Star Wars Books Thread

[kirk55555]

It's not labeled "YA" because it's not a YA book

Wrong on all accounts, esp. what Kanan was doing before the TV show and the murder.

I can obviously only theorize about what happens, but I don't see the book that serves as a prequel to a show with a younger audience then TCW being particularly intense (or good, but that's a different issue). That would be like making a He-Man book in the style of Game of Thrones. Regardless, if it has Rebels characters its either a YA book or a poorly written, dumbed-down book that they just didn't bother labeling YA because they wanted older people to buy it. Anything else wouldn't feature characters from a show for young kids.

It's not as tall, to be sure, but clocks in at 551 pages. Here's a comparison with other Star Wars hardcovers:

- TMP novelization: 324
- Truce at Bakura: 311
- A New Dawn: 383
- TFA novelization: 260
- Catalyst: 352
- Vision of the Future: 692
- Choices of One: 355

Lost Stars is not only comparable in length to a lot of the general audience novels, but is actually longer than most. (For the record, a YA hardcover with similar dimeonsions, Black Widow: Forever Red, clocks in at 401 pages, so it's longer than even the norm in it's genre.)

As far as the complexity goes, it's as complex as any other general audience book in the series.

Well, size can be variable I suppose, and kids books can be pretty long. Thinking about it, while I've obviously never read them the Twilight books look pretty huge. I obviously disagree about the complexity of a YA book compared to a general audience book, though. If it was complex, or written for people over 13-15, it wouldn't be a YA book.

Since you admit you don't read them, I'm not sure how qualified you are on that assessment.

Its an obvious thing. YA books are inferior to general audience books, especially in SW. I have actually read some of the old EU kid books (especially back when I was a kid), and they were definitely not at the level of the General audience books. The same goes for the current YA books. If they were as good as the general audience books, they wouldn't be YA books. Being a YA book automatically makes them inferior, its a style designed to not be as good as a general audience book.

The latter are usually retellings of snippets of the movies (which are canon), and the LucasFilm Story Group disagrees with you on the former.

The story group also disagrees with me about Mandalorians, but I still don't acknowledge the pacifist mandalorians or Sabine's mandalorians as being part of the SW Universe. If I don't like something they say is canon, and the thing in question doesn't effect the movies or the vast majority of books, I feel safe in just ignoring it when it comes to canon. I don't particularly like or agree with what the Story Group says (any group that allows Rebels to exist is either being heavily controlled by Disney executives or just bad at their jobs). That said, even the Story Group wouldn't have any important canon stuff happen in books for kids.

All books exist to get people to buy them, and the target audience has little to do with whether the book is good or not. A lot of classics are technically kids books.

There are classic kid's books. They're classics in that a lot of kids read them and then the kids of those kids read them. That doesn't necessarily make them good books, and definitely doesn't make them superior to general audience books.

As C.S. Lewis put it: “A children's story that can only be enjoyed by children is not a good children's story in the slightest.” On top of that, a lot of the modern YA and similar-age-targeted Star Wars books have been getting a lot of praise from adult reviewers for being stuff that adults can enjoy right alongside the kids.

Its fine if people like the YA books. I like Power Rangers, and its target demographic is in the 5-10 year old range. But, that doesn't change my opinion on the YA SW books, or YA books in general. Some Star Wars fans love everything with the SW name attached, or at least lower their standards with Star Wars. I'm sure the SW YA books are decent for YA books, but they don't match the general audience books.

Not all of them have fake swearing and no sex (Lost Stars, in fact, has both real swear words and a sexual relationship, albeit not described in graphic detail).

It depends on what you consider swearing. I don't really consider words like "damn" or "hell", those can basically be said on kids shows nowadays. I suppose you might get a s*^t or c%^p, or a "bastard", but its not like you'll see the F word or anything. As for a "sexual encounter", I mean they're alluded to and you can infer them (The Solo's and Skywalker's in the old EU didn't get their kids from a stork), but I seriously don't remember any really specific sex scene in a Star Wars book. In the end the books will never be harsher then the book equivalent of PG-13, which I support. What makes the book a "general audience" book is the complexity of story and characters, and having writing that is for a general audience and not written for kids/teens specifically. The actual content when it comes to violence, swaering,etc might not be that different between types of books considering how its Star Wars and you're (thankfully) not getting SW books that try to be Game of Thrones or stuff like that.

 

[JD]

To be fair, the general audience Star Wars books don't have sex, the swearing is all fake SW terms and the violence is generally not that graphic (I don't read the kind of books that focus on that so called "adult" stuff anyway). That's why I prefer to say "general audience" as opposed to "adult" when talking about the SW books written for the age group above the YA books.

Then that means there is really no difference between the YA books and the adult books.

Its an obvious thing. YA books are inferior to general audience books, especially in SW. I have actually read some of the old EU kid books (especially back when I was a kid), and they were definitely not at the level of the General audience books. The same goes for the current YA books. If they were as good as the general audience books, they wouldn't be YA books. Being a YA book automatically makes them inferior, its a style designed to not be as good as a general audience book.

This is one of the biggest loads of bullshit I have ever seen posted on this board. I have read plenty of YA book recently, and I would put plenty of them right up there with the adult books I've read.

 

[kirk55555]

Then that means there is really no difference between the YA books and the adult books.

Sex, violence and/or swearing doesn't make a book an "adult" book. There is a lot of very juvenile "entertainment" that has levels of violence, sex and/or swearing only adults could watch. Having those three things doesn't make a story good or more mature then anything else, it just means its usually restricted to adults. The quality of the writing, characters, etc and the style of writing and tone all contribute to what I'd consider more adult books. But, like I said, I prefer "general audience" as a term more then "adult". Younger people can read and enjoy normal Star Wars books, the books are just written more like normal books and not kid/teen focused stuff. Its like the PG-13 of the book world when it comes to normal Star Wars books, but that doesn't quite fit because YA SW stuff can have pg-13ish things and still be distinctly different from a normal Star Wars books.

This is one of the biggest loads of bullshit I have ever seen posted on this board. I have read plenty of YA book recently, and I would put plenty of them right up there with the adult books I've read.

Its totally fair that you have the opinion. I happen to have the opposite. I think YA books are written in a style particularly made for younger people, and as such are restricted when it comes to what kinds of stories they tell, how they tell them, and what characters they have. It also makes it more likely to have its own teen focused cliches that are pretty annoying (a lot of teen angst and stupid doomed romance stuff, etc). This all combines to something that is inferior compared to a book aimed at a general audience, at least in my opinion. Especially when it comes to Star Wars. If its not a General Audience book, its not worth thinking about. That's my attitude toward the YA books, at least.

Its really only a problem books have, since I've seen movies and TV shows technically aimed at younger audiences that were great (like all the Bruce Timm DC superhero cartoons, SW: The Clone Wars and stuff like Steven Universe). But, those were usually written with more then just the target demographic in mind (even if they all still made sure to please the target demographic, too). YA and kids books are a lot more restricted to their intended audience, and the writing doesn't tend to work for anyone outside the age group its aiming for.

 

[Ithekro]

Most of the older EU 1990s novels would probably qualify as YA today including the old novelizations of the original motion pictures.

 

[WebLurker]

I can obviously only theorize about what happens, but I don't see the book that serves as a prequel to a show with a younger audience then TCW being particularly intense (or good, but that's a different issue). That would be like making a He-Man book in the style of Game of Thrones. Regardless, if it has Rebels characters its either a YA book or a poorly written, dumbed-down book that they just didn't bother labeling YA because they wanted older people to buy it. Anything else wouldn't feature characters from a show for young kids.

I think Rebels is targeting tweens on up, personally. As far as the tone goes, if Rebels, in your opinion is like the '60s Batman show, A New Dawn is closer in tone to the cartoons, like The Batman and Beware the Batman; they take the setting seriously, but don't go too dark and gritty (or like the '80s TMNT cartoons vs. the 2012 Nick TMNT cartoon, if that's more in your wheelhouse).

I obviously disagree about the complexity of a YA book compared to a general audience book, though. If it was complex, or written for people over 13-15, it wouldn't be a YA book.

Why not?

Its an obvious thing. YA books are inferior to general audience books, especially in SW.

So, we're on the same page, which ones are you referring to? If I knew that, I'd have an easier time understanding you. (Funny thing, too, a lot of adult readers have voiced the opinion that the junior novelization version of Force Awakens -- presumably targeted at middle school readers -- was superior to the general audience regular one. Disney's general audience Star Wars novels are also getting a lot less critical acclaim than they "YA" materials. So, obvious? I'm not so sure.)

I have actually read some of the old EU kid books (especially back when I was a kid), and they were definitely not at the level of the General audience books. The same goes for the current YA books.

The current YA Star Wars books are a cut above the stuff from the '90s. The whole "on the same level of the General audience books" is kind of rabbit hole. If its a good book/story, it's a good book/story. You don't say a short story is bad in comparison to a novel because the latter has a more complex story.

If they were as good as the general audience books, they wouldn't be YA books. Being a YA book automatically makes them inferior, its a style designed to not be as good as a general audience book.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh!

The story group also disagrees with me about Mandalorians, but I still don't acknowledge the pacifist mandalorians or Sabine's mandalorians as being part of the SW Universe. If I don't like something they say is canon, and the thing in question doesn't effect the movies or the vast majority of books, I feel safe in just ignoring it when it comes to canon.

Headcanon is the right of every fan, but it's less than useful when discussing the franchise with other people.

I don't particularly like or agree with what the Story Group says (any group that allows Rebels to exist is either being heavily controlled by Disney executives or just bad at their jobs).

Okay.

That said, even the Story Group wouldn't have any important canon stuff happen in books for kids.

(cough) Before the Awakening (cough)

There are classic kid's books. They're classics in that a lot of kids read them and then the kids of those kids read them. That doesn't necessarily make them good books, and definitely doesn't make them superior to general audience books.

Hmm. Wind in the Willows. Chronicles of Narnia. The Hobbit. Treasure Island. Gulliver's Travels. Robinson Crusoe. Anything by Jules Verne. The Jungle Book. Classic kid's books that adults love, are good books, and superior to most general audience books.

Its fine if people like the YA books. I like Power Rangers, and its target demographic is in the 5-10 year old range. But, that doesn't change my opinion on the YA SW books, or YA books in general. Some Star Wars fans love everything with the SW name attached, or at least lower their standards with Star Wars. I'm sure the SW YA books are decent for YA books, but they don't match the general audience books.

I see.

It depends on what you consider swearing.

Anything that's considered vulgar or profane.

I don't really consider words like "damn" or "hell", those can basically be said on kids shows nowadays.

I suppose you might get a s*^t or c%^p, or a "bastard", but its not like you'll see the F word or anything.

Maybe.

As for a "sexual encounter", I mean they're alluded to and you can infer them (The Solo's and Skywalker's in the old EU didn't get their kids from a stork), but I seriously don't remember any really specific sex scene in a Star Wars book.

A Sith-aligned (and adult) Tahiri Velia stuck her hand down a Sith-prisoner (and teenager) Ben Skywalker's pants in the Legacy of the Force series (with quite a few details about what her hand was doing).

In the end the books will never be harsher then the book equivalent of PG-13, which I support. What makes the book a "general audience" book is the complexity of story and characters, and having writing that is for a general audience and not written for kids/teens specifically. The actual content when it comes to violence, swaering,etc might not be that different between types of books considering how its Star Wars and you're (thankfully) not getting SW books that try to be Game of Thrones or stuff like that.

To be honest, I don't want swearing or graphic sex in my reading materials, either. (How'd we get talking about this, again?)

Sex, violence and/or swearing doesn't make a book an "adult" book. There is a lot of very juvenile "entertainment" that has levels of violence, sex and/or swearing only adults could watch. Having those three things doesn't make a story good or more mature then anything else, it just means its usually restricted to adults. The quality of the writing, characters, etc and the style of writing and tone all contribute to what I'd consider more adult books.

But, like I said, I prefer "general audience" as a term more then "adult". Younger people can read and enjoy normal Star Wars books, the books are just written more like normal books and not kid/teen focused stuff. Its like the PG-13 of the book world when it comes to normal Star Wars books, but that doesn't quite fit because YA SW stuff can have pg-13ish things and still be distinctly different from a normal Star Wars books.

Okay?

Its totally fair that you have the opinion. I happen to have the opposite. I think YA books are written in a style particularly made for younger people, and as such are restricted when it comes to what kinds of stories they tell, how they tell them, and what characters they have. It also makes it more likely to have its own teen focused cliches that are pretty annoying (a lot of teen angst and stupid doomed romance stuff, etc). This all combines to something that is inferior compared to a book aimed at a general audience, at least in my opinion. Especially when it comes to Star Wars. If its not a General Audience book, its not worth thinking about. That's my attitude toward the YA books, at least.

However, the YA books have been pretty varied in what the content is, and a lot of them don't have the stuff you've alluded to.

Its really only a problem books have, since I've seen movies and TV shows technically aimed at younger audiences that were great (like all the Bruce Timm DC superhero cartoons, SW: The Clone Wars and stuff like Steven Universe). But, those were usually written with more then just the target demographic in mind (even if they all still made sure to please the target demographic, too). YA and kids books are a lot more restricted to their intended audience, and the writing doesn't tend to work for anyone outside the age group its aiming for.

Uh-huh.

Most of the older EU 1990s novels would probably qualify as YA today including the old novelizations of the original motion pictures.

For years, the "general audience" Star Wars novels were shelved in the YA section of my library.

 

[kirk55555]

I think Rebels is targeting tweens on up, personally. As far as the tone goes, if Rebels, in your opinion is like the '60s Batman show, A New Dawn is closer in tone to the cartoons, like The Batman and Beware the Batman; they take the setting seriously, but don't go too dark and gritty (or like the '80s TMNT cartoons vs. the 2012 Nick TMNT cartoon, if that's more in your wheelhouse).

Well, The Batman took three seasons to get good and Beware the Batman was terrible. But, BtB was definitely a lot darker and more complex then Rebels. It wasn't good, but it wasn't as kiddie and at least tried things that weren't the standard saturday morning stuff. The Batman's first two seasons were closer to Rebels in tone, but I think the characters weren't quite as two dimensional and the writing (while not great in the beginning) was still better. Like I've said before, I see Rebels more as the 80s He-Man cartoon.

Why not?

Because young adult books are specifically written to appeal to young readers. That is their main purpose, to tell a story that the age group will like, not a good story that most people will like. A general audience book just has to try to tell a good story, it doesn't have to write in a restricted style to match a certain age group.

So, we're on the same page, which ones are you referring to? If I knew that, I'd have an easier time understanding you. (Funny thing, too, a lot of adult readers have voiced the opinion that the junior novelization version of Force Awakens -- presumably targeted at middle school readers -- was superior to the general audience regular one. Disney's general audience Star Wars novels are also getting a lot less critical acclaim than they "YA" materials. So, obvious? I'm not so sure.)

Star Wars books don't get much attention by anyone but big SW fans. But, YA books get more press, so more people who review YA books are probably talking about those ones. I'm sure compared to stuff like Twilight or The Hunger Games, the SW YA books look above average.

The current YA Star Wars books are a cut above the stuff from the '90s. The whole "on the same level of the General audience books" is kind of rabbit hole. If its a good book/story, it's a good book/story. You don't say a short story is bad in comparison to a novel because the latter has a more complex story.

I'd say that a book can be good for a specific audience, but not good in general. Little kids get books appropriate to their reading level, but anyone over the age won't bother with. YA books are like that, except they're a little more advanced then books teaching 5 year olds to read.

Headcanon is the right of every fan, but it's less than useful when discussing the franchise with other people.

Its more to mention what parts of continuity I won't be discussing. Besides, Rebels and the YA books will never be of any importance to the vast majority of SW material.

(cough) Before the Awakening (cough)

Had absolutely nothing of value or anything important (and I know because I looked up stuff about those stories). The mediocre Poe Dameron comic is more important to the SW universe, and it doesn't actually have much to do with anything. Anything important about Rey, Poe and Finn will be movie exclusive, at least until after Episode X comes out.

Hmm. Wind in the Willows. Chronicles of Narnia. The Hobbit. Treasure Island. Gulliver's Travels. Robinson Crusoe. Anything by Jules Verne. The Jungle Book. Classic kid's books that adults love, are good books, and superior to most general audience books.

I don't quite put The Hobbit at the same level as kids books. Plus, none of those books are superior to most general audience books, and I say that as someone who likes The Hobbit quite a bit.

A Sith-aligned (and adult) Tahiri Velia stuck her hand down a Sith-prisoner (and teenager) Ben Skywalker's pants in the Legacy of the Force series (with quite a few details about what her hand was doing).

Yeah, I had repressed the memory of that, but I don't think attempted pedophilia/statutory rape (and that's what it was, Ben was 16ish and she was in her thirties) was really meant to be "sexy", it was supposed to be screwed up and shocking and kind of show how far she had fallen. But, still, as bad as that was it wasn't that explicit. Again, to use a phrase I've used before, it didn't really do anything you couldn't do in a PG-13 movie, outside of the fact that it involved a minor and an adult.

However, the YA books have been pretty varied in what the content is, and a lot of them don't have the stuff you've alluded to.

The YA cliches I mentioned are just examples. Its the YA focused writing and restrictions of the format that make a YA book what it is. Writing down to the audience it had to fit with, even though most general audience SW books work well with most people older then, say, 12.

For years, the "general audience" Star Wars novels were shelved in the YA section of my library.

And some stores put violent Anime DVDs right next to Spongebob Squarepants DVDs. That kind of thing isn't a comment on the material, its a comment about how much attention the people shelving it puts into what they're doing.

 

[Ithekro]

Because young adult books are specifically written to appeal to young readers. That is their main purpose, to tell a story that the age group will like, not a good story that most people will like. A general audience book just has to try to tell a good story, it doesn't have to write in a restricted style to match a certain age group.

I'm calling BS on that one. From my experience very few of the older general audience SW novels would be outside the level of YA today. Heir to the Empire and the like would fit it the present day YA category.

 

[WebLurker]

Well, The Batman took three seasons to get good and Beware the Batman was terrible. But, BtB was definitely a lot darker and more complex then Rebels. It wasn't good, but it wasn't as kiddie and at least tried things that weren't the standard saturday morning stuff. The Batman's first two seasons were closer to Rebels in tone, but I think the characters weren't quite as two dimensional and the writing (while not great in the beginning) was still better. Like I've said before, I see Rebels more as the 80s He-Man cartoon.

I've never gotten how those Batman cartoons were "bad," but then again, I do think Batman is one of the most overrated superhero characters in existence.

Because young adult books are specifically written to appeal to young readers. That is their main purpose, to tell a story that the age group will like, not a good story that most people will like. A general audience book just has to try to tell a good story, it doesn't have to write in a restricted style to match a certain age group.

So, YA books need to fit a certain style? Some do (maybe to cash in on trends), but the style will largely depend on the genre, more than anything.

Star Wars books don't get much attention by anyone but big SW fans. But, YA books get more press, so more people who review YA books are probably talking about those ones. I'm sure compared to stuff like Twilight or The Hunger Games, the SW YA books look above average.

Maybe. Most of the reviews I've seen have been on pop culture websites and places like goodbooks.com.

I'd say that a book can be good for a specific audience, but not good in general. Little kids get books appropriate to their reading level, but anyone over the age won't bother with.

(cough) Dr. Seuss (cough)

YA books are like that, except they're a little more advanced then books teaching 5 year olds to read.

They all are, huh?

Its more to mention what parts of continuity I won't be discussing.

Okay.

Besides, Rebels and the YA books will never be of any importance to the vast majority of SW material.

So far. It depends on what the future plans are.

Had absolutely nothing of value or anything important (and I know because I looked up stuff about those stories).

It only shows why Finn was set to defect and how Poe got involved with the Resistance (as well as the political situation that a lot of people claimed was glossed over in the movies). A tie-in doesn't need to be a story that changes the face of the Galaxy to be "important."

The mediocre Poe Dameron comic is more important to the SW universe, and it doesn't actually have much to do with anything. Anything important about Rey, Poe and Finn will be movie exclusive, at least until after Episode X comes out.

Possibly.

I don't quite put The Hobbit at the same level as kids books.

It was originally written for a kid audience. That's a kid's book by any definition.

Plus, none of those books are superior to most general audience books, and I say that as someone who likes The Hobbit quite a bit.

You're frakking kidding me.

Yeah, I had repressed the memory of that, but I don't think attempted pedophilia/statutory rape (and that's what it was, Ben was 16ish and she was in her thirties) was really meant to be "sexy", it was supposed to be screwed up and shocking and kind of show how far she had fallen. But, still, as bad as that was it wasn't that explicit. Again, to use a phrase I've used before, it didn't really do anything you couldn't do in a PG-13 movie, outside of the fact that it involved a minor and an adult.

Yeah, I agree it was meant to be disturbing, but I don't see how that could've been PG-13 period. In all honesty, I think the books have pushed this envelope more than the movies have. In the latter, motherhood comes up, but beyond that, nothing (depending on what you make of Leia's slave girl scenes in ROTJ).

The YA cliches I mentioned are just examples. Its the YA focused writing and restrictions of the format that make a YA book what it is. Writing down to the audience it had to fit with, even though most general audience SW books work well with most people older then, say, 12.

12 and is part of the YA market, too. It up to the specific authors how much they write down (or up), not the arbitrary label in the bookstore.

And some stores put violent Anime DVDs right next to Spongebob Squarepants DVDs. That kind of thing isn't a comment on the material, its a comment about how much attention the people shelving it puts into what they're doing.

Just an anecdote.

 

[kirk55555]

So, YA books need to fit a certain style? Some do (maybe to cash in on trends), but the style will largely depend on the genre, more than anything.

A certain style in that they're all written to very specifically fit a certain age group.

Maybe. Most of the reviews I've seen have been on pop culture websites and places like goodbooks.com.

Again, some people like weird stuff. Twilight was apparently a prety big hit with some people who weren't teenage girls. Doesn't make them good.

They all are, huh?

Well, some YA books might be simpler and less complex then books that teach 5 year olds to read, I don't read any of either group I just assumed YA might be about as far above a kids first book as it is below a general audience book.

So far. It depends on what the future plans are.

There will never be an important plot point to any part of the SW U in a young adult book, and the only thing Rebels might effect (beside itself) is whatever lame kiddie cartoon they put out after Rebels.

It only shows why Finn was set to defect and how Poe got involved with the Resistance (as well as the political situation that a lot of people claimed was glossed over in the movies). A tie-in doesn't need to be a story that changes the face of the Galaxy to be "important."

I thought all of that (that was important, at least) was very obvious. Finn obviously knew what he was being told to do was wrong (even if he would have hard time identifying that as his issue since he'd grown up raised by the First Order). It doesn't matter why Poe joined the Resistance, that's like needing to know how Biggs or Porkins became Rebel fighters. It may be connected to SW, but its unimportant. The Republic stuff, while not spelled out, was something I picked up on pretty easily, and I think Bloodline (which I haven't read yet) goes into more specifics when it comes to the political stuff.

Yeah, I agree it was meant to be disturbing, but I don't see how that could've been PG-13 period. In all honesty, I think the books have pushed this envelope more than the movies have. In the latter, motherhood comes up, but beyond that, nothing (depending on what you make of Leia's slave girl scenes in ROTJ).

In PG-13, they would just imply what was happening without showing it. Books get away with describing things a bit more, but even then it didn't get that specific. You got the gist of what was happening, but it didn't become an explicit sex scene.

12 and is part of the YA market, too. It up to the specific authors how much they write down (or up), not the arbitrary label in the bookstore.

No, its up to Disney. They could say: We want a book for the 10-13 year old demographic, and assign a writer to give them something for those people. Or (for some unexplainable reason) a writer wants to write a book for teenages in the SW universe and pitches it to Disney. The YA/kid books are specifically labeeled for a reason, it has to do with the audience the wrter was aiming for.

I'm calling BS on that one. From my experience very few of the older general audience SW novels would be outside the level of YA today. Heir to the Empire and the like would fit it the present day YA category.

I really disagree. I've read a lot of the old EU, and I can't think of one that fits into the YA group, outside of the few that actually were kid/YA books. Yeah, you're not going to find some violent rapefest like Game of Thrones in the SW EU (thank god), but hardcore adult stuff doesn't make up the majority of general audience books.

 

[Ithekro]

Well, some YA books might be simpler and less complex then books that teach 5 year olds to read, I don't read any of either group I just assumed YA might be about as far above a kids first book as it is below a general audience book.

I am pretty sure you just insulted several dozen authors right there.

 

[kirk55555]

I am pretty sure you just insulted several dozen authors right there.

Well, I was really only trying to insult YA writers like Stephenie Meyer with the "some YA books might be worse then books for 5 year olds" crack. I'm sure most of YA writers are good at writing books their age demographic like, which is what they're trying to do. YA books aren't generally made to be compared to general audience books. Its just that the SW franchise is a big one and has both YA and general audience books, which is when they get compared. Its generally unfair to compare a book restricted to kids and teens to one for a general audience, but when both types of books are in the same franchise it comes up, and the YA books will always lose (in my opinion)

 

[Set Harth]

(The Solo's and Skywalker's in the old EU didn't get their kids from a stork)

Well, Shmi did... sort of.

 

[WebLurker]

A certain style in that they're all written to very specifically fit a certain age group.

In other words, it's all in the marketing?

Again, some people like weird stuff. Twilight was apparently a prety big hit with some people who weren't teenage girls. Doesn't make them good.

The point I was making is that a lot of the YA Star Wars books strongly appeal outside their demographic.

Well, some YA books might be simpler and less complex then books that teach 5 year olds to read, I don't read any of either group I just assumed YA might be about as far above a kids first book as it is below a general audience book.

You do know what "assume" makes out of you and me, right? Also, if you don't read said books in question, you're hardly a credible source on what kind of writing they are or are not.

There will never be an important plot point to any part of the SW U in a young adult book, and the only thing Rebels might effect (beside itself) is whatever lame kiddie cartoon they put out after Rebels.

Maybe, but unless you're psychic or know Doc Brown, how can we "know" what will happen in the future?

I thought all of that (that was important, at least) was very obvious. Finn obviously knew what he was being told to do was wrong (even if he would have hard time identifying that as his issue since he'd grown up raised by the First Order). It doesn't matter why Poe joined the Resistance, that's like needing to know how Biggs or Porkins became Rebel fighters. It may be connected to SW, but its unimportant. The Republic stuff, while not spelled out, was something I picked up on pretty easily, and I think Bloodline (which I haven't read yet) goes into more specifics when it comes to the political stuff.

Whatever.

In PG-13, they would just imply what was happening without showing it. Books get away with describing things a bit more, but even then it didn't get that specific. You got the gist of what was happening, but it didn't become an explicit sex scene.

Whatever.

No, its up to Disney. They could say: We want a book for the 10-13 year old demographic, and assign a writer to give them something for those people. Or (for some unexplainable reason) a writer wants to write a book for teenages in the SW universe and pitches it to Disney. The YA/kid books are specifically labeeled for a reason, it has to do with the audience the wrter was aiming for.

And yet, we get stuff like Lost Stars that could've had the YA label removed and it could've been marketed as a general audience novel and no one would've known the difference.

I really disagree. I've read a lot of the old EU, and I can't think of one that fits into the YA group, outside of the few that actually were kid/YA books. Yeah, you're not going to find some violent rapefest like Game of Thrones in the SW EU (thank god), but hardcore adult stuff doesn't make up the majority of general audience books.

Really. Most of the '90s stuff seems to fit right in. Heck, I read most of them as a teen and didn't see that big a difference.

 

[JD]

Its totally fair that you have the opinion. I happen to have the opposite. I think YA books are written in a style particularly made for younger people, and as such are restricted when it comes to what kinds of stories they tell, how they tell them, and what characters they have. It also makes it more likely to have its own teen focused cliches that are pretty annoying (a lot of teen angst and stupid doomed romance stuff, etc). This all combines to something that is inferior compared to a book aimed at a general audience, at least in my opinion. Especially when it comes to Star Wars. If its not a General Audience book, its not worth thinking about. That's my attitude toward the YA books, at least.

If all you want to say is you don't like YA books that's fine, but you cross a line when you start stating as fact that they are purposefully written to be bad and are automatically worse then a adult book. That is not only untrue but is insulting to people who write YA books, and adults who read them, including me.

 

[kirk55555]

Well, Shmi did... sort of.

Ok, you got me there

The point I was making is that a lot of the YA Star Wars books strongly appeal outside their demographic.

"Strongly" is kind of a big assumption. I've seen a few Star Wars fans online mention enjoying them, and probably more either not mentioning them at all or not liking them. The biggest group is probably people like me who don't bother with them, because they're YA books.

Maybe, but unless you're psychic or know Doc Brown, how can we "know" what will happen in the future?

No major SW event will happen in a book designed for people younger then the general audience. That's pretty obvious. The big canon events all exist to serve either the movies, shows or General audience books. Those are the "Star Wars Universe".

And yet, we get stuff like Lost Stars that could've had the YA label removed and it could've been marketed as a general audience novel and no one would've known the difference.

In your opinion. I'm pretty sure the majority of general audience SW book readers would have easily seen the difference. YA makes itself really obvious just in writing style, much less its clichés (both story and characters) and relative simplicity.

Really. Most of the '90s stuff seems to fit right in. Heck, I read most of them as a teen and didn't see that big a difference.

I see a hell of a difference between books like Hunger Games or Twilight and stuff like Heir to the Empire.

If all you want to say is you don't like YA books that's fine, but you cross a line when you start stating as fact that they are purposefully written to be bad and are automatically worse then a adult book. That is not only untrue but is insulting to people who write YA books, and adults who read them, including me.

I didn't say they were purposefully written to be bad, I said they were written to fit a very specific demographic. Outside of the demographic the book is almost certainly bad compared to general audience books, but that's because the YA books are written to fit a very specific group of people. It doesn't make the writers of the YA books bad writers, it just means they wrote a book (or books) that are meant to be enjoyed by certain readers, instead of a book with a more general appeal. Comparing YA to general audience is, like I've said, about as unhelpful as comparing the "learn to read" SW books to the general audience stuff. The GA books always win, because they were written without a bunch of restrictions and weren't made to fit a very specific purpose.

 

[JD]

^So why was Lost Stars one of the best reviewed Journey to The Force Awakens books if what you say is true?
Have you actually read YA books or are you just making assumptions based on the fact that they are called Young Adult books? Just to be clear I'm actually talking about reading a significant portion of multiple books, not just read about a couple online. I've read the Harry Potter books, the Hunger Games books, the first Immortal Instruments book, the first two Maze Runner books and the first book and novella in The Under The Never Sky series.
I think it's worth keeping in mind that in 2009 the American Library Associate defined Young Adult books as books geared toward ages 12-18, which much the fits the definition I've been using. Really by the time they're that age it's not going to be necessary to write down to your audience that much more than if you were writing for an adult audience.

 

[kirk55555]

^So why was Lost Stars one of the best reviewed Journey to The Force Awakens books if what you say is true?
Have you actually read YA books or are you just making assumptions based on the fact that they are called Young Adult books? Just to be clear I'm actually talking about reading a significant portion of multiple books, not just read about a couple online. I've read the Harry Potter books, the Hunger Games books, the first Immortal Instruments book, the first two Maze Runner books and the first book and novella in The Under The Never Sky series.
I think it's worth keeping in mind that in 2009 the American Library Associate defined Young Adult books as books geared toward ages 12-18, which much the fits the definition I've been using. Really by the time they're that age it's not going to be necessary to write down to your audience that much more than if you were writing for an adult audience.

If they weren't writing down to the audience, it wouldn't be a YA book. That's what a YA book is, a book that is written down from general audience to people of a specific age group. As for the YA books I read, its basically just Harry Potter, at least when it comes to my definition of what a YA book is. When I was a kid I read some of those books that seem to be between YA and kids, like Chronicles of Narnia. The reputation of YA books, along with some of the biggest YA "successes" like Twilight and Hunger Games, match my perception of the genre. I'm not going to read YA books to get more specifically into why I hate them. That's like saying I can't say manure smells bad without spending hours smelling it. I've got more then enough of a "smell" of YA books to form my opinion.

As for Lost Stars being the "best reviewed", how many SW books get reviewed by non SW fans? Not very many. It probably got reviewed because it appeals to the Twilight/Hunger Games/etc crowd, not because it was better then the general audience books. Angsty teens/romance basically gives a YA book a free pass from what I've seen. In a world where Twilight became a major movie franchise, YA books are obviously not getting popular because of quality. Its just who hits the clichés in the right way to draw enough young adults to read the books.

 

[Ithekro]

For clarity, A New Dawn is listed as the 37th best Star Wars novel on Goodreads, just below Battle Surgeons and above I, Jedi.

Lost Stars is 179 below Jedi Eclipse and above Rebel Stand. It has a much higher rating than both of those novels.


The last book on the list, at 334, is Heir to the Jedi.

The worst rating seems to be one of the old Lando novels.

 

[WebLurker]

"Strongly" is kind of a big assumption. I've seen a few Star Wars fans online mention enjoying them, and probably more either not mentioning them at all or not liking them. The biggest group is probably people like me who don't bother with them, because they're YA books.

I can only cite what I've observed.

No major SW event will happen in a book designed for people younger then the general audience. That's pretty obvious. The big canon events all exist to serve either the movies, shows or General audience books. Those are the "Star Wars Universe".

So sure are you (esp. when YA and general audience books have the same canonical weight?)?

In your opinion.

Which I'm not alone in.

I'm pretty sure the majority of general audience SW book readers would have easily seen the difference. YA makes itself really obvious just in writing style, much less its clichés (both story and characters) and relative simplicity.

When the "Journey to the Force Awakens" program was published, reviews for Aftermath were very mixed, and it was generally concluded that the book was overhyped as being the crown jewel of the "Journey" line. From all the reviews of Lost Stars I saw, it was pretty consistently cited as a something that fell between the cracks and the book that LucasFilm should've pushed to the forefront of the "Journey" line.

And I have to say that I find it laughable, at best, that you're insisting that you know all about a book that you've never read.

I see a hell of a difference between books like Hunger Games or Twilight and stuff like Heir to the Empire.

They're different genres and styles, but the comprehension level doesn't seem that different.

I didn't say they were purposefully written to be bad, I said they were written to fit a very specific demographic. Outside of the demographic the book is almost certainly bad compared to general audience books, but that's because the YA books are written to fit a very specific group of people. It doesn't make the writers of the YA books bad writers, it just means they wrote a book (or books) that are meant to be enjoyed by certain readers, instead of a book with a more general appeal. Comparing YA to general audience is, like I've said, about as unhelpful as comparing the "learn to read" SW books to the general audience stuff. The GA books always win, because they were written without a bunch of restrictions and weren't made to fit a very specific purpose.

All books need to be measured on a case-by-case basis. Also, the Star Wars GA books have had far less consistency in regards to reception than the "YA" market has. At the end of the day, good writing trumps the target audience (esp. since most GA Star Wars novels have precious few differences from the actual YA Star Wars stuff -- e.g. the junior novelizations, Before the Awakening, and their counterparts, so, yeah, they can be fairly compared).

If they weren't writing down to the audience, it wouldn't be a YA book. That's what a YA book is, a book that is written down from general audience to people of a specific age group.

That's a pretty narrow view.

As for the YA books I read, its basically just Harry Potter, at least when it comes to my definition of what a YA book is. When I was a kid I read some of those books that seem to be between YA and kids, like Chronicles of Narnia. The reputation of YA books, along with some of the biggest YA "successes" like Twilight and Hunger Games, match my perception of the genre. I'm not going to read YA books to get more specifically into why I hate them. That's like saying I can't say manure smells bad without spending hours smelling it. I've got more then enough of a "smell" of YA books to form my opinion.

In other words, you basing your opinions on what you think, not what you know, and what you've only heard second-hand. There's no credibility in your argument here.

As for Lost Stars being the "best reviewed", how many SW books get reviewed by non SW fans?

I've seen quite a few professional reviews.

Not very many. It probably got reviewed because it appeals to the Twilight/Hunger Games/etc crowd, not because it was better then the general audience books. Angsty teens/romance basically gives a YA book a free pass from what I've seen. In a world where Twilight became a major movie franchise, YA books are obviously not getting popular because of quality. Its just who hits the clichés in the right way to draw enough young adults to read the books.

You've already admitted that you don't even know anything about the topic here, so why should I believe you on this?

 

[Ithekro]

Heir to the Empire came out when I was 14, and I read most if not all of the novels that came out from that until Star by Star, at which point too many novels were coming out at once and I had finished college. After that has been sporadic at best.