Star Trek XI - Canon violation by canon violation

[ST-One]

If you'd like to talk about the differences between the two universes, that would be fine and entertaining. But please remove the words "canon violation" from your post title. Canon has not been violated. Two universes, two histories. Each is canon within its own self.

Done.


But then there is Old canon, and New canon. . . Nevermind.

But even in the OC (old canon) there is nothing that tells us that James Kirk was born in Iowa.

Until Star Trek, for all we knew, he could have been born in Tycho City on the Moon. Now we know that he was born on the USS Kelvin (which was probably en route to Tarsus IV in the unaltered timeline).

 

[CommanderRaytas]

True. Really, people, it's not a big deal.

 

[Vanyel]

Wouldn't the only real canon violation between the two Universes be the Kelvin itself, and by extension, Starfleet technology, with it's warp engine design and viewscreen? Theoretically the two Universes shared a common history before Nero's appearance. But the Kelvin would seem to violate that.

If what I say is true, then Nero did not create a new divergent Timeline from the one of ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY; but instead entered a Universe very similar to the one we've seen on TV and the movies, but with some differences. Differences like point defense phasers as well as phaser banks, a different style warp nacelle design, a ship with a single warp nacelle, and a viewscreen that is also a window.

So he never screwed with Spock and Kirk Prime's history, but Spock and Kirk from Earth 2, to borrow a phrase from DC Comics.

 

[Skellington]

There are no canon violations.

There are contradictions between this film and previous bits of canon, just as there are between most previous versions of Trek. To use the oft-cited - if trivial - example, different episodes of TOS give wildly varying eras for the time-period in which the shows take place, ranging from at least as little as two hundred years up to four or five centuries. All of those figures are co-equal as canon; they just contradict one another.

I would say that not only are there no canon violations but also there are no contradictions; not with a mythology that allows for omnipotent beings, a multiverse and the editing of the past. "Q clicked his fingers" is a perfectly valid (if lame) answer to any perceived continuity issue. But in principle theorising and thinking things through (for a bit) can be a worthy pursuit.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Wouldn't the only real canon violation between the two Universes be the Kelvin itself, and by extension, Starfleet technology, with it's warp engine design and viewscreen? Theoretically the two Universes shared a common history before Nero's appearance. But the Kelvin would seem to violate that.

If what I say is true, then Nero did not create a new divergent Timeline from the one of ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY; but instead entered a Universe very similar to the one we've seen on TV and the movies, but with some differences. Differences like point defense phasers as well as phaser banks, a different style warp nacelle design, a ship with a single warp nacelle, and a viewscreen that is also a window.

So he never screwed with Spock and Kirk Prime's history, but Spock and Kirk from Earth 2, to borrow a phrase from DC Comics.

If the Gorn from "Arena" is a fearsome lizard monster and not a guy in an obvious rubber suit, and William Shatner and Chris Pine can both be James Kirk despite not looking identical, than the the same rules apply to the Treknology - the TOS Enterprise is a state-of-the-art futuristic starship, just like the starships in STXI are. We're just seeing them through modern eyes.

As for different weapons - it was 30 years prior to TOS. Things can change. And, I'm sure TOS would have had much more impressive effects had they been possible in the 60's!

 

[M'Sharak]

Wouldn't the only real canon violation between the two Universes be the Kelvin itself, and by extension, Starfleet technology, with it's warp engine design and viewscreen? Theoretically the two Universes shared a common history before Nero's appearance. But the Kelvin would seem to violate that.

If what I say is true, then Nero did not create a new divergent Timeline from the one of ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY; but instead entered a Universe very similar to the one we've seen on TV and the movies, but with some differences. Differences like point defense phasers as well as phaser banks, a different style warp nacelle design, a ship with a single warp nacelle, and a viewscreen that is also a window.

So he never screwed with Spock and Kirk Prime's history, but Spock and Kirk from Earth 2, to borrow a phrase from DC Comics.

If you do a little digging around, I think you'll probably find that several other people who post here have offered similar hypotheses about just which universe(s) we might have been watching in the last movie and whether the main story played out in a branching timeline or in an already-existing one at which Nero and OldSpock arrived by falling down the cosmic rabbit-hole (or the red matter wormhole, as the case may be.)

Not sure why you chose a thread which had been inactive since the last movie's opening week, nearly three years ago, as the place to post your thoughts, though.

 

[Vanyel]

Wouldn't the only real canon violation between the two Universes be the Kelvin itself, and by extension, Starfleet technology, with it's warp engine design and viewscreen? Theoretically the two Universes shared a common history before Nero's appearance. But the Kelvin would seem to violate that.

If what I say is true, then Nero did not create a new divergent Timeline from the one of ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY; but instead entered a Universe very similar to the one we've seen on TV and the movies, but with some differences. Differences like point defense phasers as well as phaser banks, a different style warp nacelle design, a ship with a single warp nacelle, and a viewscreen that is also a window.

So he never screwed with Spock and Kirk Prime's history, but Spock and Kirk from Earth 2, to borrow a phrase from DC Comics.

If you do a little digging around, I think you'll probably find that several other people who post here have offered similar hypotheses about just which universe(s) we might have been watching in the last movie and whether the main story played out in a branching timeline or in an already-existing one at which Nero and OldSpock arrived by falling down the cosmic rabbit-hole (or the red matter wormhole, as the case may be.)

Not sure why you chose a thread which had been inactive since the last movie's opening week, nearly three years ago, as the place to post your thoughts, though.

Sorry, I thought I was pointing out a canon violation and explaining my reasoning behind it. If that intent was not clear, I do apologize.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Zombie thread!

 

[Enterprise is Great]

Dang. I've wandered into a Walking Dead episode...yikes!

 

[BorgPhil]

Regardless of how you feel about the violations, or ah, timeline alterations, let's list them, in order. If possible, document your source.

XI: James T. Kirk is born aboard a shuttlecraft escaping the destruction of the USS Kelvin

ST IV, TVH : Kirk tells Gillian he was born in Iowa.

Non-canon: Gene Roddenberry stated that Kirk was born in Riverside, IA.

Kirk: 'No, I'm from Iowa. I only work in outer space.'

I think Kirk was trying to be cute and evasive with Dr. Taylor. It was close enough to the truth without making him sound crazy to 20th century ears.

My only real problem was the fact that the Jellyfish was from "Stardate" 2387. I could buy the stardate system evolving from the Gregorian calender to the way it was depicted in TOS, to how it was depicted in the TOS movies, to the TNG era (similarly to how the warp scale had to be recalibrated every once in a while), and I could buy that the disruption in this timeline made the stardate system stay like it was in the Kelvin-era, but when they stated that the Jellyfish was from that stardate, it was kind of odd.

Yep, imo this is the only canon violation in the whole film, and it annoys me as well everything else can be explained away by the incursion of the Narada. You can kind of fudge the stardate issue if you wanted to (eg in 2386 in the Prime Universe they decided to revert to the 'old' system of stardates, which just happens to be the same as our new universe is using)

 

[MisterPL]

So somehow the appearance of the Narada kept Scotty from losing his finger?

That's a tale that needs tellin'.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

So somehow the appearance of the Narada kept Scotty from losing his finger?

That's a tale that needs tellin'.

Well, in TOS Star Trek Canon, Scotty is both missing a finger and NOT missing a finger .

In TOS, there are scenes where we can see that he has a missing finger, and other close-ups scenes of Scotty's hand using a "hand stand-in" that had all five fingers.

 

[Tiberius]

Re: Star Trek XI - Timeline Alterations Line by Line

Regardless of how you feel about the violations, or ah, timeline alterations, let's list them, in order. If possible, document your source.

XI: James T. Kirk is born aboard a shuttlecraft escaping the destruction of the USS Kelvin

ST IV, TVH : Kirk tells Gillian he was born in Iowa.

Non-canon: Gene Roddenberry stated that Kirk was born in Riverside, IA.

And his mum would have made it to Earth in time to give birth to him in Iowa if the kelvin hadn't been forced to reroute to investigate a lightning storm in space...

Plus what Hermiod said.

 

[sbk1234]

Chekov's age seemed to jump around a bit from TOS to the movie...

 

[BillJ]

Chekov's age seemed to jump around a bit from TOS to the movie...

Chekov's age, given as 22 in The Deadly Years which takes place in 2265, and the star date format given by the Jellyfish computer are the only two out and out contradictions that I can really think of. Chekov would've been 15 in 2258.

 

[Nighthawk]

The JJ film is a new timeline in an alternate universe. Has nothing to do with established Canon of the orginal Star Trek time line.

No canon was changed from what we have come to understand as ST history.
Please lets not get cought up on something that was explained in the last movie.

If Nero and Spoke had never gone though the blackhole the evetns of the last movie would never have happened.

Also Roddenberry stated he was properly born on Earth in Iowa but it was never fact as of where city.

It's just been established when the city if Riverview had passed a city ordance declairng a date in April if I remember as Kirk's birthdale.

The line from ST:IV is the closest we got to Kirk stating he was from Iowa but works in space.

 

[Dukhat]

Chekov's age seemed to jump around a bit from TOS to the movie...

Chekov's age, given as 22 in The Deadly Years which takes place in 2265, and the star date format given by the Jellyfish computer are the only two out and out contradictions that I can really think of. Chekov would've been 15 in 2258.

There's a way around the Chekov thing. Since he was born years after Nero's incursion, it's quite possible nuChekov isn't even biologically the same person as original Chekov, if the timeline diverged so much that Chekov's parents had their child at a different point in time than in the original timeline.

Come to think of it, there's a way around the stardate thing too. Since we have no idea about history from the end of Nemesis to the point Spock leaves on the Jellyfish, for all we know Starfleet changed their stardate system at some point in that time to reflect the real date.

 

[Nighthawk]

So somehow the appearance of the Narada kept Scotty from losing his finger?

That's a tale that needs tellin'.

Well, in TOS Star Trek Canon, Scotty is both missing a finger and NOT missing a finger .

Jimmy Doohan lost a finger when he stormed the beach at Normandy, June 6th, 1944. He was wonded during a friendly fire incident.

That was reason for him realy losing a finder.

But hey you never know if Nero was the reason he never lost that finder.....

 

[Psion]

Chekov's age seemed to jump around a bit from TOS to the movie...

Chekov's age, given as 22 in The Deadly Years which takes place in 2265, and the star date format given by the Jellyfish computer are the only two out and out contradictions that I can really think of. Chekov would've been 15 in 2258.

There's a way around the Chekov thing. Since he was born years after Nero's incursion, it's quite possible nuChekov isn't even biologically the same person as original Chekov, if the timeline diverged so much that Chekov's parents had their child at a different point in time than in the original timeline.

Come to think of it, there's a way around the stardate thing too. Since we have no idea about history from the end of Nemesis to the point Spock leaves on the Jellyfish, for all we know Starfleet changed their stardate system at some point in that time to reflect the real date.

Yep. I've proposed elsewhere that Mama and Papa Chekov had Pavel a few years earlier as a butterfly effect of the Narada incursion. For fun, I've tacked on the suggestion that in the NuTimeline they had another little boy and named him Piotr ....

Your stardate explanation is plausible, too. I do wish Starfleet would stop messing with stuff like stardates and warp drive scales.

Regarding Kirk, I think I've mentioned elsewhere that there's evidence the production crew knew they were getting into "trouble" with having James born in space. Concept art from the film referred to the Kelvin as the Iowa. I'm not sure why that changed.

 

[UFO]

There's a way around the Chekov thing. Since he was born years after Nero's incursion, it's quite possible nuChekov isn't even biologically the same person as original Chekov, if the timeline diverged so much that Chekov's parents had their child at a different point in time than in the original timeline.

Come to think of it, there's a way around the stardate thing too. Since we have no idea about history from the end of Nemesis to the point Spock leaves on the Jellyfish, for all we know Starfleet changed their stardate system at some point in that time to reflect the real date.

Yeah, Chekov's age probably isn't a big deal but surely star dates are real dates. What would be the point in having a dating system that is "unreal"? Also, while Starfleet (actually the Federation I guess) could change to a more primitive dating system based on the birth of a religious figure from ancient Earth, I can't imagine why most Federation members would be keen on that (the Vulcans in this case!)? Even so, such a change wouldn't explain why "nuTOS" is using said primitive system. When was the dating changed in the prime universe anyway? When the Federation was established?