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Star Trek XI has failed... Trek Lit

One exception is the duplicate Picard disappearing along with his shuttle in the shuttle bay, but that could have something to do with the weird vortex they were in, perhaps the entity in the vortex finally got him. Gillian Taylor's disappearance didn't affect the future because she was a nobody. Just like the bum who phasered himself.

Exactly. When discrepancies have occurred in the past, people have made up rationalizations to explain them. So why is this one any harder to rationalize?

Scientifically speaking, it's nonsense that a person's effect on history is a function of their importance in human terms. The universe doesn't care what people think about another person. Physically, a person is an ensemble of particles, and the particles that make up Gillian Taylor are no different than the particles that made up Albert Einstein or Zefram Cochrane. Alter the interaction of particles and you alter the flow of events in the universe, period.

Looked at another way: Say that in 1990 in the original history, Gillian Taylor stepped into a crowded elevator and caused a man to miss it. Therefore, the man stayed to make conversation with a pretty girl, and they went for coffee, and one thing led to another, but it went badly and they broke up, and on the rebound she went on a blind date with another guy, and it didn't work out between them but the guy really hit it off with her roommate, so the guy and the roommate got married and had a kid who grew up to be Zefram Cochrane's physics teacher. You can never say who's going to be important and who isn't.

So saying that nothing changed because she wasn't important is not a solid explanation, it's just a convenient handwave to rationalize a fictional contrivance. Because time travel in fiction happens however the story requires. And you can either make up a rationalization or just shrug it off and accept that it's only make-believe.

Here, we have another fictional contrivance, the idea that both Trek timelines still exist, and there's a very easy, convenient handwave available called real quantum theory. And that allows us to believe what I'm sure every Star Trek fan on Earth wants to believe, namely that the Prime timeline still exists. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would resist accepting that.
 
I do think it comes down to suspension of disbelief, the question being whether you are ready to suspend your disbelief immediately, or whether you require an additional rationale in order to do so.

Either way, at the end of the day, either you're going to accept the fictional premise, or you're going to reject it, based on your desire to experience and enjoy the story.
 
3) Combination of (1) and (2): everything in the film takes place in an alternate reality, including the only sketchily described 24th-century portions; so while Spock and Nero do overwrite history, it was never 'our' Spock, 'our' Nero, nor 'our' history.
This explanation I hadn't thought of. But the future that Spock and Nero came from also includes Picard and Data at least. So how can you prove or disprove that it's a different reality?

It's a hypothesis that relies on the filmed material alone. If one takes Countdown into account, it makes it harder to suppose that Spock and Nero come from a different 24th century in the first place. (A lot of the characters are in different positions and there's all the new tech, but that can be explained just as well by simple passage of time as by alternate realities.)

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
The one I was talking about earlier -- Spock continuing to exist after Nero went through the black hole. And, no, there's no information establishing that there was any special technobabble to protect him from timeline changes, either.
I'd like to remind you that 'The City on the Edge of Forever' had no "special technobabble" to explain why the Enterprise landing party still existed. No one even asked that question. Fans just accepted that being near a time portal is what protected them. Therefore it can also be accepted that Spock wasn't erased because he was close to the black hole (which, in this movie, is a time portal).

1. The Guardian of Forever is clearly a very different type of time travel mechanism than a black hole. What is true of the Guardian is not necessarily true of the black hole.

2. Again, there is no evidence in the film that Spock was past the event horizon. Period. All we know is that he entered the black hole after Nero -- and didn't cease to exist when Nero entered it.

3. "The City on the Edge of Forever" also establishes that the original timeline that Kirk and Spock came from continued to exist in some way, since the newspaper clippings of Edith Keeler's death had to come from somewhere other than just the ether.
 
I think some people are forgetting that the overriding rule of all fictional temporal physics is, "Time travel works in whatever way the story requires." Past franchises with time travel, including Trek, have often made contradictory (or even self-contradictory) assertions about temporal mechanics. For instance, why didn't the removal of Gillian Taylor from history cause any timeline changes? How did Sisko and Kira actually remember history being changed in "Accession?" And don't even get me started on "Year of Hell," "Relativity," and "Storm Front." Berman/Braga temporal theory is pretty much gibberish. So to complain about an alleged inconsistency of temporal physics now, as if it were somehow a novelty, is rather disingenuous. Especially since the new movie's grasp of temporal physics is considerably better than most of what's preceded it.

Okay, now that's just scary talk...it's like you're saying it's FICTION or something...

:lol:
 
Exactly. When discrepancies have occurred in the past, people have made up rationalizations to explain them. So why is this one any harder to rationalize?

Here, we have another fictional contrivance, the idea that both Trek timelines still exist, and there's a very easy, convenient handwave available called real quantum theory. And that allows us to believe what I'm sure every Star Trek fan on Earth wants to believe, namely that the Prime timeline still exists. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would resist accepting that.
Rationalization is a bit different from guesswork. It requires evidence. The difference between the time travel in 'Time Squared' and the time travel in other episodes is the presence of the weird vortex, so it's logical to assume that duplicate-Picard's disappearance had something to do with the vortex. Further supporting evidence comes from the fact that duplicate-Picard says there is an entity in the vortex that wants him specifically.

When it comes to rationalization, the more plausible explanation is preferable to the less plausible explanation. The most plausible explanation is that the original timeline no longer exists because that's how it was shown in numerous other episodes. The explanation that the time travel created a parallel universe is less likely because it contradicts what we've seen before. Real quantum theory is irrelevant. Star Trek has never been hard science fiction. If it was, there'd be no faster-than-light travel or numerous alien races. For the parallel-universe-explanation to become more plausible than the timeline-erased-explanation, there needs to be more evidence to support it.
 
Rationalization is a bit different from guesswork. It requires evidence. The difference between the time travel in 'Time Squared' and the time travel in other episodes is the presence of the weird vortex, so it's logical to assume that duplicate-Picard's disappearance had something to do with the vortex. Further supporting evidence comes from the fact that duplicate-Picard says there is an entity in the vortex that wants him specifically.

Oh, like that's the only time-travel episode with a "weird vortex." What about "Yesterday's Enterprise"? What about First Contact? For that matter, the "black holes" in the new movie could also be described as "weird vortices." "Weird vortex" is not evidence, it's a handwave. You want to rationalize it so you latch onto a detail that allows you to do so. You could easily do the same in this case, if you chose.


When it comes to rationalization, the more plausible explanation is preferable to the less plausible explanation. The most plausible explanation is that the original timeline no longer exists because that's how it was shown in numerous other episodes.

No. There is no way that is plausible. I've explained many times why the idea of a timeline "overwriting" another timeline is wrong, impossible, and absurd. The most plausible interpretation is that when it's looked like a timeline was being overwritten or erased, the reality was that the two versions of the timeline coexisted in parallel and our perception of the situation was flawed. It's always a mistake to assume that the way things look to the observer represent the true situation, especially when dealing with matters so far outside conventional experience.

For thousands of years, it appeared to most observers that the Sun circled the Earth. So they would've thought that a story based on that assumption was "more plausible" than a story based on the assumption that the Earth circled the Sun. And they would have been wrong. The more plausible answer is not the one that tracks with what people have assumed in the past. It's the one based on better information.


The explanation that the time travel created a parallel universe is less likely because it contradicts what we've seen before.

No, it doesn't. It's easy to reconcile with a little imagination. Besides, as I said, Trek temporal theory has contradicted itself many times in the past, so any perceived contradiction here shouldn't be a dealbreaker. The only thing keeping you from glossing over this contradiction the same way fans gloss over or rationalize all the other hundreds of contradictions within existing Trek canon is that, for whatever reasons of your own, you choose not to.


Real quantum theory is irrelevant. Star Trek has never been hard science fiction.

Of course it's relevant, because Star Trek is not something that exists independently of its creators. If the creators of new ST choose to base their storytelling on real quantum theory, then that is entirely relevant to how the stories are told. Different ST creators have been wildly inconsistent in their use of science, admittedly. (Even this movie is inconsistent within itself; the quantum physics is good, but the astrophysics is totally absurd.) But they've all shaped the fiction they wrote or produced according to their own preferences. There isn't one ST, because it's a fictional creation of many different minds. We choose to buy into the pretense that it's a consistent whole, but it never really has been. It's multiple different interpretations of a shared premise. So it's illogical to say that the preferences of the people creating new ST are irrelevant to the ST they create. If ST ended up being produced by someone who wanted it to be hard SF and knew how to make it that way, then it would be hard SF for the duration of that producer's tenure.

Besides, it's relevant because, as I said, it gives you an excuse. All time travel fiction is ultimately implausible on some level. It's just a question of how willing you are to suspend disbelief and how you choose to rationalize the problems with the concept. As long as you want the Prime universe to still exist, all you need is something to let you rationalize that belief. The Many-Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics provides a handy, ready-made rationalization, one that not only meshes with the intent of the people in charge of shaping the ST franchise for the foreseeable future, but that has the added benefit of being scientifically plausible for a change. What's not to like?


If it was, there'd be no faster-than-light travel or numerous alien races.

Non sequitur. I've read plenty of hard science fiction featuring both these things. I've even written some. Now, if you'd said telepathy and humanoid aliens, then you'd have a point. (And magic instant translators, and "wall" force fields, and godlike superbeings, and preprogrammed evolution, and...)

Of course, hard SF is beside the point, because as I said, the scientific credibility is just a bonus, something that makes it easier to buy the new Word of God about how time travel works in Trek. It is fiction, after all, so it's ultimately only a question of your willingness to accept the conceits of the story.

For the parallel-universe-explanation to become more plausible than the timeline-erased-explanation, there needs to be more evidence to support it.

Come on, all the evidence you have for your "Time Squared" argument is "A vortex did it." Surely you can make up something just as arbitrary here. The only difference is that you've had years to get used to "Time Squared" and this is more of a novelty.
 
As I mentioned before my evidence comes from dialogue within the episode: "Yes... it's an entity, a life-form which recognizes the Enterprise as an entity with me as the brain, and it wants me". So it's logical to conclude that the entity claimed Picard once the ship got deeper into the vortex.

I'm not sure that Trek temporal theory has contradicted itself many times. The only thing that comes to mind is 'Tomorrow is Yesterday', which doesn't make any sense under any temporal theory that I know of.

Your idea that it only appeared to the viewer that the timeline was changing doesn't explain why the Enterprise-E remained unchanged in First Contact. How could being next to a time portal cause the Enterprise-E to travel to a parallel universe in which they didn't exist? And what would it look like from the point of view of the original universe? The Borg sphere goes into the vortex and the Enterprise-E vanishes for no apparent reason?
If the many-worlds temporal theory is correct, then what's the point of all the effort and sacrifice involved in restoring the original timeline? Why not figure out a way to travel to the original universe instead of struggling to change the new universe into something resembling the original universe? It makes all the effort meaningless. This is why it's hard for me to accept it.
 
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I've been Looking Inside the novelization of the new movie on Amazon.com and I just found an interesting conversation on page 221-222 about alternate timelines and it kind of mirrors this debate. I'm not sure if it's in the movie.

McCoy: So this changes all our histories or what? Does it change the general thread of history and not personal pasts or does everything change? Do we change physically, too? I kind of like the way I am. If we alter the future so that everyone has transwarp beaming, I'm not sure I want to go there.

Sulu: Our history is only altered if you think of time as a single thread.

Uhura: Then possibly it's more like we're living out a parallel strand than an alternate one. If you believe that the future is immutable and that it already exists, what we're doing is changing the past. That same future, or if you prefer, parallel one, will continue on whatever plane it exists. Only ours, only this one here and now, will be altered.

Sulu: If this one is changed, does it only affect this one, or are all the others affected as well?

Chekov: A ripple effect across the entire continuum. But can such a ripple affect only parallel existences, or, if it is strong enough can it also affect a future that has already happened?
 
The debates between pro-film and anti-film I've seen on this forum are mostly friendly, polite and productive.

And yet... only a few months ago, the regulars here were being told that we were not friendly, polite and productive towards VOY and Janeway fans. And that we deliberately used humour and clever word play to mock them in their hour of misery. And even though we rearely agree with each other on every point anyway.

So it's all in the eyes of the beholders, and depends upon which side of a fence you're on at the time.
 
Yes, that conversation is in the movie. I don't think with the exact same words, but similar.
 
As I mentioned before my evidence comes from dialogue within the episode: "Yes... it's an entity, a life-form which recognizes the Enterprise as an entity with me as the brain, and it wants me". So it's logical to conclude that the entity claimed Picard once the ship got deeper into the vortex.

That's an ad hoc conclusion that you draw because it justifies what you want to believe. You want the episode to make sense in the context of the rest of Trek, so you find a piece of evidence that allows you to believe that and be satisfied. Never forget that this is all made up. It's not a question of proving whether something is really possible. It's a question of whether you're able to suspend disbelief about an imaginary account. And that's a subjective judgment. Personally, I think "Time Squared" is far more implausible than the new movie.


I'm not sure that Trek temporal theory has contradicted itself many times. The only thing that comes to mind is 'Tomorrow is Yesterday', which doesn't make any sense under any temporal theory that I know of.

Examine just about any Voyager time-travel episode, especially the wild stuff like "Year of Hell," "Relativity," and "Shattered." They're totally incoherent. Then there's the disagreement between stories where history is resistant to change ("Assignment: Earth," ST IV) and ones where even a small change can alter everything ("City on the Edge," "Past Tense").

And every "temporal theory" you know of is an imaginary construct, a handwave to justify a work of fiction. I know a few things about real temporal theory, and I can assure you that every time-travel story you have ever seen in your entire life violates physical law and is effectively impossible. Under real temporal theory, it would probably be impossible to go back in time in the first place, since time warps would tend to undergo destabilizing feedback that would collapse them almost immediately. And even if you could go back in time, you couldn't "change history," either by overwriting it (impossible) or creating a divergent timeline. As a component of the quantum reality state corresponding to the history you know, you'd be unable to perceive or enter any quantum state besides that one. You'd be compelled to relive the history you already know. So an episode like "Assignment: Earth" or a film like ST IV is moderately consistent with real temporal theory, whereas the "changing history" stories you're so loyal to are complete impossibilities.

So it's not a question of "theory." Stop pretending that you're talking about something real and rational. It's made up. It's a question of what fictitious construct allows you to suspend disbelief about a story that's not actually possible in strict physical terms. The only "theory" that applies is dramatic theory, in which events serve the needs of the story and the goal is not to create a strictly cohesive reality but merely to facilitate the audience's willing suspension of disbelief.


Your idea that it only appeared to the viewer that the timeline was changing doesn't explain why the Enterprise-E remained unchanged in First Contact. How could being next to a time portal cause the Enterprise-E to travel to a parallel universe in which they didn't exist?

It could explain it if you wanted it to. It's all made up. It's all a question of what you're willing to rationalize. You're attached to the "erased history" model and are unwilling to broaden your mind to encompass an alternative idea. So you're clinging to the handwaves you use to justify your favored model and refusing to consider handwaves that could be used to justify other models.

I could spend time writing a detailed explanation of how I interpret ST temporal theory. I have a consistent model that can explain virtually everything, even seemingly contradictory things. It's based on the parallel-histories model but can account for both coexisting timelines and the appearance of "overwritten" timelines. I could spell it out for you, but I won't, because it doesn't matter. It's still my own imaginary construct for justifying a set of imaginary stories and their arbitrary dramatic choices. You can come up with your own imaginary justification for the new movie if you're willing to.

If the many-worlds temporal theory is correct, then what's the point of all the effort and sacrifice involved in restoring the original timeline?

For one thing, it's the only way to get back home. It's ultimately a personal journey. And of course, if the characters don't understand how temporal physics really works, they may believe they have to restore their old history, and their actions and emotions would be just the same even if they're based on a mistaken belief.

But ultimately, the answer is that it's more dramatically satisfying if reality is believed to be in jeopardy. The bottom line is always that these are stories, and the temporal theory is subordinate to the needs of the drama.

Why not figure out a way to travel to the original universe instead of struggling to change the new universe into something resembling the original universe? It makes all the effort meaningless. This is why it's hard for me to accept it.

Indeed. The multiple-timelines model is dramatically unsatisfying. But let's look at the big picture. Are you saying that you want to believe the Prime Trek timeline no longer exists? Because ultimately that's what it boils down to. Not a word of this is real. It's just a bunch of made-up stories. The only "reality" it has is in the minds of the audience. So you're not at the mercy of some external set of rules that force you to a conclusion you find undesirable. The ST universe you care about exists within your own mind, and is a result of your own personal choices and beliefs about how to interpret this huge, unwieldy, somewhat sloppy set of loosely interconnected narratives. So if you want to believe that both universes coexist, you have the power to invent a justification for it. Just use your imagination.

You've devoted a lot of thought and effort to arguing why this can't be the case. But what does that accomplish? Why not try devoting the same kind of thought and effort to finding a way that it can be the case?
 
Yes, that conversation is in the movie. I don't think with the exact same words, but similar.

'Exact same words'? Can you imagine a conversation like this taking place in Abrams' product? :lol:

The reason it seems like an addition, Extrocomp, is because it appears only in an extremely abbreviated, blink-and-you'll-miss-it form in the film itself, which doesn't actually say anything about the various timeline's situations vis-à-vis one another (the closest it comes is Uhura wondering if they are an alternate timeline). The full thing is either something ADF expanded on, or was present in the original script but culled from the final product (too cerebral, no doubt).

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Some of these questions about Nero will undoubtedly be answered in IDW's upcoming Nero mini, though I've no idea how closely this will cleave to whatever the screenwriters might have had in mind.

That's true, thanks. Speaking of Nero, one thing I did like about Countdown was its exploration (however basic) of how Romulan civilians use space, and how citizens serve the Star Empire in a manner other than military service. It was a take on the Romulans we rarely see, as most writing centres on the armed forces or the senate, not "the people".

A slightly off-topic reply... I'd read a very good book in which Tuvok goes undercover in Romulus. Dealt quite a bit with the depiction of the Romulan people. Don't remember the name... anyone?
 
Either Lost Era: Catalyst of Shadows by MWB or Titan: Taking Wing by the M&M team.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Here, we have another fictional contrivance, the idea that both Trek timelines still exist, and there's a very easy, convenient handwave available called real quantum theory. And that allows us to believe what I'm sure every Star Trek fan on Earth wants to believe, namely that the Prime timeline still exists. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would resist accepting that.
Oh, I think the history still exists, in the same way that the alternate history of "Yesterday's Enterprise" exists, as a history that gets time looped, as a path that history has to go through to get to the divergence point in the past. It's a Schroedinger's History, in a way. It's there, it happened, but it's not accessible. If that makes sense.

(Believe me, it all makes sense in my head.)

All the talk by the writers about quantum mechanics is interesting. I also think it's a dodge. A back door in case the movie had failed, to revert back to the old continuity, to give long-time fans a hook into the new continuity, to give them the feeling that everything they've known didn't get a bullet put in it. But now that the movie's been the success that it's been, I doubt that the bleeding edge of the franchise will ever return to the "original" continuity.

Prior to the movie, I believed in the "Parallels" explanation. After seeing the movie, I don't really buy that any longer.
 
All the talk by the writers about quantum mechanics is interesting. I also think it's a dodge. A back door in case the movie had failed, to revert back to the old continuity, to give long-time fans a hook into the new continuity, to give them the feeling that everything they've known didn't get a bullet put in it. But now that the movie's been the success that it's been, I doubt that the bleeding edge of the franchise will ever return to the "original" continuity.

I don't think it was ever intended as a back door for returning the movies to the old continuity. I think it was stated out of respect for the existing Trek continuity, to say "We're not negating or invalidating the Star Trek you grew up loving, because we love it too." And I think it was secondarily in order to establish that it was valid for the novels, comics, online MMORPG, etc. to continue telling stories set in the old continuity, no matter what the movies do.

And that's exactly what they're doing. Star Trek Online is committed to telling stories set in the original continuity in 2409. The novels are continuing to tell stories set in the original continuity in the 2380s, and I'm sure they won't suddenly stop once they catch up with the destruction of Romulus. And I wouldn't be surprised to see IDW comics following up on Countdown or tying into ST:O. For that matter, if some future TV producer 15 or 20 years from now decided to revisit the original continuity (which is likely, given how nostalgia goes in cycles), nothing's going to stop them.

That's why it's basically pointless to argue that the old timeline has ceased to exist, or that it's a "loop" that closes off as of 2387 and has no future beyond that. Because none of the tie-in licenses is going to be bound by such an assumption. For all practical purposes, the original continuity will continue to exist as a setting for storytelling. As long as there's creator and audience interest in seeing original-continuity post-2387 fiction, such fiction will exist, and that won't change just because some people cling to the "overwriting" model of time travel.
 
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