Star Trek VI: A couple of questions

[Timo]

Hmm. What would be dishonorable about killing a surrendered opponent? Said opponent has already sealed his death warrant by being a coward beyond redemption - warriors don't surrender.

Also, if there were more peaceniks aboard that ship, why would Chang stop short of slaughtering them all? Starship-to-starship fighting can get rather messy, and if you add foreign assassins to the mix, you can eliminate hordes of opponents without implicating yourself.

Otherwise, good points there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[2takesfrakes]

As for the "mind-rape", I don't think you're supposed to approve of what Spock does, per se, but in terms of learning who the co-conspirators were, I don't really see how Our Heroes had a much better choice under the circumstances. IIRC the novelization makes a point of making it so that during the meld Valeris is convinced by Spock to give up the names rather than having them forced from her.
As for it being "dismissed"...we really have no idea what may have happened there so it's not really reasonable to make that assumption.

The problem isn't Spock's initiating the mindmeld in the first place, we're made to see the necessity of it and that the information is forthcoming with seemingly little-to-no resistance from Valeris. And until now, the case could be made that this is not a "violation" of Valeris at all, but rather a coaxing, of sorts.

But when she genuinely doesn't know where the conference is being held, Spock does take it too far to forgive it, even for an audience. Especially when he reveals that he knows how to obtain that information from a trusted source. A source, by the way, which has been sending ENTERPRISE messages all along saying, "I'll help you any and every way I can."

Fortunately, we're not let in on Spock's approach towards mind rape, but he does take it that far with her. And if their minds were truly entangled, there should've been every indication that she wasn't hiding anything, certainly by that point. It was disturbing, as much as anything, for the fact that it was only put in the script, really - I mean, let's face it - to underscore how "desperately" Spock wants this peace conference to succeed. Sometimes when a director gets too much control, it seems, the movie itself gets out of control.

 

[urbandefault]

Come on, if she hadn't screamed no one would be complaining. Except maybe about Cattrall's wooden performance.

I think it says more to Spock's character that he had the ability to go that far with a mind meld, and until this incident never felt it was necessary.

Sulu only knew the location of the conference. Spock was looking for not only that, but the names of the others involved and any further information she had about the conspiracy.

And don't think that kind of mind meld didn't have the same effect on Spock that it did on Valeris. He felt it every bit as much as she did.

 

[2takesfrakes]

It was totally against character for Spock and Nick Meyer was only too happy to have him come across as a creep for the sake of one "dramatic moment." Yes, Spock is shown for a hot shit minute looking like he's not having a good time, and if what he did at least produced results of some kind, just maybe it could've found some sort of justification as the means. But, of course, it didn't. Where was IDIC then, and all of these high-sounding morals and ideals of the Vulcan people and of Spock, the outcast, himself? Not in that scene, I can tell you that. Did Nick even watch any of the original shows, when he was made to? Or was he drawing happy faces on a notepad the whole time, daydreaming about a successful career outside of STAR TREK?

 

[urbandefault]

So they should have slapped irons on Spock for doing what could potentially have saved the President and avoided a war that could cost millions, or billions, of lives?

Valeris had already murdered two people and was complicit in the assassination of Gorkon. She was willing to finish off the crewmember who she thought survived her close range phaser blast, but didn't have the stones to kill Spock in cold blood.

After getting snooty about deciding not to give up the location of the conference and other conspirators on the bridge, she barely tried to physically resist Spock's initiating the mind meld. She was not mentally strong enough to block him, and she should have known better. But in her youthful arrogance she underestimated her mentor.

This was not "rape" by any means, and it disturbs me that people throw the word around so freely.

YMMV.

 

[DonIago]

If Spock deserves to be slapped in irons for his mind-meld with Valeris in TUC, I would assume Sisko deserves the same for his handling (or lack thereof) of the Romulans in ITPM.

 

[2takesfrakes]

For the genuine purposes of discussion, then: How would you describe ... whatever Spock did to make Valeris cry out so?

I kind of agree, actually, that rape has many connotations and implications that go along with it that very likely did not apply. And yet ... Valeris screamed and not just with a cute little yelp, either. She screamed in agony and horror. And the reactions from the crew seemed to confirm that this was perceived as a bad thing that happened. As for disciplining Spock for it, Kirk did seem to authorize him to use more forceful pursuasion with his, "... Spock" remark, just after Valeris' acting rebellious and prior to the mindmeld.

 

[Ithekro]

Since their minds were one, in going deeper, she saw some thing that Spock had seen in his travels. Things that shocked and terrified her. Like his death perhaps. One of the first things he says after the meld is "I've been dead before".

 

[Marsden]

This was not "rape" by any means, and it disturbs me that people throw the word around so freely.

YMMV.

I think part of it was how truly angry Spock was. He was enraged and not holding his emotions in check. And he did take it out on Valeris, he was profoundly disappointed in her. She seemed to be a protégé of his, like Saavik was in the second movie, and this was his legacy. The terrible betrayal of the Federation and himself by his own disciple plus, like that wasn't enough, he was disappointed by what happened to Jim and Bones. He must have been upset about what they went through, and he got them both in to it. There was a lot of rage there. A non Vulcan may have beat her up, physically at that point.

 

[Timo]

For the genuine purposes of discussion, then: How would you describe ... whatever Spock did to make Valeris cry out so?

Well, rape is probably the furthest from it - apparently, and statistically speaking, real people being raped don't scream. They tend to be way too afraid, embarrassed or stunned to do so.

Really, every time I see somebody declaring that interaction "rape", I get the distinct feeling it's their own personal fantasy to inflict dominance through pain in a sexual context. Otherwise where is the lure of misusing a word?

Simon van Gelder screamed a lot when Spock forcibly probed him in the first-ever mind meld. How many of us yell(ed) "rape!" for the agony of a wrinkly old man?

There was a lot of rage there. A non Vulcan may have beat her up, physically at that point.

Then again, we have seen what happens when Spock really gets annoyed. It's very physical in "This Side of Paradise" or STXI or ST:ID. I'd thus think ST6 is actually one or two notches below that, not above.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[2takesfrakes]

Well, rape is probably the furthest from it - apparently, and statistically speaking, real people being raped don't scream. They tend to be way too afraid, embarrassed or stunned to do so.

Really, every time I see somebody declaring that interaction "rape", I get the distinct feeling it's their own personal fantasy to inflict dominance through pain in a sexual context. Otherwise where is the lure of misusing a word?

Simon van Gelder screamed a lot when Spock forcibly probed him in the first-ever mind meld. How many of us yell(ed) "rape!" for the agony of a wrinkly old man?

 

[2takesfrakes]

Having just Googled this, I came across the following site and the information it collected on the scene in question:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/StartrekVItheundiscoveredcountry

◦On the DVD Commentary, Nicholas Meyer and screenwriter Denny Martin Flinn actually say that scene is "very erotic" and "sexy stuff".

Some might consider that Squick, and some might consider that Fetish Fuel.

◦This scene is more difficult to regard lightly in the War On Terror era, though it may be more difficult to apply since a mind meld doesn't work in the way that torture does.

◦In the novelization, it's very different: Valeris is terrified by the knowledge that Spock could force his way into her mind with his superior mental training, but Spock doesn't do this. He gently inquires telepathically and she is so relieved that she yields without resistance.

As to whether the threat of mind rape is morally superior to actual mind rape, YMMV.

◦In a promotional interview for the film, Cattrall revealed that her character and Nimoy's have a mind meld, and then crowed "I got to have safe sex with Mr. Spock!"

Um...yeah, not so much.

◦It has to be added that the actual scene is not as bad as this exchange makes it sound. Nimoy's acting make it painfully apparent that it isn't something Spock takes on lightly, and he is almost as badly affected as Valeris. His voice cracks badly as he delivers the information, and he is clearly struggling to hold it together himself.

 

[Marsden]

Then again, we have seen what happens when Spock really gets annoyed. It's very physical in "This Side of Paradise" or STXI or ST:ID. I'd thus think ST6 is actually one or two notches below that, not above.

Timo Saloniemi

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Spock, so This Side of Paradise is appropriate, but I didn't see Spock get upset otherwise, he seemed to old to do too much.

 

[Timo]

Facetiousness aside, beating up people is probably a Spock thing specifically rather than a Vulcan male thing in general. Both "Yesteryear" and STXI show him being very physical about it at childhood already.

I wonder if normal Vulcan males would go around "raping" people in like circumstances?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

If they concluded it was the logical way to solve the problem at the time... "Needs of the many" and all...

 

[2takesfrakes]

The problem with this Meld Scene is not about extracting what Valeris knows, it's about what Spock knows. If he didn't know that Sulu was aware of the location for the conference, then taking drastic measures with Valeris would've still been very ugly, but the argument for necessity would've at least passed for plausible. Knowing that Sulu could save the day meant that a case can now be made for Spock taking the interrogation too far.

What probably should've happened was instead of Kirk egging Spock on with, "... Where's the conference? THE CONFERENCE?!?!" he should've been telling Uhura to have every available ship on alert that this Bird of Prey was on the loose, to which Sulu would've then had cause to contact ENTERPRISE. During that conversation, he volunteers the location and they agree to head there at full speed. Again, this is Nick Meyer who's director. Nick who wrote/co-wrote the script. It's his failing as a story-teller that led to these problems and all of the STAR TREK movies he's worked on have major flaws.

 

[DonIago]

You're forgetting the part where learning who the co-conspirators were was considered very important as well, it seems.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The meld really should've been severed after Valeris offered up the conspirator's names. But anyway, I think I'm talked out on this scene, to be honest.

If it were up to me, I would've just edited it out and nothing really would've changed, except for The Excelsior's appearance on the scene, last minute. When everybody beams down and Bones tells Admiral Cartwright, "we've got a full a confession," with Valeris in tow, that pretty much covers it, really. So, everything after the scene when Valeris goes to sickbay with then intent to kill until they arrive at Kitomer should've been scrapped and the movie would've been better for it, actually.

 

[Ithekro]

I wonder if Spock didn't know that Sulu would know the location, but Valeris did know that much, that Excelsior would be in the loop even if she and Enterprise were not. Sometimes Spock slips and gets reminded of things. It doesn't happen often, and he usually brushes it off, but it happens on rare occasions.

 

[DonIago]

I disagree. I think there's something to be said for seeing how desperate Our Heroes are to save the galaxy.

^Also a good point.