important too. Han remarks that the Falcon is the "fastest ship in the fleet" in RotJ even though they're all going to the same destination at the same hyperdrive speed, so conventional drives are obviously what he's referring to there to convince Lando to take the ship.

So, if the Falcon is capable of low FTL speeds even with only a conventional drive operational, it could have limped to the neighboring Anoat System and then on to the Bespin System if they were relatively close, like in a densely packed triple star system (the turbulent nature of which could explain the abundance of asteroids in the system). Han said Bespin was far, but that could be referring to travel time for them without a hyperdrive rather than distance relative to the rest of the galaxy.

 

[Ithekro]

It also could be that the backup hyperdrive, as we call it, is not actually a hyperdrive per say. It could be something (by their standards) far more crude....like a subspace warp drive (Star Trek style tech). Something that if used would easily get you caught by the Empire as they can run your butt down in minutes to seconds with a hyperdrive. The power systems or consumables of the Falcon much not be enough to handle a long distance trip at say warp factor 5 or 12 or whatever.

Lets say, just for giggles, that the Falcon has enough in her to go a week before she just can't go anymore or the crew starves. But her backup drive can go up to (old style TOS/ENT scale) Warp Factor 12. She can go just a bit better than four light years a day at that speed. So a system that is within 30 light years of the Anoat System would be pretty far, but they could make it. Mind you Bespin wasn't the first place they viewed before Han spotted Lando's name.

As for how the Falcon got to the Anoat system in the first place? I don't know. Probably the Imperial Fleet regrouped there away from Hoth to get clear of all those Asteroids. I mean Han had to figure out where they were after Leia asked. If the Imperials hadn't jumped someplace while the Falcon was attached, she wouldn't need to ask, since they'd still be in the Hoth system someplace.

 

[martok2112]

You bring up good points, Locutus.

To clarify the point I made earlier about how "light speed" is just a catchall term for faster than light travel.... Much like warp speed is the general term for FTL in Star Trek.

Ships' speeds in hyperspace are differentiated by the capability of their hyperdrives.

Example: if it takes, say, two hours to get from the Anoat system to Bespin...then a ship with a class 1 hyperdrive will make the trip in two hours. A ship with a class 2 drive will make the trip in 4 hours. If the Falcon's main hyperdrive was functional, she'd make it in one hour. But they had to rely upon the backup class 10 hyperdrive, so the trip would take 20 hours.