Star Trek: To Boldly Go

[BigJake]

You've got a different definition of the general public?

Different expectation. Not different definition. That mix of different people with different backgrounds has a proven ability to embrace new SF work that does not come couched in "familiar" names. So far as I can see, that is a fact. If you have a genuinely strong concept, the amount of Trek people are or aren't familiar with, or whether you're coating it in familiar names to make it go down easier, should not matter.

(We really are kind of just repeating ourselves at this point.)

 

[C.E. Evans]

You've got a different definition of the general public?

Different expectation. Not different definition. That mix of different people with different backgrounds has a proven ability to embrace new SF work that does not come couched in "familiar" names. So far as I can see, that is a fact.

Which doesn't change what's needed or expected in a sequel to something. That's a fact. You don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[R. Star]

I'm leaning further toward the theory that this is people unconsciously using the apocryphal "general audience" as a stand-in for preferences of theirs that they assume to be general.

That might be the truth.

Most people tend to think they have the silent majority on their side in these debates.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'm leaning further toward the theory that this is people unconsciously using the apocryphal "general audience" as a stand-in for preferences of theirs that they assume to be general.

That might be the truth.

Most people tend to think they have the silent majority on their side in these debates.

Most people, particularly on the internet, don't know others there well enough to make any claims.

 

[BigJake]

Which doesn't change what's needed in a sequel to something.

Except that you haven't demonstrated that something loosely using a common setting must be interpreted as a "sequel."

 

[C.E. Evans]

Which doesn't change what's needed in a sequel to something.

Except that you haven't demonstrated that something loosely using a common setting must be interpreted as a "sequel."

Are you really going to play that game? Are you really going to ask what makes something a sequel?

 

[BigJake]

Most people tend to think they have the silent majority on their side in these debates.

At least we're not in "the lurkers support me in e-mail" territory...

 

[BigJake]

Are you really going to play that game? Are you really going to ask what makes something a sequel?

Dude, the hostility isn't called for. Kindly dial it down.

I'm not asking "what makes something a sequel." I'm pointing out that using a common setting does not make something a sequel. And AFAICS it's a fact. I am not "playing a game" with you.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Are you really going to play that game? Are you really going to ask what makes something a sequel?

Dude, the hostility isn't called for. Kindly dial it down.

"Dude," this isn't hostility, believe me. It's a legitimate question.

I'm not asking "what makes something a sequel." I'm pointing out that using a common setting does not make something a sequel. And AFAICS it's a fact. I am not "playing a game" with you.

Oh, so you're just not getting it.

So, I'll recap and summarize: It's just a case that when there's a sequel to something, some fans of the original--regardless of their level of fandom--might like to see something from it there, and the creators do take that into consideration when doing the sequel. And AFAICS that's a fact.

 

[BigJake]

"Dude," this isn't hostility, believe me.

Okay, if you say so...

It's just a case that when there's a sequel to something, some fans of the original--regardless of their level of fandom--might like to see something from it there, and the creators do take that into consideration when doing the sequel.

Letting the "sequel" thing go for the moment: I completely agree that this is a common sentiment in fandom. That's what I said at the outset. That doesn't make it a sentiment of "the general public;" it means it is a form of fan-service.

It just isn't a necessary one. If it's not something most of the fans need, and if the fans are at any rate not a large enough population to maintain the franchise, and it's not something the general public needs... then creators should feel free to make the creative decision that feels right.

 

[C.E. Evans]

"Dude," this isn't hostility, believe me.

Okay, if you say so...

It's just a case that when there's a sequel to something, some fans of the original--regardless of their level of fandom--might like to see something from it there, and the creators do take that into consideration when doing the sequel.

Letting the "sequel" thing go for the moment

No, let's not let it go, because the "sequel" thing is precisely what I'm talking about. You've been arguing with me over everything else.

I completely agree that this is a common sentiment in fandom.

It's a common sentiment in Hollywood.

That doesn't make it a sentiment of "the general public;" it means it is a form of fan-service.

No, that's assuming that there aren't any fans of an original production in the general public when that's definitely not true.

It just isn't a necessary one.

I disagree. I think it is necessary for a sequel to carry something from the original.

If it's not something most of the fans need, and if the fans are at any rate not a large enough population to maintain the franchise, and it's not something the general public needs...

I don't share that opinion at all.

then creators should feel free to make the creative decision that feels right.

Sure, if they want to alienate fans of the original production with the sequel. Otherwise, they generally include something from it to appease them. You can call it fanservice if you want, but it's still giving members of an audience something they want or are familiar with.

 

[BigJake]

I mainly just wanted us to get past blaming this sentiment on "the general public." Now that we know what we are talking about, the rest is just arguing about what degree of "something familiar" this form of fan-service actually needs. I think the conclusive answer to that question is "the setting and concept," you think something else, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't want to completely submerge David's thread in this digression at any rate, and while I'd be happy to have this conversation:

No, let's not let it go, because the "sequel" thing is precisely what I'm talking about.

... because in fact I do think your understanding of when that term is a propos is flawed, I can't help but feeling that the discussion is overheating at this point. Much as I appreciate your assurances of non-hostility I think we'd be better off giving it a break.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I mainly just wanted us to get past blaming this sentiment on "the general public."

Who is this "us?" I'm not blaming anything. I'm just saying is that when something becomes very popular, some aspects of it become known to the general public, and when a sequel to it is made, it's expected that some of those aspects are included in it.

Now that we know what we are talking about, the rest is just arguing about what degree of "something familiar" this form of fan-service actually needs. I think the conclusive answer to that question is "the setting and concept," you think something else, we'll have to agree to disagree.

You're still not getting it. I've been pointing out various examples of things from a popular series that can be familiar to an audience. It can be anything that's well-known--from a particular character or characters, to a setting, to a concept, or even just the name of a certain ship.

I don't want to completely submerge David's thread in this digression at any rate, and while I'd be happy to have this conversation:

No, let's not let it go, because the "sequel" thing is precisely what I'm talking about.

... because in fact I do think your understanding of when that term is a propos is flawed, I can't help but feeling that the discussion is overheating at this point. Much as I appreciate your assurances of non-hostility I think we'd be better off giving it a break.

The only one that seems to be offended or thinking things are getting hostile is you (although I'd like you to stop psycho-analyzing me though). And there's nothing remotely flawed about my understanding of a sequel. To me, it doesn't make sense at all to do a sequel to something and don't have anything from the original in it. That defeats the entire purpose of doing a sequel, really.

 

[BigJake]

Yeah. I think that will do.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It was done quite some time ago, really.

 

[BigJake]

True dat.

 

[David.Blue]

The more I think about it, the more I get the impression that Trek fans are a hindrance in themselves. They think other people would not understand something, even though that is complete bull.

It is rather ironic that some of the arguments for "needing" ties to the old continuity are similar to old arguments that were once used to kibosh the exercise of filming sci-fi at all. Better to give the viewers something "familiar" like a WWII or Western setting or a good solid cop or detective show, otherwise they might get confused and wander off.

I'm leaning further toward the theory that this is people unconsciously using the apocryphal "general audience" as a stand-in for preferences of theirs that they assume to be general.

Exercising my brain a bit more, another aspect of the League might be a genuine "Hive" mind, especially if they encounter another race first that badmouths them/it.

It would be refreshing to see a Hive-mind/collective-mind concept that is non-evil as part of the League. Challenging to find a really fresh way to do it after the Borg, but not necessarily impossible.

Let us say the Hive methodically exploits each system it inhabits, terraforming and settling such systems until they are industrialized in the extreme.

Hm. Maybe a bit too close to Borg "assimilation"?

Another thing that might motivate fear on the part of encountering peoples is if the Hive's lifestyle is a genuinely materially attractive one, it's possible to join the "Hive" voluntarily... and the "Hive" makes that offer freely to one and all. Thus presenting the unwitting appearance of "seducing" people into its fold and "enslaving" them.

On this interpretation the Hive would not really be a species but a paradigm. Perhaps even a collectively-sentient ecosystem whose tech is organically based, whose plant-life is just as much a part of decision-making as its humanoids, and which converts worlds into verdant paradises instead of industrial parks.

In this scenario, one of the junior officers would likely be a Vulcan, to be impacted by the proximity of the Hive ship.

I think there are other telepathic races one could use. OTOH it might be fun to see a Vulcan character who for once is not a scientific uber-genius -- though surely knowing it is stereotypically expected of them by everyone, including other Vulcans -- but is a gifted and intuitive telepath, who cannot fully develop her gifts because they are rooted in emotion. Some genuine conflict with the Surakian standard in which the argument isn't rigged in favour of Surakian... ism.

I like both these ideas, a lot! The whole premise of a Hive mind you can simply join, that forms a total gestalt with entire ecosystems--not only fascinating but would probably seem weird in the extreme! Heh heh heh...

And while there've been Vulcans who seemingly did not take the Science route (Saavik for one--and there must have been Vulcan tactical and engineering personnel aboard USS Intrepid), I totally love your notion of one whose telepathy in effect has a big dose of empathy entwined. Might as well be a left-handed lesbian Hispanic Muslim in Arizona!

Also seems to me we've come up with two of the characters--young Miss Kirk and this deviant Vulcan.

 

[R. Star]

Evans and Jake just need to hug. That'll fix everything.

 

[BigJake]

We're putting it in the Happy Box. Hug it out. Hug. It. Out.

I like both these ideas, a lot! The whole premise of a Hive mind you can simply join, that forms a total gestalt with entire ecosystems--not only fascinating but would probably seem weird in the extreme! Heh heh heh...

Glad you dig it! I was put in mind of it by a great old Mike Resnick story about an alien invasion of Africa by a sentient jungle... I'll dig around and see if I can find reference to it, he does a great job of bringing out how strange and terrifying it is...

 

[R. Star]

We're putting it in the Happy Box. Hug it out. Hug. It. Out.

Guess this is yall then?