With TAS, I can see where very few people would’ve seen it before Betamax & VHS releases. At 22 episodes, it really wasn’t inviting for syndication back then, where most TV stations wanted a minimum of 65 episodes for an animated series that could run for 5-days for 13 weeks before repeating. And I remember in the 90’s seeing it being advertised to run on Teletoon, but we didn’t get the station, so I couldn’t see it until the DVD. Whereas TOS, it was everywhere!
Star Trek: The Entropy Effect (#2) by Vonda McIntyre
- Thread starter Damian
- Start date
For all my issues with Picard, I did appreciate the Kzinti mention.
That doesn't make a lot of sense, though, since she was the story editor (effectively the showrunner) for the entire first season of TAS. And roughly half of TAS's episodes were written by TOS veterans, more if you count Walter Koenig and Marc Daniels as well as the writers like Stephen Kandel, David Gerrold, David P. Harmon, etc.
I think it's more just that "Yesteryear" is such an important story about Spock. It's the TAS episode that carries the most impact, probably.
TAS was syndicated every now and then; I definitely remember seeing it occasionally in the years after its first run ended. The syndication regime you're talking about came along in the '80s, basically starting with He-Man in 1983, nearly a decade after TAS.
Still, it's true that it was run a lot less routinely and ubiquitously than TOS, especially in the '80s and after. I often wished that the people who syndicated TOS would tack on TAS at the end of the package, showing two back-to-back episodes in each slot.
Sure, but I have seen quotes by the early novel writers specifically citing the influence of DC Fontana when writing the Spock character, ie. her work both in TOS and TAS. It also rose again when DC wrote the novel "Vulcan's Glory" (and was asked to make public comments on the addition of Sybok in the then-forthcoming ST V, and cheekily added a line about Spock being "the only son of Sarek" while she still could - I confirmed this with her in person.)
Yep.
I recall an interview with Roddenberry where he mentioned that 22 TAS plus 78 TOS = 100 episodes, the old so-called magic formula for syndication. (Of course it depends how "The Menagerie" is counted, and TOS broke that chestnut anyway.)
IIRC, when Filmation was winding down in 1989, no Filmation product was running in US syndication, at least until it was mapped out who owned which bits of their back catalogue. Once TAS was cleared as now belonging solely to Paramount TV/Viacom, it popped back into syndication.
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Okay, but now you're blending eras again. You said "Yesteryear" "gets a pass," as if it were an exception to the general avoidance of TAS. As I've been saying, there was no overall avoidance policy until 1989. Before that, it was just a matter of individual authors' interest and familiarity. So if you're talking about the early novelists, then those that were familiar with "Yesteryear" were probably the same ones who were familiar with TAS overall and willing to include it. (Note that Yesterday's Son was written as if "Yesteryear" never happened.) So in that context, it wasn't an exception to any overall rule. That wasn't the case until the '90s.
Except that doesn't work, since you need a consistent time slot length for scheduling purposes, so it would've been necessary to double up TAS episodes, which would only add 11 hours.
I'd love to see the Kzinti in a live action show. I thought I read somewhere that if Enterprise had gotten a 5th season they were thinking about featuring the Kzinti.
A shame that show didn't continue. I thought it ended too soon. There was still a lot of ground to explore in that era (not the least of which was The Romulan War--I'm glad we finally heard the story in the novels but nothing compares to seeing it on the screen).
"The Slaver Weapon" was another favorite episode of mine of TAS. For what was tailored to be a kids show TAS didn't dumb things down. Simplified to an extent, yes, but it wasn't dumb (well, occasionally they'd have a dopey 'laugh' scene but that's ok)
Now that I'm past some deadlines I can return to the conversation...
If you think about it, we only have the word of the Kelvans the Enterprise met that the Andremeda Galaxy was becoming uninhabitable.
IIRC -- though this may have been 80s fannish speculation, come to think of it -- the Galaxy project from McIntyre's novelizations (Flynn's Magellan(ic Clouds), the Andromeda, and the M-31) was intended to make contact with the Kelvans on their own ground. A propulsion test project -- doesn't McIntyre actually refer to it as "transwarp" in her books -- perhaps with Kelvan assistance isn't impossible. Given the scale of distances involved and the whole test project nature of the endeavor, anyone signing up for the mission knows they stand a good chance of not returning to Earth alive. Of the three Galaxy ships built, I wouldn't be surprised if all three were total losses. The only thing we know, since McIntyre never returned to this, is that Flynn's ship surveyed a supernova in the Andromeda Galaxy.
Wasn't Vance Madison the one that Carol Marcus had a relationship with, and she tried to find his family on Earth after he died, but he apparently somehow managed to live completely off-the-grid and didn't appear to have any sort of existence before the Genesis Project? I was always fascinated by that -- a 1980s Star Trek novel already exploring the idea of people who didn't "exist" in a surveillance society.
I have always wondered where Diane Carey's Piper novels are supposed to go. The continuity references in them are a little wonky. I know they're supposed to be FYM stories (which would have been explicit had her Lost Years lead-in, "The Federation Mutinies") been published, but other things in Dreadnought! make me wonder if it was meant to be closer to Star Trek II.
For me, one of the weirder aspects of the Star Trek universe is its lack of technological development after the 22nd-century. Technology gets a little more refined, I guess, but Archer's era doesn't seem particularly primitive compared to Picard's. The spore drive of Disco seems like the first new technological concept we've seen since, what, the Genesis device?
Part of that is audience expectations. They expect to see warp cores and nacelles, phasers, transporters, so why invent something new when those cover all the bases?
If you think about it, we only have the word of the Kelvans the Enterprise met that the Andremeda Galaxy was becoming uninhabitable.
IIRC -- though this may have been 80s fannish speculation, come to think of it -- the Galaxy project from McIntyre's novelizations (Flynn's Magellan(ic Clouds), the Andromeda, and the M-31) was intended to make contact with the Kelvans on their own ground. A propulsion test project -- doesn't McIntyre actually refer to it as "transwarp" in her books -- perhaps with Kelvan assistance isn't impossible. Given the scale of distances involved and the whole test project nature of the endeavor, anyone signing up for the mission knows they stand a good chance of not returning to Earth alive. Of the three Galaxy ships built, I wouldn't be surprised if all three were total losses. The only thing we know, since McIntyre never returned to this, is that Flynn's ship surveyed a supernova in the Andromeda Galaxy.
Wasn't Vance Madison the one that Carol Marcus had a relationship with, and she tried to find his family on Earth after he died, but he apparently somehow managed to live completely off-the-grid and didn't appear to have any sort of existence before the Genesis Project? I was always fascinated by that -- a 1980s Star Trek novel already exploring the idea of people who didn't "exist" in a surveillance society.
I have always wondered where Diane Carey's Piper novels are supposed to go. The continuity references in them are a little wonky. I know they're supposed to be FYM stories (which would have been explicit had her Lost Years lead-in, "The Federation Mutinies") been published, but other things in Dreadnought! make me wonder if it was meant to be closer to Star Trek II.
For me, one of the weirder aspects of the Star Trek universe is its lack of technological development after the 22nd-century. Technology gets a little more refined, I guess, but Archer's era doesn't seem particularly primitive compared to Picard's. The spore drive of Disco seems like the first new technological concept we've seen since, what, the Genesis device?
Part of that is audience expectations. They expect to see warp cores and nacelles, phasers, transporters, so why invent something new when those cover all the bases?
But part of it is that physics is consistent and universal. When it comes to propulsion, some things just intrinsically have to work a certain way. The way a boat is shaped now isn't that different from the way boats were shaped thousands of years ago, though the power sources are different. We still cut our food with sharp-edged pieces of metal like they did millennia in the past, although the fork is a relatively recent invention. Something that draws on fundamental physical forces, like electricity or space warp propulsion, is unlikely to change all that much over the ages, because the physics requires it to work a certain way. It will be refined, but probably still recognizable in some ways.
I'll cop to being one of those authors who largely ignored TAS, not as a matter of principle or "canon" or whatever, but simply because I wasn't terribly familiar with it. I was a teenager when TAS debuted and wasn't really watching Saturday morning cartoons much anymore, so I only caught a couple of random episodes back in the day. And at the point I started writing Trek books, TAS wasn't regarded as "canon" anyway so I never got around to checking it out.
When my EUGENICS WARS books came out, I was occasionally asked why I hadn't included some scientist-character from "The Infinite Vulcan." The honest truth is that I'd never seen that ep and had never heard of that character before.
When my EUGENICS WARS books came out, I was occasionally asked why I hadn't included some scientist-character from "The Infinite Vulcan." The honest truth is that I'd never seen that ep and had never heard of that character before.
I hadn't thought of that myself. But Dr Keniclius (the doctor--and yes, I had to look that up
) was a Eugenics War scientist and an augment himself. However, I doubt he would have approved of Khan's work. They didn't say much about the original Keniclius (the one in the episode was a clone) but based on the clone who was supposedly an exact copy, I would figure he was a more benevolent superman. Misguided maybe, but I don't think he'd approve of Khan's methods.Perhaps it might have been nice to have had a chapter in one of The Eugenics Wars books on Keniclius, perhaps even repudiating Khan and going his own way. But that's all it probably would have been. Obviously at the end of the day he was separated from Khan's Merry Band of Supermen since he ended up on Phylos as opposed to the Botany Bay so I don't see that it would have added anything to the overall plot.
Perhaps others disagree but I see it as no more than possibly an Easter egg. I mean, let's face it, no one can cover every possible angle and story thread. Some things are going to be left out.
If you ever get a chance give it a look. It was the only episode written by Walter Koenig (and if I'm not mistaken the only episode of the original and animated series to be written by one of the original series actors). It was Koenig's only 'appearance' in TAS
. Some elements are over the top, like the giant-Spock and Keniclius. But it's an interesting episode nonetheless and shows us not all of the Augments from the 1990s were evil and bent on domination.
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Yeah, they are refugees with ambitions of conquest. Hmmm.
At the very least, in my mind (just for fun) the Kelvans are an aspect of the expeditions to Andromeda. I don't recall if McIntyre says the Galaxy ships are transwarp ships, but maybe they are implied to have drive systems of similar lineage to what is in the Excelsior. I also came away from the novelization that Excelsior is slightly more advanced than the Galaxy ships. So the Galaxy ships are maybe no-frills scout ships, while Excelsior would do long term patrols in Andromeda the way Enterprise patrolled the frontier during the original series.
From memory, without checking, Vance Madison was raised in a fairly normal, loving family, and he had a gentle personality, and he was the one in a relationship with Carol. Del March met Vance when they were young boys in a neighborhood park where Vance lived. They became fast friends and grew up together, and Del "adopted" himself into the Madison family. Del is said to be a little wild and occasionally indulges in moments of dark anger, which combined with the hints that he was born within a bad element of society, I was left with the impression that he suffered from early trauma that his upbringing with the Madison family mitigated against. My recollection is that it is all but confirmed that Del ran away from or was on the run from wherever he originated from, and he chose a totally new name for himself (maybe to disguise his identity, or maybe because he was never given a name, or both).
And yeah, that's the really fascinating part, the mystery of a boy who ran from a seedy undercurrent of the society of the 23rd Century and became a respected scientist alongside his lifelong best friend and adopted brother. What aspect of society got missed in the 23rd Century, stayed in a dark corner?
I would have loved to have had a book that was about Del and Vance, with hints of several possible places of origin for Del (left for the reader to decide which they prefer or reject). With details about the development of their other crowning achievement, the computer game Boojum Hunt.
It's such good background information, and that's what makes me say that I have mixed feelings about it, that it feels a little morbid.
With both The Entropy Effect and Dreadnaught! as late 5YM novels, the turn around time for Mandela Flynn going from being the Enterprise security chief to captain of the Magellanic Clouds would be quite compressed. It's not impossible that Mandela Flynn was involved in a career-defining mission that got her a field promotion, where she was able to stay afterward. And then she remains as captain of the Magellan for something like 10 years or so, when she is first mentioned/introduced in that position in the novelization of TWoK. There are some explanations that can make that work, though.
It's too bad that Diane Carey wasn't able to do By Logic Alone and The Federation Mutinies. Although the combination of Dreadnaught and Battlestations are heavy with conspiracy, adding an epic book to that sequence would have made the Federation of the 80's novels appallingly untrustworthy. The Rittenhouse scandal, and it's aftermath as described in Battlestations felt like it cast a formidably long shadow just with those two books alone.
In TEE Flynn did have ambitions to become captain. In the novel Braithewaite suspected Flynn as Kirk's 'murderer' because he thought she was scheming with Spock to take out Kirk and as a reward she would get a command. He was obviously wrong but apparently Flynn got her wish. She was concerned because she has not come up the ranks in the tradition manner.
I'm reading The Klingon Gambit right now and next plan to read Vardeman's next novel "Mutiny on the Enterprise". After that I think maybe I'll re-read Carey's "Dreadnought" and "Battlestations!" novels. I haven't read those in years and forgot about Flynn. I guess Carey's novels are sort of in the same 'universe' as TEE so why not? "Battlestations!" was the very 1st original Star Trek novel I ever read. And probably the only Star Trek novels (that I can remember at least) that are totally told from a 1st person perspective. I do recall one aspect that I thought Carey did well was making Lt. Piper the main character and avoiding the Mary Sue phenomena. It'd probably be easy when writing that type of novel to fall into that trap, but she struck a good balance of making Lt. Piper her protagonist, yet without taking anything away from the main characters.
I hadn't thought of that myself. But Dr Keniclius (the doctor--and yes, I had to look that up
I actually had a similar email conversation with Greg Cox when he was writing his second and third Khan books.
He was also trying to work out the Joaquin/Joachim possibilities.Agree! I loved when Piper (as "I") observed something about the triumvirate that other participants did not notice. (She's the only person to see McCoy poke his tongue out at Spock, for example.)
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No, they were advance scouts for an invasion force; they were only stranded because their ship was cripped by the barrier. The galaxy wasn't already uninhabitable (it's at least as big a galaxy as our own, probably bigger), it was just going to become increasingly uninhabitable over the ensuing centuries. Rojan's group was sent to assess our galaxy for invasion-worthiness, and they wanted to get back home so they could report "Yep, it's just right, launch the invasion fleet." And then a few hundred years later, the Milky Way becomes Kelvan Empire, Phase II.
I actually had a similar email conversation with Greg Cox when he was writing his second and third Khan books.
Whenever it comes up I always point out how much I loved his 3rd Khan book "To Reign in Hell". I'm a continuity junkie and he did a great job explaining any inconsistencies between "Space Seed" and TWOK. And I liked that he made Joaquin Joachim's son as opposed to pretending it was the same person (I mean, it's one thing to recast, but they look nothing alike and I imagine getting your hair dyed blonde on Ceti Alpha V was not a high priority
). He even explained why they all looked like an 80's hair band. And I liked that he tried to explain how the Reliant lost a planet. I always found it hard to fathom how a Starfleet vessel, with all it's sensors and maps, could somehow lose a planet. Even if it wasn't well known it's hard to imagine they were that wrong, but Greg did a good job offering up an explanation. I don't know how scientifically plausible it is, but narratively at least it made sense.And just beyond that it was a great story. I love horror movies and the description of one of Khan's people who carelessly dives into the ocean was pretty graphic--good stuff
. And after reading the novel and all Khan dealt with it actually helps you understand how Khan could become so bent on vengeance in TWOK, to the exclusion of all else.As much as I love books that align things in continuity, it of course still has to be a great story. Christopher also does things like that a lot but he writes great stories as well. The continuity adjustments are a great bonus though.
TWOK is my 2nd favorite Trek film, after TMP, and I found this novel helped strengthen that movie for me. I have a friend who loves TWOK and some of the other movies and shows, but he's not an avid Trekkie like me and not a typical novel reader. But knowing his love for TWOK I let him borrow my novel and like me he loved the novel.
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