Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

[Richard Baker]

For me Valeris was too obvious a role to be a co-conspirator. She reminded me of MacDuff in 'Conundrum' - you have a new person suddenly part of the family and when things get weird who do you think might be the one responsible. I think Saavik would have been more appropriate since she was already known to everyone and part of the familiar crew. Chekov going dark would have been a real surprise, but I like his character and it would be a shame to see that career end that way.

I do think Chang was on board Kronos One- part of the entire ruse is to foment war with both sides, otherwise he could have just shot Gorkon on the way there and blew up the Enterprise as they were arriving. He needed the Klingon crew to see what Kirk had supposedly done. While the crew of the BoP was entirely with the plan, aside from Chang I do not think anybody on Gorkon's ship was- they were loyal to him and served on his personal flagship. There would be no reason for Change to sneak off to the BoP just to fire two torpedoes when had been planned- it would be more important to have him on board the main ship in his position to deal with the Enterprise and make sure 'justice' was served.
I think the plan was for the two ships to battle and if it looked like the Enterprise might win the cloaked BoP could get in a couple of shots which would ensure victory for the Klingons. Cartwright would make sure the loss of the Enterprise along with the Klingons declaring war to avenge their leader would get the war started.

 

[Lance]

The real problem with Valeris for me isn't just that she's a "Remember The New Guy" (as TV Tropes would put it) for just this one movie, but also the fact that she's such an obvious expy of Saavik. In certain scenes where she interacts with the other characters, she might as well be Saavik with the numbers filed off. There are even a number of what seem to be blatant call-backs to Saavik, except they have to be hastily shoehorned into this new girl's backstory instead. It all seems very disingenuous.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Someone please tell me what that "mixing the drink" action was that they shoehorned into the scene where Valeris visits Spock in his quarters? Didn't he have another clean glass so she could drink out of her own? There's some significance behind it, though, otherwise, why is it there? If it was meant to be suggestive of something going on between them, it was so awkward and so strange that I have to assume that's not what's going on. It may be a Vulcan custom that represents "Passing the Torch" in some way, maybe. Especially as he drank first. But it really need not have been in there it was just this unexplained thing that made no sense, on its own ...

 

[FormerLurker]

You weren't paying attention. It was a Vulcan ritual, likely, as you suggest, to signify passing the torch. As such it was necessary for her to drink from the same vessel, otherwise the "passing" would not be represented in the ceremony. And it was undoubtedly some type of Vulcan tea.

 

[Ithekro]

I always have liked food or drink related rituals for some reason. Probably dating back to "The Karate Kid Part II" and the tea ceremony. But also things like Buzz Aldrin's communion scene in "From Earth to the Moon".

 

[2takesfrakes]

Thanks! Yes, I guess I always get a little confused by the fact that when the scene opens, we see Spock lighting candles ... checking his look in the mirror. And reflected in it is a smokin' hotty. It's like a perfume commercial. In fact, it wouldn't have surprised me in the least, if they would've started rubbing fingers, after that. Only ... instead of Valeris showing interest, she's as far away from him in the room as she can get - with her arms folded! Whilst she checks out some childish painting, instead of Spock who's evidently put on his best outfit for her. A little more exposition on what they were doing there would've helped me out, certainly ...

 

[Timo]

he should've been telling Uhura to have every available ship on alert that this Bird of Prey was on the loose

I don't see how this could work. Kirk had just discovered that his bosses wanted the world to end. Surely he couldn't trust any of his colleagues, either - save perhaps (just perhaps) for Sulu?

There would be no reason for Change to sneak off to the BoP just to fire two torpedoes when had been planned- it would be more important to have him on board the main ship in his position to deal with the Enterprise and make sure 'justice' was served.

Chang wouldn't really be needed during or immediately after the assassination, and he would be in personal danger at those moments. Better to wait and see what happens and whether Kirk defeats the Klingon flagship or vice versa, then return. What is there to lose that way? Gorkon does fail to reach Chang during the events... Which would either require Gorkon's aides to deliberately stall, or for Chang to actually go somewhere else for the duration.

If they concluded it was the logical way to solve the problem at the time... "Needs of the many" and all...

Actually, I was curious whether other, fully Vulcan kids would "rape" rather than bludgeon if accused of being stupid - and whether other, fully Vulcan adults would "rape" rather than bludgeon if accused of being traitors from a race of traitors, or "rape" rather than strangle if accused of not caring about their mothers...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[2takesfrakes]

he should've been telling Uhura to have every available ship on alert that this Bird of Prey was on the loose

I don't see how this could work. Kirk had just discovered that his bosses wanted the world to end. Surely he couldn't trust any of his colleagues, either - save perhaps (just perhaps) for Sulu?

That would be to accuse Kirk of paranoia, which he is not prone to. And Sulu's been his bus driver since The Dawn of Time, until just this movie - how isn't he going to trust Sulu? Whatever Sulu thinks he knows about commanding a starship, he learned from Kirk. And, again, Sulu's been breaking a few rules of his own in support of ENTERPRISE, all throughout this movie ...

 

[Shat Happens]

Whatever Sulu thinks he knows about commanding a starship, he learned from Kirk

LOL that, so true.

Well, I just rewatched the movie and I LOVE THE RAPE SCENE

That scene is so nice and powerful. Valeris was being such a bitch it was easy to think she deserved the mind rape. And it had to be Spock to do it (even if he was not the only other Vulcan there) Spock was so angry and disappointed in the previous scene in the sickbay. We all love Spock of course.

Now lamentably I only have the Scoobydooed DVD version, where pictures of Chang and the others are split into the scene, completed with some stoopid sound effects. That of course ruined the movie completely and forever.

Since it's ruined anyway, I almost expect to see Valeris' molten brain oozing like butter thru her ears. Also she could slump down right before Spock says "she doesn't know".

That would be so satisfying.

 

[Shat Happens]

Whatever Sulu thinks he knows about commanding a starship, he learned from Kirk

LOL that, so true.

Well, I just rewatched the movie and I LOVE THE RAPE SCENE

That scene is so nice and powerful. Valeris was being such a bitch it was easy to think she deserved the mind rape. And it had to be Spock to do it (even if he was not the only other Vulcan there) Spock was so angry and disappointed in the previous scene in the sickbay. We all love Spock of course.

Now lamentably I only have the Scoobydooed DVD version, where pictures of Chang and the others are split into the scene, completed with some stoopid sound effects. That of course ruined the movie completely and forever.

Since it's ruined anyway, I almost expect to see Valeris' molten brain oozing like butter thru her ears. Also she could slump down right before Spock says "she doesn't know".

That would be so satisfying.

 

[Maurice]

"bitch" + "deserved" + "rape" = ignore list +1

 

[Timo]

That would be to accuse Kirk of paranoia, which he is not prone to.

Umm, what? Kirk had just learned that the conspiracy was true, and that his superiors wanted to kill the UFP President. What's there to be "paranoid" about? his bosses are villains, and some of his own crew are villains, too. Sending out trusting messages would establish Kirk as brain-dead.

And Sulu's been his bus driver since The Dawn of Time, until just this movie - how isn't he going to trust Sulu?

Sulu he just barely might trust, but not any other skippers. And Sulu's crew would no doubt be full of moles as well.

Then again, Kirk knows next to nothing about Sulu (such as him having a daughter), and has already been backstabbed by his closest colleague Spock to get the events of the movie going. He should well realize that he has been insufficiently paranoid of late.

"bitch" + "deserved" + "rape" = ignore list +1

But "bad guy" + "deserved" + "beaten to pulp/phasered down/thrown off a cliff" = heroic action?

The double standards here never cease to astound, so I can't really tell what your stance on that would be. I'm fearing the worst, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mos6507]

There's nothing sexual about a forced mind-meld. I really think "rape" is the wrong term.

 

[starburst]

Chang was still likely on Kronos One, unless he could covertly transport to the BoP and then back again with no one on the Battlecruiser being any the wiser.

Star Trek has never being 100% on whether you can transport through a cloak, for instance the BoP in STIII could use its transporters just not weapons or shields while the Defiant in DS9 couldn't do any of those things.

If Chang has co-conspirators on board the Battlecruiser they could have effected his beam to and from the BoP but why would he need to? All he needed to do was to make sure they lost control and gravity to effect the assassination and stay out of the way to threaten the Enterprise. After this the plan was most likely fight until either was destroyed or the Enterprise was forced to withdraw.

Chang didn't want to see the Empire at peace with the Federation and was most likely willing to die to ensure that didn't happen, be it during the first engagement or later on doesn't matter. Kirk surrendering himself was unexpected, Gorkon's daughter being willing to carry on with the peace her father desired was another as none of the other high ranking Klingon's wanted anything other than war at that point.

As for the BoP if it became a shooting match who knows if it would have gotten involved; they could have simply waited a sufficient amount of time and decloaked to join the fight, no need to give the game away that it was a special prototype she could have simply been relatively close by shadowing Kronos One but not as close to be there when the first shots were fired.

 

[Timo]

unless he could covertly transport to the BoP and then back again

I think this is one of the things he could definitely count on. His evil plan depended on the assassins being able to come aboard and fight their way to the Chancellor, so obviously something was supposed to dull down the reactions of the battle cruiser crew.

A bunch of conspirators sabotaging sensors and defenses? Just extremely well-placed torpedo shots by the BoP? A combination thereof, with sabotage charges going off simultaneously with the torpedo hits? Whatever the mechanism, the assassins could come and go - and so could Chang.

Star Trek has never being 100% on whether you can transport through a cloak, for instance the BoP in STIII could use its transporters just not weapons or shields while the Defiant in DS9 couldn't do any of those things.

I guess our best bet there is to blame it all on doctrine: some cloak users value extreme stealth, while others settle for lesser stealth if it allows them more tactical flexibility. Romulans seem to be of the former sort, and some of that appears to leak to their Klingon allies in ST:GEN... But Klingon ships have withstood disruptor shots while cloaked, and have freely transported and in this movie also fired weapons through a cloak.

After this the plan was most likely fight until either was destroyed or the Enterprise was forced to withdraw.

And that's the part where Chang doesn't want to be aboard the battle cruiser, because the chances of the ship losing the fight are quite real.

Chang didn't want to see the Empire at peace with the Federation and was most likely willing to die to ensure that didn't happen

I don't see signs of that in any of the conspirators, on any of the three or so sides. They all were happy with killing, but none mentioned a desire to die!

As for the BoP if it became a shooting match who knows if it would have gotten involved

The final fight sort of suggests the BoP would not have decisive firepower available. A well-placed surprise shot against an unshielded opponent would decide the fight, but why wouldn't Kirk raise shields? His ship wouldn't be damaged. Unless Valeris was supposed to sabotage the shield-raising. And we know for sure she wasn't suicidal - at a key moment, she chose to live and let the whole plan collapse.

There's always Gorkon's "Find Chang!". Was the man too trusting and wanted his right-hand man on his side? Or was he no fool and realized at once who would really be to blame? Either way, Chang was nowhere to be found...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

I would assume Chang is on Kronos One. If not during he start of the attack, than he beamed back onboard before contacting Enterprise, as he is supposedly on the bridge of Kronos One before bringing the ship about to target Enterprise. (The guy Gorkon sent to find Chang didn't get very far, he was shot by the assassins. Wasn't that the guy that got his arm shot off)

Chang would not miss the chance to fight Kirk. One warrior to another.

The other source for Chang's personality is the PC game "Klingon Academy". If that is anything to go by, Chang was on Kronos One the entire time. He might be betraying Gorkon (who he doesn't see as fit to command the Empire due to his stance on the Federation), but Chang is depicted as an honorable Klingon warrior. One who would not back away from a battle...especially not against his hated enemies, the Federation...and especially James T. Kirk.

 

[CoveTom]

Not arguing, but I always assumed that Chang was on the Bird o Prey all along and only made it seem like he was on the big ship. Chang doesn't strike me as the sacrificing type. But maybe that would have revealed it? He may have been ready to beam over to the Bird if the attack started. I still think it would have been a real Remember the Maine type incident for the Empire.

Remember that when the attack starts, Gorkon tells them to find Chang. He's not with Gorkon at the time. I take that to mean that Chang was actually on the Bird of Prey planning, as others have suggested, to see Gorkon's ship destroyed. But when things went awry, he beamed back over to the flagship and just made it look like he had been there all along.

 

[Armored Saint]

If it had been Chekov as traitor maybe they could've blamed it partly on brain damage from TWOK

Chekov didn't have uncured brain damage from TWOK. Kirk wouldn't have give him the tactical station later in the movie. Bones wouldn't have let Kirk doing that.

Simon van Gelder screamed a lot when Spock forcibly probed him in the first-ever mind meld. How many of us yell(ed) "rape!" for the agony of a wrinkly old man?

That's why I don't buy the mind-rape thing. Most of mind-meld performed by Spock weren't made on consenting targets. So, considering this mind-meld like a rape would imply to consider a lot of other melds like that.
But Valeris wasn't like the others, she was a Vulcan, she was well aware of what a mind-meld is. WRONG! The victim doesn't have to be conscious or to know what is thing called sex to be raped. That would also implied Bones was raped by Mirror Spock.

But Spock melded with van Gelder, the Horta and the amnesic Kirk to help them. WRONG! Raping someone for his own-good doesn't work. Don't forget Spock also used his powers to manipulate his jailers.

Recently, I read the novel Cast no Shadow. It's good stuff, but when the betazoid psychotherapist was lecturing Spock on this infamous meld I was...PUH-LEASE LOOK WHO'S TALKING. If a mind-meld is a rape, Betazoids are a bunch of voyeuristic perverts.

 

[DonIago]

Well, if Lwaxana is any indication...

 

[Timo]

I'm coming to think that it's clear the conspirators did not wish to see Kronos One destroyed.

Had that outcome satisfied one or both sides in the conspiracy, then the BoP could have destroyed the battle cruiser outright, with torpedoes that appeared to have been fired by the Enterprise. Gorkon would be dead, and Starfleet would be implicated by the evidence recorded by the surviving Enterprise. If the conspirators weren't confident the Enterprise would bring forth evidence that implicates Starfleet, then all the more reason to think they wouldn't let the only other legitimate witness ship be destroyed.

We could argue that the use of a "Starfleet" boarding party would add to the evidence condemning the UFP, after which "the Enterprise" could additionally destroy the battle cruiser. But again the villains would need to be counting on the Feds to implicate themselves, not to mention on the evidence from the battle cruiser internal security cameras somehow making it to the Enterprise databanks before the loss of the battle cruiser. So the extra complication of the boarding party would add nothing tangible to the plan.

Yet if the idea were to let the Klingon ship assuredly survive, with data showing both the boarding and the torpedo launches, then the extra complication makes sense. Especially since any evidence on the torpedo launches would need to be faked, since actual visuals would reveal that the torps came from nowhere.

If the survival of the battle cruiser always was a key element in the plan, then Chang wouldn't need to evacuate any farther than absolutely necessary to keep him away from the line of fire of the two assassins.

Whether Kirk then lives or dies is fairly irrelevant. The outrage of him being hauled away for trial might be enough to get the war going. If not, any rescue plan, orchestrated by Cartwright (perhaps to fail?), would achieve that. It's only after the rescue plan is shot down and Azetbuhr inexplicably refuses to go to war over the cooling corpse of his father that the second assassination becomes necessary.

Timo Saloniemi