Star Trek Wrath of Khan backlash?

[Spocklight]

Thanks so much @fireproof78 we're really trying to get more ambitious with the show and the production in general with each episode and the recreation of surely the greatest cinematic campfire scene of all time seemed like a must. I really can't recommend those beans enough!

 

[publiusr]

It was as cool as hell when I was a child. It also had some quite horrific violence and gore for a trek movie which gave the film a nice 'edge' and maturity to it.

That's the early 80's for you. Science fiction was safe before amputating light sabers and ALIEN. John Carpenter...SCANNERS. Movies had danger then.

To me TWOK has ever been a slasher movie--but with starships doing most of the bleeding

 

[Vger23]

Thanks so much @fireproof78 we're really trying to get more ambitious with the show and the production in general with each episode and the recreation of surely the greatest cinematic campfire scene of all time seemed like a must. I really can't recommend those beans enough!

Thought your Star Trek V retrospective was very entertaining! Interesting how you all pretty much enjoyed it and saw lots of good in it, despite it being such a generally maligned film. I personally enjoy the heck out of it, and I think a lot of the hate for this movie stems from two "unnatural" places:

1. Shat Backlash
2. Group-think when popular word-of mouth went south

Easy for me to say though, just because I happen to disagree with popular opinion! But, I also happen to love I and III and like to a much lesser extent IV and VI...so I guess I'm weird!

 

[Spocklight]

I valiantly defended Search for Spock against one of my co-hosts @Vger23 I feel your pain lol, thanks for the good write up buddy, really does mean a lot

 

[Sybok Was Wrong]

THE FINAL FRONTIER is maybe my private favorite. Shatner had a better grasp of what TOS really was, than he gets credit for. Thats: characters, cheap look, corny humor, action, and the bonus of a message, too. That's TREK to me.

I know that THE VOYAGE HOME and THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTY are better executed "films".

THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK is 1000x better than TWOK! The theme of friendship and loyalty beats the plodding KHAN any day.

Not to mention, TSFS has a pure 80'a vibe. That's a plus.

TWOK is my least favorite TOS film. A "revenge" plot doesn't excite me. I've never thought Khan was an interesting character. I've always been suprised THAT was the episode that hooked Harvey Bennett.

("Space Seed" was OK ...I guess. Popular thinking is it's among the best episodes. No way- its been elevated by TWOK when there's so many superior episodes.)

 

[Vger23]

THE FINAL FRONTIER is maybe my private favorite. Shatner had a better grasp of what TOS really was, than he gets credit for. Thats: characters, cheap look, corny humor, action, and the bonus of a message, too. That's TREK to me.

I know that THE VOYAGE HOME and THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTY are better executed "films".

THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK is 1000x better than TWOK! The theme of friendship and loyalty beats the plodding KHAN any day.

Not to mention, TSFS has a pure 80'a vibe. That's a plus.

TWOK is my least favorite TOS film. A "revenge" plot doesn't excite me. I've never thought Khan was an interesting character. I've always been suprised THAT was the episode that hooked Harvey Bennett.

("Space Seed" was OK ...I guess. Popular thinking is it's among the best episodes. No way- its been elevated by TWOK when there's so many superior episodes.)

I think Space Seed stood out to Bennett because Spock, at the end, almost literally says "wouldn't it be cool if we could see what happened as a result of your decision here today," which, when you're pressed for ideas, was probably seen as the ultimate calling for a follow-up sequel.

 

[Mojochi]

I've seen lots of backlash toward TWoK, or at least dissent, when it's heralded as the best of the TOS franchise, which I think it is, from a purely dramatic standpoint. That movie gives you the feels, unlike any other, imho, but that is by far not the prevailing opinion anymore. In my experience, that feeling is mostly relegated to the folks, like me, who saw it in theaters. I find many people now tend to gravitate to Voyage Home as their favorite, because quite frankly, it is the most timelessly accessible, commercially speaking. Anybody can sit down & enjoy that movie regardless of their affiliation with Trek fandom, or lack there of. The character relationships are well established, and it is the most openly comedic in nature, which heightens the fun for the average viewer (but to me was a weakness actually)

After many years of hindsight, I actually don't think any of those movies are bad. Each one has its own charm, and strives for a goal it achieves, & there's campiness in all of them, to one degree or another. The debating about their quality is always about the perspectives people have on what Star Trek is supposed to be, but what should be universally clear, 50 years later, is that it can be whatever we want it to be, & that's ok.

 

[Spocklight]

Thanks so much for all the amazing feedback on this subject leading up to the recording of our Undiscovered country focused episode this weekend, you have no idea how useful its been especially in viewing TUC this week in an entirely different context from before (this would have been my third watch of the film over the years). I'll save my reveal of which I think is better TWOK or TUC for when I record the ep, not that my opinion on this subject is in any way important lol. It's just a different take coming at this movies as a film fan primarily rather than a Trekkie. I look forward to compiling some of the comments from here for use in the episode, great stuff.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Thanks so much for all the amazing feedback on this subject leading up to the recording of our Undiscovered country focused episode this weekend, you have no idea how useful its been especially in viewing TUC this week in an entirely different context from before (this would have been my third watch of the film over the years). I'll save my reveal of which I think is better TWOK or TUC for when I record the ep, not that my opinion on this subject is in any way important lol. It's just a different take coming at this movies as a film fan primarily rather than a Trekkie. I look forward to compiling some of the comments from here for use in the episode, great stuff.

at the time I think VI was seen as better than II.. remember talking about it here :
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/new-making-of-tmp-book.249796/page-3#post-10280893

 

[Tesophius]

I used to dislike TWOK because it's not the StarTrek I want, I'm more of a TMP fan. However, recently I've grown to enjoy it quite a bit as a fun action flick. It's a very clean, straightforward production. Not as brilliant as TMP but still good. Although I'm not a fan of the idea of a Vulcan Katra.

 

[Armus]

TMP and TWOK are my favorites. I think TWOK is arguably the best one but it's not as good as many TOS episodes and it is ultimately a drawn out cat and mouse chase battle the Ent and The Reliant. TSFS has some great moments and I enjoyed seeing the crew sticking together but it is just ludicrous, Spock should have stayed dead and the Enterprise should not have been destroyed. TVH is just too lightweight and contemporary. TFF merits another revisit but I never found it particularly memorable or compelling. I have serious issues with TUC, the characters seem so cynical, bloated, and jokey and Klingons quoting Shakespeare was just too much.

 

[CorporalClegg]

TUC is an okay film, at best. Yeah it oozes maudlin sentiment and it's pretty nice to look at, but the script is just such a mess, and the whole plot is just so utterly ridiculous. It's the perfect example of when the conceit becomes more important than the art itself. (A problem that has plagued Trek throughout all its years.)

I think it would have been better if, during the campfire screen, Iman transformed into Ziggy Stardust and broke into song.

As for WOK, I like the backlash against it is much the same as that of nuTrek. in that it steams from it not being what fits into certain fans "definition" of Trek.

All Trek films have their share of problems, WOK just has the least. Though, if speaking purely in terms craftwork, TMP is head and shoulders above the rest, even if it's really self-indulgent and plodding

 

[thetrellan]

It's one of the better movies, but far from my favorite. I prefer Voyage Home, Undiscovered Country and Into Darkness on (my subjective assessment of) objective grounds. I freely admit that Final Frontier is of inferior quality to Wrath, but I'm still more likely to watch Final Frontier, because it's more fun.

The first time I saw Wrath of Khan, I actually didn't like it at all, because I felt like it didn't do justice to "Space Seed," one of my favorite episodes. I'm not talking about continuity or accuracy issues, at all. Thematically, I liked the way "Space Seed" ended, with mystery and potential for some new kind of human society, and I didn't like how Wrath short-circuits all that. Plus, Khan is so clever in "Space Seed." He arrives in a position of complete disadvantage and almost takes the Enterprise. Contrast that with Wrath, in which he falls into a position of complete advantage, entirely by luck, and Kirk systematically erodes that advantage. I'm laughing at the superior intellect right along with Kirk. But over the years, I've come to appreciate Wrath of Khan for its own strengths (it has them in spades), apart from my feelings about "Space Seed."

There were errors in STWK. Like how can they expect us to believe that Starfleet sensors would fail to detect that a planet has gone missing? Or that their computers wouldn't know the difference between Ceti Alpha 5 and Ceti Alpha 6? Wouldn't they have been alerted to the presence of dangerous eugenics warriors in the system?

However, the film hit all the right notes. Frankly, I consider it the best of all the Star Trek films. None of the others really did it for me. Not of any generation.

And the funny thing is, I never considered Space Seed to be anything special. To this day I feel its main claim to fame is being the setup for Wrath. It fills a major gap between what was the present (late 60s) and TOS and is considered one of the greats, but without Wrath, I doubt it would stand out.

 

[Tesophius]

I think Space Seed was a better story than TWOK, but the latter is just a much bigger budget investment, I appreciate it as I would a good painting, while Space Seed is a great Sci Fi story.

 

[thetrellan]

I think Space Seed was a better story than TWOK, but the latter is just a much bigger budget investment, I appreciate it as I would a good painting, while Space Seed is a great Sci Fi story.

I think it's more an apples to oranges situation. In SS Khan is charming and supremely confident, a born leader capable of overcoming a gap of several centuries worth of change. In the process seducing one of Kirk's own into defecting. But in Wrath, he is all of that and more, driven like a devil. Plus there were those Herman Melville quotes. It was pretty awesome.

 

[Tesophius]

I think it's more an apples to oranges situation. In SS Khan is charming and supremely confident, a born leader capable of overcoming a gap of several centuries worth of change. In the process seducing one of Kirk's own into defecting. But in Wrath, he is all of that and more, driven like a devil. Plus there were those Herman Melville quotes. It was pretty awesome.

For me SS is as much about him as it is about genetic engineering and cryonics. While TWOK has terraforming, but the way it's presented is pretty unrealistic.

 

[thetrellan]

For me SS is as much about him as it is about genetic engineering and cryonics. While TWOK has terraforming, but the way it's presented is pretty unrealistic.

I know, right? A magic creation bomb. More fantasy than science. But to be fair, genetic engineering and cryonics were both beyond us as well. Cryonics is still that way, essentially a dead end for research.

Eugenics isn't actually about genetic engineering, though. Strictly speaking, it's just a breeding program that pays attention to genetic makeup. What Hitler tried to do could be called eugenics. They could have called it something better. I suppose it sounded science-y enough. Plus it's horrible. Involves eliminate of the genetically inferior, possible via genocide. Hence the Hitler angle.

On second thought, the word is perfect. A great way to describe cruel, perfect people.

 

[Nerys Myk]

For me SS is as much about him as it is about genetic engineering and cryonics.

Speed Seed has little to do with genetic engineering and cryonics. They're just a device to get the actual plot going. No real time is spent on the hows and why's of either. And of course in Space Seed it's selective breeding not genetic engineering.

 

[Tesophius]

I know, right? A magic creation bomb. More fantasy than science. But to be fair, genetic engineering and cryonics were both beyond us as well. Cryonics is still that way, essentially a dead end for research.

Eugenics isn't actually about genetic engineering, though. Strictly speaking, it's just a breeding program that pays attention to genetic makeup. What Hitler tried to do could be called eugenics. They could have called it something better. I suppose it sounded science-y enough. Plus it's horrible. Involves eliminate of the genetically inferior, possible via genocide. Hence the Hitler angle.

On second thought, the word is perfect. A great way to describe cruel, perfect people.

Cryonics has actually matured into a real industry, I know at least four companies offering cryonic services today. They've made significant progress in the last 15 years switching into vitrification process away from damaging crystallization. It does hang on a hope of tremendous technological progress in the future, but definitely beats the odds of being buried in the ground.

I know eugenics isn't really genetic engineering, it's more of selective breeding. But I like to think that it was genetic engineering, I think that's implied in the Into Darkness and just makes way more sense than selective breeding, you'd need a lot more than one generation to have any kind of a result.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Cryonics has actually matured into a real industry, I know at least four companies offering cryonic services today. They've made significant progress in the last 15 years switching into vitrification process away from damaging crystallization. It does hang on a hope of tremendous technological progress in the future, but definitely beats the odds of being buried in the ground.

Not sure that cryonics was in play in Space Seed. It was a form of suspended animation, but not one using freezing. From dialog it seems they found a way to slow down the body's functions.

MCCOY [OC]: Life science bioscanners are picking up heart beats from over there. Can't be human, though. They're too faint, and average only four beats per minute.
SPOCK: Sensor reading, Captain. Some sort of equipment functioning on that vessel.

Cryonics is a bit of scam from what I can tell. wiki

Cryonics is regarded with skepticism within the mainstream scientific community and is not part of normal medical practice. It is not known if it will ever be possible to revive a cryopreserved human being. Cryonics depends on beliefs that the cryonics patient has not experienced information-theoretic death.[3] Such views are at the speculative edge of medicine.[4]