Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Dale Sams, Aug 8, 2014.

  1. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    1. Does Valeris 'work' for you? She's basically Kim Cattrall in some pointy ears, but for me...despite everything...she works. I don't know why. Maybe because she's so cheery (For a Vulcan) and doesn't trip a lot over the standard Vulcan clichés of not understanding humans.

    2. Okay. Now what exactly was the plan in assassinating the Chancellor? This is what everyone on both sides of the conspiracy know: The Klingons will fire two torpedoes from a cloaked ship under Enterprise. Either a saboteur will knock out gravity or the torpedoes were designed to do so. Enterprise beams over two assassins, they kill the Chancellor and then beam back.

    Then what? We'll trade punches until someone is dead? We'll trade punches, the Klingons will beg off and go home? Seems naïve from the Federation POV. The Klingons have a Battecruiser AND a cloaked starship. There's no reason for the Klingons not to blast Enterprise into dust.

    If Valeris and those two saboteurs expected to die...well, I suppose there's a certain nobility in that.
     
  2. VST

    VST Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    1. Yeah, she does. I believe the part was originally meant to be Saavik but Robin Curtis wasn't available, so Valeris was created - but she was a good foil to Nimoy, possibly because before she got lost up the sycophantic arse of Sex and the City, Kim Cattrall is actually quite a decent actress.

    2. I assume the conspirators fully expected the Enterprise *to* be blown to smithereens, thereby killing the 'patsies' aboard. That, coupled with Gorkon's death, would be enough to inflame both sides to war.
     
  3. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    They probably never planned on Kirk to surrender without a shot. ("Let them die." "I can never forgive them for the death of my boy.") Maybe they thought he would finish off Gorkon's ship while damaged. Then it would have been the eeeeeevil Kirk to cause the whole Empire to be up in arms and invade the hell out of the Federation. That would certainly shame the "dove" part of the Klingon government into total silence, "See what asking for peace did for Gorkon?"
     
  4. VST

    VST Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    ^Damn good theory there.
     
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I assume the plan was that the ships would fire upon each other resulting in one or both of them being destroyed. Since the conspirators wanted war, pretty much any possible outcome there would be a desirable one.

    Hell, I'd say Kirk did the best thing he could possibly have done under the circumstances.
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She does - but there's the nagging feeling that we lost a lot through her not being Saavik. Using a "white hat" character in a major "black hat" role would have had an impact, and they wouldn't have had the guts to use Chekov... But Saavik would have been just perfect.

    Klingons want him dead so they can start the war with a proper leader in charge. Feds want him dead so that they can start a war they know they will win. And Romulans want the two to cooperate because they know they will be the ultimate winners.

    It doesn't really matter much what happens after the assassination. If Kirk fights back, both sides have casus belli right there. His surprise surrender might delay the war, but OTOH it's nice to have one ship from both sides survive to tell the tale and be accused of perverting the facts. Nothing would be left to chance, though: if need be, the BoP could finish off either ship.

    Neither side will lose a major asset even if both ships are destroyed. Naturally, the conspirators on both sides will be divided into those who think they will be safe despite being onboard the visible ships, and those who know they will not. Chang probably was aboard the BoP during the fight, waiting for the outcome, while Valeris either was kept somewhat in the dark, was ready to martyr herself, or was promised a last-second evacuation (and might even have gotten one).

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The wise, humble and open-minded Vulcan is Sarek, so Valeris works well as the immature, condescending and narrow-minded Vulcan.
     
  8. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Except Christopher Plummer is on board that ship. So *He's* sacrificing himself for the conspiracy? Makes more sense to let the Feds die since the Klingons have two ships on the scene and they get rid of Kirk in the process.
     
  9. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Here's an idea: It's fanwank, but what the hell.

    The plan for all sides is to let Kirk take the fall. As planned, it would go like this:

    Chang fires with the Klingon Battlecruiser as we see he very nearly did. Kirk fires back, THEN the cloaked ship decloaks and starts firing also. The Klingons 'graciously' allow Kirk to surrender himself rather than have his ship destroyed.

    Then things continue according to plan. The only thing Kirk changed was... in surrendering the BoP didn't have to reveal itself.
     
  10. Marsden

    Marsden Commodore Commodore

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    Not arguing, but I always assumed that Chang was on the Bird o Prey all along and only made it seem like he was on the big ship. Chang doesn't strike me as the sacrificing type. But maybe that would have revealed it? He may have been ready to beam over to the Bird if the attack started. I still think it would have been a real Remember the Maine type incident for the Empire.
     
  11. VST

    VST Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Oh imagine the gut punch if it had been Chekov? That would have been fantastic. They could have done that too given it was the crew's last shout, and such a bittersweet reveal could have worked given the tone of that film.
     
  12. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This would suggest that General Chang wasn't one of the top men in the conspiracy.

    If you thing about it, would one of the Klingon ring leaders be in direct command of the bird of prey, effectively cut off from events on the planet's surface and the Klingon council?

    The ring leaders would either be in the council chamber at the time of the assassination, or if the council was temporarily moved to Kitimer, then on the surface ready to assume power after the tragic assassination.

    Not isolated on a BOP.

    General Chang might have been merely "mid-level."

    :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
  13. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Plus, Koenig had on occasion expressed the desire to do badass stuff like that. And the Chekov character would be eminently qualified. Plenty of anti-Klingon background from way back in "Trouble with Tribbles" (and arguably "Day of the Dove"), the whole idiot "act", the convenient position at Security, even the position as Spock's Apprentice in TOS... Perhaps Chekov would have felt it logical to betray his old CO for patriotic reasons?

    Ah, well. It would have been glorious - especially if at the climax Chekov didn't give up and surrender like Valeris did, but instead gave us those puppy eyes and "I'm sorry, Keptin", then drew his phaser...

    Well, Klingons are very hands-on when it comes to leadership. The man who organized the Klingon victory would be less likely to reap the benefits than the man who actually pulled the trigger.

    I'd say the conspiracy never went past this "mid-level" anyway. Chang had Gorkon killed, hoping to get the war going when he had the ear of Gorkon's daughter and the opportunity to gain from the conflict, and that was that. He wouldn't have needed much for that, just a single extra starship from his supposedly powerful House, and perhaps a few inside men aboard Kronos 1; no Empire-wide cabal of politicians and soldiers united on a patriotic dream or anything.

    Cartwright may have thought in more altruist terms, and commanded a broader organization - but he, too, could have been essentially "mid-level", e.g. personally responsible for selling Chang those Starfleet-lookalike torpedoes, and without anybody above him pulling strings.

    The only "high-level" aspect to the whole deal might have been the Romulan involvement, at rather strategic level. But neither the Klingons nor the Feds need have known the true role or aims of the Romulans in the cabal. Indeed, it's a bit weird that Valeris knew about Nanclus' involvement at all.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. VST

    VST Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm not sure about Chekov pulling a phaser, but how powerful would the scene of Spock mind melding to get the truth have been with him? Man...
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, the man can scream! And nobody would ever accuse Trek of shirking away from bold homoerotic statements again. :p

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sorry, but I'm not really following you here. Are you assuming that Chang was on Kronos One and didn't want to see the ship destroyed? I never assumed the former, and as to the latter I can see him assuming that in a firefight the Klingons would win...possibly with the help of the BoP if necessary. Though I think revealing the BoP would be a measure of last resort.

    Always made sense to me that, as one of the ringleaders, Chang would take direct command of the BoP. It would be more strange to me if he left a flunkie in charge.

    Why would Chang be in the council chambers? If the assassination succeeds it's not going to matter where he is especially. And we're never given any reason to assume that Chang wants power directly; if anything he seems content to be the power behind the throne.
     
  17. Nebusj

    Nebusj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But if Chang weren't on Kronos One (or supposed to be on it), then, if Kronos One were to be destroyed, how would Chang's survival have been explained? Rushing to the escape pod and being lucky enough that the Cloaked Bird Of Prey (do we ever get a name for it, or should we make one up?) could happen to discover him?
     
  18. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If Kronos One was destroyed and war ensued, nobody would care how or why Chang was alive I suspect. The Klingons would be happy to have him (and the BoP) around under the circumstances, and what's Starfleet supposed to do about it?
     
  19. Tarek71

    Tarek71 Captain Captain

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    I am just glad they ditched the idea of Saavik being the one who did this. Assassinating the President seemed absurdly out of character for her. I would have like to see her as 1st officer of the Excelsior. Having Rand in that role seemed silly.

    Well to start a war seemed to be the goal. Chancellor killed by the Enterprise, and then the Federation President killed by the Klingons. Maybe Admiral Cartwright and Colonel "Odo", or whatever his name was, planned a military coup as well.
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    FWIW I don't think Rand was first officer of Excelsior, just the communications officer.

    I also tend to think that killing the UFP president was a "Plan B" after the attack on Kronos One didn't accomplish all they were hoping for.