Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone - July 2014

[Christopher]

However, on first glance every doctor depicted therein is a white!Human. On second glance, there's the Doctor, and one of the Human doctors has a darker shade of skin, so he could be ethnic.

In the shot of the doctors at the conference, the second one from the left could be Asian, or maybe not. The guy with the goatee seems possibly Middle Eastern or South Asian, and the second guy from the right looks ethnically ambiguous, and it almost looks like he has a trace of Bajoran nose ridges. But they're all ambiguous enough that it's hard to tell. Oddly, though, they all appear to be male.

In the flashbacks, the first panel shows a couple of women and a dark-skinned man, plus a Bolian, the Benzite from before, and an orange-skinned bald humanoid in the foreground. The second panel includes two female doctors and a Vulcan male with brownish skin. Still, Caucasian human males do seem to dominate.

What strikes me about the art is that the renderings of the tricorders, which are supposed to be the featured items in the story, are so crude. They're just these featureless, angular boxes that look like something a bunch of kids made out of cardboard.

 

[Therin of Andor]

In STO, Benzites are playable characters and it's the player's choice whether to install a breather or not. I'm trying to think of a real life analog but nothings springs to mind.

Kids with asthma. Some have to carry their puffer everywhere they go. Others just on sports afternoon. Others need to be placed on a nebulizer every night.

Diabetics. Some always carry jelly beans or chocolate. Others inject insulin every day, but not all.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

While we're on the subject of Benzites, apparently they still need reminding to share relevant information rather than hoard it until they have a full solution . I like that nod to their original appearances.

In the shot of the doctors at the conference, the second one from the left could be Asian, or maybe not. The guy with the goatee seems possibly Middle Eastern or South Asian, and the second guy from the right looks ethnically ambiguous, and it almost looks like he has a trace of Bajoran nose ridges. But they're all ambiguous enough that it's hard to tell. Oddly, though, they all appear to be male.

There's one female doctor in the first set, I think; though she has a rather "mannish" jaw, so maybe she managed to fool them and thus get round the "no girls" rule.

Presumably the medical establishment has confirmed that girls are carriers of cooties?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

One can't really tell from cursory observation just when the Doctor became sentient. I tend to think that the potential was always there, but most EMHs weren't meant to be kept in continuous use, so they weren't given the opportunity for the necessary complexity to grow in their neural networks. And the unusual challenges the EMH faced aboard Voyager may have forced his software to drive itself to a higher level of operation in order to cope with them; and Kes's encouragement of his development probably helped as well. But I don't think a specific moment of "awakening" can be pinpointed; it was probably more a gradual emergence of complexity, like an infant growing into a child, only faster.

Just out of curiosity, at what point is a human child considered to be truly sapient? You've discussed before the fact that dogs might be at four-year old level, which surprised me (and caused me, actually, to rethink my attitude toward them), and I recall you posting an interesting link to a discussion of sapience or its potential in octopus, in spite of their short lives. So is there a consensus or majority position on when a human makes the transition from sapience-in-potential to true sapience, if such a determination can even be made?

 

[Christopher]

In the shot of the doctors at the conference, the second one from the left could be Asian, or maybe not. The guy with the goatee seems possibly Middle Eastern or South Asian, and the second guy from the right looks ethnically ambiguous, and it almost looks like he has a trace of Bajoran nose ridges. But they're all ambiguous enough that it's hard to tell. Oddly, though, they all appear to be male.

There's one female doctor in the first set, I think; though she has a rather "mannish" jaw, so maybe she managed to fool them and thus get round the "no girls" rule.

Do you mean the second one from the left? I wasn't sure about that one, but now that I look more closely, I think there's a ponytail there (I thought it was part of the background scenery before), and though there aren't any unambiguous curves, that doctor's build is rather slender compared to the rest. (Maybe that doctor's a Hermat?)

Just out of curiosity, at what point is a human child considered to be truly sapient? You've discussed before the fact that dogs might be at four-year old level, which surprised me (and caused me, actually, to rethink my attitude toward them), and I recall you posting an interesting link to a discussion of sapience or its potential in octopus, in spite of their short lives. So is there a consensus or majority position on when a human makes the transition from sapience-in-potential to true sapience, if such a determination can even be made?

I don't think there's a line you can draw there; it would be more of a gradual transition as the brain organizes itself to work on a conscious level. I recently read an article about how anaesthesia works, and it suggested that when a brain recovers from deep anaesthesia, it sort of "reboots" itself, its different parts testing out a variety of ways of interacting and feeling their way back by trial and error to the mode of interaction that allows them to interconnect smoothly, resulting in the emergent property of conscious thought. I would imagine that an infant's brain does much the same thing more slowly, because it's learning for the first time. We know that a human brain actually has more neural pathways to start with, and that as the most useful connections are established or reinforced through trial and error, the extraneous ones are discarded. A mind isn't really a single entity -- it's countless components gradually learning how to work together and form a pattern that operates on a higher level.

And by the same token, consciousness isn't a single process but a bunch of different processes working in concert, processes that develop at different rates. So there's no Rubicon to cross, no clear dividing line between sapience and its absence; there's just a series of developmental milestones. What we consider full sapience is the sum of all those milestones, but many of the individual ones are found in the animal kingdom.

 

[DimesDan]

Diabetics. Some always carry jelly beans or chocolate. Others inject insulin every day, but not all.

Type One Diabetics inject Insulin, Type Two's are mainly control it through diet but some do in fact Insulin. T1D isn't the person's fault, T2D is the person's fault, down to bad diet, over weight etc etc as that is preventable, T1D isn't preventable.

As for the chocolate part, what the hell? You do not treat a hypo with chocolate, sugary sweets yes, but chocolate doesn't get absorbed fast enough and can cause issues later on after eating it and are you actually saying that intaking more glucose is a form of controlling one's Diabetes and blood sugars?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

In the shot of the doctors at the conference, the second one from the left could be Asian, or maybe not. The guy with the goatee seems possibly Middle Eastern or South Asian, and the second guy from the right looks ethnically ambiguous, and it almost looks like he has a trace of Bajoran nose ridges. But they're all ambiguous enough that it's hard to tell. Oddly, though, they all appear to be male.

There's one female doctor in the first set, I think; though she has a rather "mannish" jaw, so maybe she managed to fool them and thus get round the "no girls" rule.

Do you mean the second one from the left? I wasn't sure about that one, but now that I look more closely, I think there's a ponytail there (I thought it was part of the background scenery before), and though there aren't any unambiguous curves, that doctor's build is rather slender compared to the rest. (Maybe that doctor's a Hermat?)

The hands also seem slimmer and more female to me, though I like the idea that s/he's a Hermat.

Just out of curiosity, at what point is a human child considered to be truly sapient? You've discussed before the fact that dogs might be at four-year old level, which surprised me (and caused me, actually, to rethink my attitude toward them), and I recall you posting an interesting link to a discussion of sapience or its potential in octopus, in spite of their short lives. So is there a consensus or majority position on when a human makes the transition from sapience-in-potential to true sapience, if such a determination can even be made?

I don't think there's a line you can draw there; it would be more of a gradual transition as the brain organizes itself to work on a conscious level. I recently read an article about how anaesthesia works, and it suggested that when a brain recovers from deep anaesthesia, it sort of "reboots" itself, its different parts testing out a variety of ways of interacting and feeling their way back by trial and error to the mode of interaction that allows them to interconnect smoothly, resulting in the emergent property of conscious thought. I would imagine that an infant's brain does much the same thing more slowly, because it's learning for the first time. We know that a human brain actually has more neural pathways to start with, and that as the most useful connections are established or reinforced through trial and error, the extraneous ones are discarded. A mind isn't really a single entity -- it's countless components gradually learning how to work together and form a pattern that operates on a higher level.

And by the same token, consciousness isn't a single process but a bunch of different processes working in concert, processes that develop at different rates. So there's no Rubicon to cross, no clear dividing line between sapience and its absence; there's just a series of developmental milestones. What we consider full sapience is the sum of all those milestones, but many of the individual ones are found in the animal kingdom.

That's a pretty fascinating picture. A difficult one to make sense of, in a way, since I suppose it's hard (for most of us, anyway) to fully deconstruct the sense that we're a unified, singular entity and understand ourselves as all these different components working together. I mean, we all comprehend it on some level, but on another level it's like acknowledging your own lack of existence, which feels...strange.

 

[JD]

In STO, Benzites are playable characters and it's the player's choice whether to install a breather or not. I'm trying to think of a real life analog but nothings springs to mind.

Kids with asthma. Some have to carry their puffer everywhere they go. Others just on sports afternoon. Others need to be placed on a nebulizer every night.

Diabetics. Some always carry jelly beans or chocolate. Others inject insulin every day, but not all.

I'd say deaf people and cochlear implants are a good analogy. They are an optional device that can can help deaf people hear but not every deaf person can/wants to get one.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Maybe Benzites hailing from mountainous regions have sci-fi distinctly better lungs the way the real-life Quechua people of South America have larger lungs from an alpine life.

 

[Christopher]

"Better" in what sense, though? The reason they need those breathers is because our atmosphere lacks a component that's a natural part of theirs. The deficiency isn't with their biology or lungs; they're perfectly well-adapted to their own environment. They need breathing apparatus in our atmosphere for the same reason we'd need it on Mars. Having more efficient lungs wouldn't help them if the gas they needed to breathe simply isn't included in an Earthly atmospheric mix.

 

[DimesDan]

In STO, Benzites are playable characters and it's the player's choice whether to install a breather or not. I'm trying to think of a real life analog but nothings springs to mind.

Kids with asthma. Some have to carry their puffer everywhere they go. Others just on sports afternoon. Others need to be placed on a nebulizer every night.

Diabetics. Some always carry jelly beans or chocolate. Others inject insulin every day, but not all.

I'd say deaf people and cochlear implants are a good analogy. They are an optional device that can can help deaf people hear but not every deaf person can/wants to get one.

Indeed, that's a very good analogy as when it comes to Diabetes, especially T1D, you don't inject insulin in some form, you will eventually die due to the complications that arise from not having any insulin.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Type One Diabetics inject Insulin, Type Two's are mainly control it through diet but some do in fact Insulin. T1D isn't the person's fault, T2D is the person's fault, down to bad diet, over weight etc etc as that is preventable, T1D isn't preventable.

Yes, I know all that thank you. Had I written all that, I'm sure people would have told me that I went into unnecessary detail. The original poster simple asked for some examples that were similar to Benzites relying on a gadget, while others seemingly did not need one.

I never said they were excellent examples, nor even scientifically accurate ones, just the first two I thought of. Posting here so often becomes an exercise in self censorship. ("Oh no! Someone is wrong on the Internet!")

As for the chocolate part, what the hell? You do not treat a hypo with chocolate, sugary sweets yes, but chocolate doesn't get absorbed fast enough and can cause issues later on after eating it

Exactly, but it was definitely a strategy used by diabetics in the 70s. My Dad played golf every week with a diabetic, who always carried commercially available "diabetic chocolate" in his golf bag - and the running joke at the golf club was that, if his friends ate it all during the game and he lapsed into a diabetic coma, he should do it on the 8th green or the 17th green, so it wouldn't be too far to drag him to the clubhouse. Some Aussie black humour for you.

 

[Christopher]

It is very wrong and judgmental to say that type 2 diabetes is "the person's fault," as if it were some kind of punishment from God. Lifestyle factors are known to contribute to the development of the condition, but only in people who are predisposed to it by their genetics or by a variety of medications or medical conditions. And while some of the lifestyle influences, like obesity and lack of physical activity, are under the individual's control, others are not, like increasing age or living/working in a stressful environment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_diabetes#Cause

Controlling lifestyle factors can reduce the risk, or at least delay the onset, in people with genetic or medical susceptibility, and may be able to prevent it in combination with drug therapy. But there's no guarantee of that, because medical conditions are not divine retribution for moral failings. Shaming people for a medical condition is contemptible and only causes more harm, because a stigma can keep people from getting the help they need -- or worsen the stress that's a contributing factor.

 

[DimesDan]

Type One Diabetics inject Insulin, Type Two's are mainly control it through diet but some do in fact Insulin. T1D isn't the person's fault, T2D is the person's fault, down to bad diet, over weight etc etc as that is preventable, T1D isn't preventable.

Yes, I know all that thank you. Had I written all that, I'm sure people would have told me that I went into unnecessary detail. The original poster simple asked for some examples that were similar to Benzites relying on a gadget, while others seemingly did not need one.

I never said they were excellent examples, nor even scientifically accurate ones, just the first two I thought of. Posting here so often becomes an exercise in self censorship. ("Oh no! Someone is wrong on the Internet!")

As for the chocolate part, what the hell? You do not treat a hypo with chocolate, sugary sweets yes, but chocolate doesn't get absorbed fast enough and can cause issues later on after eating it

Exactly, but it was definitely a strategy used by diabetics in the 70s. My Dad played golf every week with a diabetic, who always carried commercially available "diabetic chocolate" in his golf bag - and the running joke at the golf club was that, if his friends ate it all during the game and he lapsed into a diabetic coma, he should do it on the 8th green or the 17th green, so it wouldn't be too far to drag him to the clubhouse. Some Aussie black humour for you.

Well I am Diabetic, I certainly know what I am talking about and things are massively different now from forty plus years ago when Insulin was derived from pigs and it was injected using self drawn hypodermic needles.

Also being Diabetic, I find that story highly insulting and not worth actually repeating. It's hard enough with out ignorant individuals discussing things of this nature when they clearly only have rudimentary and extremely out dated knowledge on the subject.

 

[Danlav05]

I'd be surprised if Pocket or IDW didn't attempt some sort of crossover for the 50th. Even if it is just a linked storyline like most of Pocket's multi-series crossovers (you know, Invasion, Day of Honor, Section 31, that sort of thing). Or even standalone adventures for each series that culminates in a team-up finale (like Gateways or IDW's Doctor Who 50th anniversary series).

If IDW are doing The Q Gambit and Flesh and Stone now goodness only knows what they have planned for the anniversary!! I doubt they are beyond primary talks at this stage so I don't want to get into it! From what I understand the DS9 series on it's own didn't sell very well, the strongest brands are TOS, TNG and the JJVerse so as long as they are the focus they're happy. I guess an anniversary thing would focus on the Five Captains? Surely not everyone can get focused.

After plodding along with the ongoing series and other little projects that have arguably disappointed (despite also being an avid Whovian Assimilation2 was slightly disappointing as was HIVE) - the stories mentioned above, City on the Edge of Forever and New Visions means Trek IDW is really hotting up again. Until solicitation period they are good at keeping new projects under wraps.

Pocket will most definitely do as they do it a lot now (Destiny/Typhon Pact/The Fall etc)

Be it TV, movie, comics or even fan films - I'm a bit of a junkie for Star Trek crossovers so this to me is a good month. I think the Prime Universe over the past 20odd years especially has done extremely well to maintain solid continuity - I prefer to think of Star Trek personally as one long saga rather than different series.

 

[Villordsutch]

My review of Star Trek Flesh and Stone over at Flickering Myth - http://www.flickeringmyth.com/2014/07/comic-book-review-star-trek-flesh-stone.html

 

[Danlav05]

Some preview pages here-
http://www.thetrekcollective.com/2014/07/flesh-and-stone-preview.html#more


And just to be a big geek I'm slightly irked straight away that there's a Benzite with a respiration device when DS9: The Ship showed they didn't need them anymore.



There's also a panel that describes the Doctor thus- "Emergency Medical Hologram that gained sentience during USS Voyager's long return to the Alpha Quadrant."
Hmm, would you say he gained sentience during the trip? Seems to me he grew an awful lot as an individual but was always sentient. Hard to say... what would others think?

AND he's Chief Medical Officer of Copernicus Station - like in Star Trek: The Experience's BORG INVASION 4D! How's that for a continuity reference! (Mind you Korath from it's sister ride showed up in "Endgame" played by the same actor, same ridges and all)

 

[Stevil2001]

In STO, Benzites are playable characters and it's the player's choice whether to install a breather or not. I'm trying to think of a real life analog but nothings springs to mind.

Glasses, actually, are a great analogy. Some people wear glasses, others wear contacts, others undergo treatments like laser eye surgery. But the existence of the latter has not stopped the former.

 

[Markonian]

In STO, Benzites are playable characters and it's the player's choice whether to install a breather or not. I'm trying to think of a real life analog but nothings springs to mind.

Glasses, actually, are a great analogy. Some people wear glasses, others wear contacts, others undergo treatments like laser eye surgery. But the existence of the latter has not stopped the former.

That just about fits.

 

[vegaslover62]

Spoiler: Flesh and Stone

I feel cheated by the brevity of this comic. There's no Herculean struggle to cure the disease, there's no medical technobabble, it just seems little more than an excuse to bring together Bashir, Crusher and Pulaski and pop them off in search of McCoy, who flashes back to the time he met Phlox. All the while, Voyager's EMH seems to be doing all the heavy lifting offscreen.