Star Wars Books Thread

[WebLurker]

I had trouble really getting into 'Outbound Flight'. The plot was forgettable (seriously, I've forgotten most of it) the tie-in to the NJO stuff left a bad taste and also tying it into the prequel characters felt a little too cute.

None of that bothered me, but I will agree that Anakin and Obi-Wan did feel a little shoe-horned.

The characterisation of Jorus C'baoth seemed very un-Jedi like. It made sense for him to act like that when it was his half crazed clone, but with the man himself it didn't feel right.
Mind you, in hindsight I could see Dooku (maybe pre-Tyranus) filling a similar role.

Sure, it did feel like Zahn was just writing the same character, rather than a new one.

For me the fundamental flaw of Thrawn's backstory was the whole thing with the Chiss being this super advanced little isolationist Empire at the fringes of known space.

The now-non-canon Clone Wars: Secret Missions series established that the Jedi Council and the higher ups in the Old Republic gov. were aware of the Chiss, although it sounded like the Chiss weren't known beyond that. The Old Republic MMORPG apparently also established in Legends that the Chiss were active thousands of years ago, so they're more like a species that was lost and re-discovered.

It follows a pattern that seemed to start with the old RPG source books where certain things were made out to be newer developments than they really need to be. Another example is the idea that the Mon Calamari (the only ones with ships big and powerful enough to go up against the Star Destroyers) were a new race with which that the Empire had just made first contact. I felt it didn't fit in very well with the idea that this is a very old and very lived in galaxy. It has it's mysterious little corners, but like Tolkien Middle Earth most of it is very old remnants of what came before and there's very little in the way of "new" things. That more of a traditional sci-fi universe where it really should be more like high fantasy in that regard.

Well, this was early on, when the setting was still being hammered out.

I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but it also bothered me how they also had a nasty habit of defining races by the role in which one of their members first appeared in the movies.

Like for instance how they made Rodian's big on bounty hunting because Greedo was a bounty hunter, how the Corellians were all brash rogues because that's Han's people, Twi'leks were mostly an enslaved race because of Oola, or that Nikto, Weequay and Gamorrean were subject races of the Hutts because a bunch of them served as Jabba's guards (ignoring that Jabba had just as many human guards.) That kind of thing. It seemed very unimaginative.

Agreed. Now, sci-fi does often use a dominate characterization for alien cultures to keep things simple (like Klingons warrior traditions). But, it is nice that the canon Rodians are not defined as bounty hunters or the Corellians as Han Solo-types (so far), as those were the worst assumptions, in my opinion.

The most bothersome to me was the whole thing about the Empire being "humans only" racists and the Emperor himself being sexist because we never saw any non-human male Imperials. It felt like an almost cartoonishly petty level of villainy.

This one has been more or less removed from canon. The anti-alien thing has had some traces left, but is less prevalent.

That the Republic wasn't a single culture but a collection of thousands of cultures, each with their own history and identities while the far from being a dominant culture, the Empire was a souless *lack* of culture that was consuming the galaxy.

I like how the prequels and the TV shows have made the galaxy seem much older and cosmopolitan and that of the EU concepts they did adopt, they almost always made them much more interesting by giving them a grander context. As I've previously discussed at length elsewhere; the most notable one being how they translated the Mandaloran culture for TCW. So much more interesting than the race of space Viking/Spartan/Crusader Knights the EU made them out to be.

I know a lot of people weren't very happy with the Mandalorian change. I was purely indifferent (although Rebels seems to be trying to filter in some of the "Viking" Manalorians back into canon).

 

[Reverend]

The now-non-canon Clone Wars: Secret Missions series established that the Jedi Council and the higher ups in the Old Republic gov. were aware of the Chiss, although it sounded like the Chiss weren't known beyond that. The Old Republic MMORPG apparently also established in Legends that the Chiss were active thousands of years ago, so they're more like a species that was lost and re-discovered.

Again, I'm totally OK with there being a race of blue skinned, red eyed people who are from an obscure world out near the Unknown Regions or Wild Space that was never part of the Republic. Worlds like Kamino establish that such things were possible.
What never sat right with me was that they seemed to be portrayed as almost as powerful and certainly more effective than the Empire to the point where Palpatine was reticent to tangle with them. Again though, on it's own you can sort of justify it, but they did this several times in the EU and never really bothered to develop the idea further.

Well, this was early on, when the setting was still being hammered out.

I think it was more an artefact of this stuff coming from RPG sourcebooks, rather than anything Lucas may have come up with himself.
The people who write for those things aren't exactly know for being massively inventive and they're usually writing in broad tropes and in such a way that works for the games they were making. Which is fine since that's their job, but it bled though into a lot of the novels (especially the early ones) and never really went away.
It's also why there was this bizarre thing where the Imperials were treated like a separate civilisation in it's own right, separate from the rebellion because that's how it's supposed to be set-up for purposes of the game mechanics.

Agreed. Now, sci-fi does often use a dominate characterization for alien cultures to keep things simple (like Klingons warrior traditions). But, it is nice that the canon Rodians are not defined as bounty hunters or the Corellians as Han Solo-types (so far), as those were the worst assumptions, in my opinion.

Yeah it's something I very much appreciated with the prequels and the TV shows is that you had all these exotic aliens, but they were just people. Some of them were criminals, bounty hunters and thugs, but some of them were senators, doctors, even Jedi.

This one has been more or less removed from canon. The anti-alien thing has had some traces left, but is less prevalent.

There's still certainly an element of prejudice from certain core-world humans towards non-humans (especially the very alien looking races) but it's not clear how much of that is actual racism/human supremacy and how much is prejudice or resentment against worlds that had been either Separatists or neutral during the Clone Wars or had since openly defied (or "betrayed" as they would see it) the Empire.

What I didn't like was the idea that Palpatine was a racist and a misogynist. It felt like very lazy characterisation.

I know a lot of people weren't very happy with the Mandalorian change. I was purely indifferent (although Rebels seems to be trying to filter in some of the "Viking" Manalorians back into canon).

As I've gone into elsewhere; my main take-away was that they took a boring, hackneyed, fetishised idea of a warrior culture and made it a thousand times more interesting by putting it in context.
All the old "way of the warrior" stuff is still there but it's portrayed as a vestige of a barbaric time that's been overly romanticised by a minority of extremists and fringe groups who feel their place in the galaxy has been diminished from what it once was. To me this felt like Lucas saying beware anyone who says "we can make <insert country name here> great again!" because it's an ideal that never really existed and trying to force the real world into that fantasy always leads to disaster, usually via authoritarian rule and oppression.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I just finished Star Wars Battlefront: Twilight Company.
What a genuinely interesting and refreshingly different take on Star Wars. I loved it.

 

[WebLurker]

Again, I'm totally OK with there being a race of blue skinned, red eyed people who are from an obscure world out near the Unknown Regions or Wild Space that was never part of the Republic. Worlds like Kamino establish that such things were possible.
What never sat right with me was that they seemed to be portrayed as almost as powerful and certainly more effective than the Empire to the point where Palpatine was reticent to tangle with them. Again though, on it's own you can sort of justify it, but they did this several times in the EU and never really bothered to develop the idea further.

Okay, although a Galaxy is a huge place, so it would kind of make sense that there'd be multiple superpowers. (I actually think that the Chiss made more sense than the Hapans, personally.)

I think it was more an artefact of this stuff coming from RPG sourcebooks, rather than anything Lucas may have come up with himself.
The people who write for those things aren't exactly know for being massively inventive and they're usually writing in broad tropes and in such a way that works for the games they were making. Which is fine since that's their job, but it bled though into a lot of the novels (especially the early ones) and never really went away.
It's also why there was this bizarre thing where the Imperials were treated like a separate civilisation in it's own right, separate from the rebellion because that's how it's supposed to be set-up for purposes of the game mechanics.

Well, from Heir to the Empire onward, the authors were trying to remain consistent with the world-building in the RPG, and that bled over (like how Jodo Cast was was invented to be a "level easy" Boba Fett and an easy way out of your players met or killed Boba Fett before he did in the movies -- "Guess what, that wasn't really Boba Fett, but Jodo Cast" -- and then became a full on comic character, who now has a full life laid out in Legends).

However, the RPG world-building was always designed as suggestions (in fact, everything was presented as one researcher's findings to add the in-universe possibility that he got some things "wrong" when game masters chose to do things differently.

Yeah it's something I very much appreciated with the prequels and the TV shows is that you had all these exotic aliens, but they were just people. Some of them were criminals, bounty hunters and thugs, but some of them were senators, doctors, even Jedi.

Yeah, good point.

There's still certainly an element of prejudice from certain core-world humans towards non-humans (especially the very alien looking races) but it's not clear how much of that is actual racism/human supremacy and how much is prejudice or resentment against worlds that had been either Separatists or neutral during the Clone Wars or had since openly defied (or "betrayed" as they would see it) the Empire.

What I didn't like was the idea that Palpatine was a racist and a misogynist. It felt like very lazy characterisation.

I think the popular Legends explanation was that he may have used anything form of fearmongering that worked to keep his power. Now, it seems like the misogyny is gone and the speciesism is at much more realistic levels when compared to real-life racism.

Again, I'm totally OK with there being a race of blue skinned, red eyed people who are from an obscure world out near the Unknown Regions or Wild Space that was never part of the Republic. Worlds like Kamino establish that such things were possible.
What never sat right with me was that they seemed to be portrayed as almost as powerful and certainly more effective than the Empire to the point where Palpatine was reticent to tangle with them. Again though, on it's own you can sort of justify it, but they did this several times in the EU and never really bothered to develop the idea further.

Okay, although a Galaxy is a huge place, so it would kind of make sense that there'd be multiple superpowers. (I actually think that the Chiss made more sense than the Hapans, personally.)

I think it was more an artefact of this stuff coming from RPG sourcebooks, rather than anything Lucas may have come up with himself.
The people who write for those things aren't exactly know for being massively inventive and they're usually writing in broad tropes and in such a way that works for the games they were making. Which is fine since that's their job, but it bled though into a lot of the novels (especially the early ones) and never really went away.
It's also why there was this bizarre thing where the Imperials were treated like a separate civilisation in it's own right, separate from the rebellion because that's how it's supposed to be set-up for purposes of the game mechanics.

Well, from Heir to the Empire onward, the authors were trying to remain consistent with the world-building in the RPG, and that bled over (like how Jodo Cast was was invented to be a "level easy" Boba Fett and an easy way out of your players met or killed Boba Fett before he did in the movies -- "Guess what, that wasn't really Boba Fett, but Jodo Cast" -- and then became a full on comic character, who now has a full life laid out in Legends).

However, the RPG world-building was always designed as suggestions (in fact, everything was presented as one researcher's findings to add the in-universe possibility that he got some things "wrong" when game masters chose to do things differently.

Yeah it's something I very much appreciated with the prequels and the TV shows is that you had all these exotic aliens, but they were just people. Some of them were criminals, bounty hunters and thugs, but some of them were senators, doctors, even Jedi.

Yeah, good point.

As I've gone into elsewhere; my main take-away was that they took a boring, hackneyed, fetishised idea of a warrior culture and made it a thousand times more interesting by putting it in context.
All the old "way of the warrior" stuff is still there but it's portrayed as a vestige of a barbaric time that's been overly romanticised by a minority of extremists and fringe groups who feel their place in the galaxy has been diminished from what it once was. To me this felt like Lucas saying beware anyone who says "we can make <insert country name here> great again!" because it's an ideal that never really existed and trying to force the real world into that fantasy always leads to disaster, usually via authoritarian rule and oppression.

Okay.

 

[Reverend]

Okay, although a Galaxy is a huge place, so it would kind of make sense that there'd be multiple superpowers. (I actually think that the Chiss made more sense than the Hapans, personally.)

On a galactic stage "superpower" would I think be overstating it. You'd have a handful little empires like the Zygerrians that control a few systems, maybe a sector at most, but nothing that could seriously challenge the Republic/Empire directly. That civilisation is *huge* with something like a million worlds and almost as many different races and it's been on the galactic stage in one form or another for 25,000 years. Indeed the Zygerrians are a prime example of what happens when one of these upstart powers get too big for their boots: they got slapped down by the Jedi.

As for the Hapes: sure the Chiss made more sense because the Hapes were completely bonkers and so very OP.

I think the popular Legends explanation was that he may have used anything form of fearmongering that worked to keep his power. Now, it seems like the misogyny is gone and the speciesism is at much more realistic levels when compared to real-life racism.

This is another problem with the old EU is that there was never a consistent message on *anything* with each author taking whatever liberties and interpretations that suited them, resulting in a confused mess.
Nevertheless, the idea that Palpatine was himself a racist misogynist and not just a manipulator who would leverage those feelings in others was fairly prominent one in the EU, though IIRC a lot of this stemmed from KJA's works which always had a trashy, low brow quality to it.

However, the RPG world-building was always designed as suggestions (in fact, everything was presented as one researcher's findings to add the in-universe possibility that he got some things "wrong" when game masters chose to do things differently.

Whatever the intent, it's obvious the novel authors were just using that world building material without really thinking about the intent and it's significant to gaming mechanic. And as a result, we inherited a bunch of very strange ideas.

 

[WebLurker]

On a galactic stage "superpower" would I think be overstating it. You'd have a handful little empires like the Zygerrians that control a few systems, maybe a sector at most, but nothing that could seriously challenge the Republic/Empire directly. That civilisation is *huge* with something like a million worlds and almost as many different races and it's been on the galactic stage in one form or another for 25,000 years. Indeed the Zygerrians are a prime example of what happens when one of these upstart powers get too big for their boots: they got slapped down by the Jedi.

I see, although even in Legends, only some of the Galaxy was explored, leaving a lot of space for other huge empires and confederacies to be hiding in, but I will concede that the Old Republic and Empire were certainly the biggest guys in their part of the GFFA.

As for the Hapes: sure the Chiss made more sense because the Hapes were completely bonkers and so very OP.

Somewhere, I read that Legends explained it by simply having Palpatine choose to leave them alone for whatever reason, which lead to the rank and file officers speculating like mad about it (the reference book listed theories that went from plausible -- the Hapans were being kept intact as an example of sorts -- to inane -- like the Emperor being infatuated with the Hapan queen). Canon, so far, has taken the simpler explanation of just simply assuming that Hapes never existed.

What's "OP" mean?

infatuatedThis is another problem with the old EU is that there was never a consistent message on *anything* with each author taking whatever liberties and interpretations that suited them, resulting in a confused mess.
Nevertheless, the idea that Palpatine was himself a racist misogynist and not just a manipulator who would leverage those feelings in others was fairly prominent one in the EU, though IIRC a lot of this stemmed from KJA's works which always had a trashy, low brow quality to it.[/quote]

I suppose. I know that the Admiral Daala character's backstory depended on misogyny in the ranks to work. I'm not sure that I thought Anderson's stuff was that bad, although it's not high on my lists of favorites. I will concede that it's really pulpy (even more so than the movies are, IMHO).

Whatever the intent, it's obvious the novel authors were just using that world building material without really thinking about the intent and it's significant to gaming mechanic. And as a result, we inherited a bunch of very strange ideas.

Well, this is a franchise that's always played loose with sci-fi rules and centers around an order of space monk warriors that use sci-fi magic and sci-fi swords co-existing alongside traditional sci-fi space soldiers and actual magic users, etc. The franchise is a collection of strange ideas, if you think about it.

 

[Reverend]

What's "OP" mean?

Overpowered. It's a gaming term.
There's a line somewhere in 'Courtship' that asserts that the Hapes had the ability to wipe out the Imperial remnant in less than a year, the potential for which is what predicated the whole plot about Leia marrying into their royal family....which is a whole other mess of bonkers plotting.

I suppose. I know that the Admiral Daala character's backstory depended on misogyny in the ranks to work. I'm not sure that I thought Anderson's stuff was that bad, although it's not high on my lists of favorites. I will concede that it's really pulpy (even more so than the movies are, IMHO).

KJA tended to rely too much on cheep thrills and the grotesque in lieu of any actual substance. His villains were one-dimensional, the plots were overblown, poorly constructed affairs with holes you could fly a Death Star through and protagonist that just plain acted stupidly because that's what the plot demanded.
He's not a *terrible* writer persee, just overwhelmingly mediocre. Always aiming low and never really respecting his audience.

One telltale thing for spotting a sub-par author (and it's one KJA used all the damn time) is if they habitually have their characters eating and/or drinking during expositional scenes. Whether it's two people sharing a meal while discussing the plot or someone eating breakfast alone while they process the events of the previous chapter.
It's a very old and very cheep trick that allows to author to describe their actions ("he said as he took another bite", "she thought to herself as she took another sip"etc.) amidst the dialogue or internal monologue without needing to actually think about building a dynamic and compelling scene with depth and subtext. A lot of readers don't notice since it's such an easily relatable, everyday activity but if you pay attention, the hacks use it a lot. It's the kind of amateurish trick you'll find in a "how to write novels" instructional book.

It doesn't have to be eating either, the method can be extended to any mundane task, but eating means they're so lazy they didn't even bother to vary it.

Well, this is a franchise that's always played loose with sci-fi rules and centers around an order of space monk warriors that use sci-fi magic and sci-fi swords co-existing alongside traditional sci-fi space soldiers and actual magic users, etc. The franchise is a collection of strange ideas, if you think about it.

But that's the exact opposite of my point. Those sourcebooks were too quick to stick to the standard sci-fi generic tropes and almost totally ignored Star Wars's unique hybrid mix of mythology, fantasy, pulp sci-fi, westerns and samurai movies (to name a few.)

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but it also bothered me how they also had a nasty habit of defining races by the role in which one of their members first appeared in the movies.

Like for instance how they made Rodian's big on bounty hunting because Greedo was a bounty hunter, how the Corellians were all brash rogues because that's Han's people, Twi'leks were mostly an enslaved race because of Oola, or that Nikto, Weequay and Gamorrean were subject races of the Hutts because a bunch of them served as Jabba's guards (ignoring that Jabba had just as many human guards.) That kind of thing. It seemed very unimaginative.

To be fair, isn't that a pretty standard sci-fi trope? Take Star Trek, for example: logic became the defining principle of Vulcan society just because Spock talks about it. Likewise Worf talks about honour and suddenly honour the core of Klingon values. It is unimaginative, but it's what everyone does.

 

[Set Harth]

When The Clone Wars added a Duros bounty hunter character I just laughed. Because I remembered the Duros bounty hunters in KOTOR and how pathetically useless they were. Though everybody was really easy to kill in that game except for maybe the last boss or two. Muggles just don't stand a chance against most Force adepts.

 

[Hound of UIster]

I
Like for instance how they made Rodian's big on bounty hunting because Greedo was a bounty hunter, how the Corellians were all brash rogues because that's Han's people, Twi'leks were mostly an enslaved race because of Oola, or that Nikto, Weequay and Gamorrean were subject races of the Hutts because a bunch of them served as Jabba's guards (ignoring that Jabba had just as many human guards.)

For someone who argues about the old Expanded Universe creating one-note stereotypical races from the movie source material, you seem to be rather eager to embrace and create these tropes when the old Expanded Universe clearly didn't lay down a definitive racial character for twi'leks or at least in the way you noted. If you go by the three main non-canonical sources about them a) KJA's material b) the Republic comics and c) TCW. Two of these focuses on harsh environment of their native planet and the political structure whereby an entire cadre of leaders can be exiled and collectively sentenced to death upon the death of one of them. And the final one which pretty makes them space France under occupation by the Confederacy, which is a far cry from a space harem pastiche that you see in Jabba's court.

You are right that the Expanded Universe did suffer from these one-note races such as the Vong, Mandalorians and Neimodians. The problem is that the examples you cite above (with exception to Mandalorians) really aren't symptomatic of this.

 

[Mr Light]

I just finished my second read of Crucible. Not a great book, but a decent epilogue to the EU on the whole. It actually ends with the Big Three deciding to retire from public life, which is uncanny since it was written long before the Lucas sale and the EU scrapping. The villains were on the lame side but I liked that Vestara and Mirta Gev were hired hands for them.

I forgot that the EU was leading up to a quest to find Mortis. Damn, that would have been awesome. Maybe Luke fulfills his father's destiny and remains on Mortis to become the new Father or something?

 

[Tuskin38]

I forgot that the EU was leading up to a quest to find Mortis

Woah really? That's kind of neat. Too bad they didn't get to do that.

 

[Set Harth]

It's probably better they didn't, because of the all too real chance that they misunderstood the arc.

Anakin's destiny as of the conclusion of the arc was the same as it was understood to be before the show existed. The Father even said so. It's just that people act as if "Overlords" was the whole story.

 

[Mr Light]

The final two books of the EU Legends continuity, Invincible and Crucible, were about Mortis and the Ones indirectly. At the end of Invincible, Luke sends Jedi Knights out on a quest to find where Mortis is now.

 

[JD]

I just heard on The Star Wars Show that the Darth Vader comic is ending in a couple months, do we know if another ongoing series will be replacing it?

 

[Hound of UIster]

Gillen is leaving Marvel for indies. Presumably someone will replace him and they will relaunch. My money is on Waid.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Marvel oughta end the core Star Wars book and relaunch it with a permanent creative team instead of having a new artist for every new story arc.

 

[WebLurker]

Marvel oughta end the core Star Wars book and relaunch it with a permanent creative team instead of having a new artist for every new story arc.

At least each story has the same artist. My favorite Star Wars comic series is Knight Errant, and that changed artists a lot mid-story. I can adjust to a new artist at the beginning of a new trade paperback, but turning the page and having stuff rendered a little differently takes me out of the story somewhat.

(Actually, isn't it normal for comic series to have regular turnarounds on artists? I know Mark Bagely was the only Ultimate Spider-Man illustrator for the first several years of its life, but I got the idea that that was an exception to the general rule.)

 

[C.E. Evans]

(Actually, isn't it normal for comic series to have regular turnarounds on artists? I know Mark Bagely was the only Ultimate Spider-Man illustrator for the first several years of its life, but I got the idea that that was an exception to the general rule.)

Yep, but It wasn't always like that. Used to be that a book had the same artist for a couple of years. Then it became one year. And now, it's about six months or even less (just long enough to squeeze out a trade volume). Indie comics are really where there are fewer turnarounds on artists.

 

[Reverend]

Yeah, one should not underestimate how much a book can change when they switch artists.

I remember way back when my first introduction to the Star Wars comics was the 'Dark Lords of the Sith' graphic novel and I really enjoyed it until the last two or so books when the art changed dramatically and it took me right out of the story.
The characters didn't look the same, the backgrounds were all drawn differently and it was all coloured differently. It was like a whole other book.