Star Trek - Racist?

[Mark 2000]

By your hyper political correct line of thought Vulcans are treated in a racist way until TFF and McCoy is the worst culprit.

LOL! McCoy WAS a racist. He was written than way on purpose. When he says, for instance, that the "Trogolodites are mentally inferior!" you're supposed to cringe. Didn't you? The problem is that the TNG/DS9/VOY crews were not supposed to be racist. We're not supposed to be appalled by them. We're supposed to just agree. That's racist writing as opposed to racist characterization.

And, other than the Fu Man Chu mustaches and shoe polish, how were TOS Klingons racist? Besides being part of an aggressive military what was the definable characteristic all Klingons had? Kor was practical and jovial, but sadistic. Kras was offish and schemeing. Kor was gruff and powerful, yet resonable. Koloth was light hearted and sniveling. Krug was cold and savage. Every Klingon in TUC was completely unique. There's not a lot here roping these guys all together. They're individuals and that's why they are memorable. I can't remember one Ferengi from another across several series. So, really, drama was sacrificed for the sake of simplicity. It's not "Hyper PCism", it's good writing.

Think about Balance of Terror for a second. Here we've got several people on the Enterprise trying to pigeon hole a whole race of people while on the BOP we've actually got no less than three different view points and personalities colliding between the Commander, Decius, and the Centurion. And this is the first time we ever SEE a Romulan. So much for the "dramatic necessity of simplification".

 

[Sci]

I think it's completely fair to say that the TNG-era Federation characters can sometimes be quite speciesist and bigoted. Assuming that all Ferengi are out to steal from you and swindle you is unfair and unjust. By the same token, however, their dominant subculture is built around a religion that teaches that exploitation is virtuous, admirable behavior -- so I don't blame a Federate for being weary when entering into a business transaction with a Ferengi, especially if he does not know if that Ferengi is a dissident.

I also think that DS9 went a long way towards calling Federates on their prejudices against some alien cultures. Quark called Sisko on his anti-Ferengi bigotry, for instance. And, frankly, I also think that it's realistic: Even in the 24th Century, if you have two cultures that embrace mutually exclusive, contradictory value systems (Federation socialism vs. Ferengi capitalism), there's going to be some natural prejudice from one side against the other. It's not fair and it's not right, but it's kind of inevitable.

(Also, as I noted before, I think there's a difference between stereotyping about different arbitrarily-defined "races" or "ethnic groups" within a single species, and simply noting that some species may have abilities others do not. It's stereotyping to assume that all Asians are good at math, but it seems that it's not stereotyping to say that most Vulcans are better at math than most Humans.)

And I disagree that you can't introduce Ferengi dissidents like Quark's Moogie in the very next episode after their introduction, though. Introducing multiple competing factions within an alien society makes that society more vivid and realistic.

 

[SchwEnt]

I've thought about McCoy's frequent use of "you green-blooded, pointed-eared, computerized...".

Now we know McCoy and his feelings and relationship towards Spock, so we know the context of his words.

What if McCoy had a similar relationship with Sulu? Could he go around talking about that "slant-eyed, yellow-skinned, yadda yadda yadda"? And Uhura??

It's okay for Spock (because he's a fictional alien) but could never be done with a "real" human character?

 

[Sci]

I've thought about McCoy's frequent use of "you green-blooded, pointed-eared, computerized...".

Now we know McCoy and his feelings and relationship towards Spock, so we know the context of his words.

What if McCoy had a similar relationship with Sulu? Could he go around talking about that "slant-eyed, yellow-skinned, yadda yadda yadda"? And Uhura??

It's okay for Spock (because he's a fictional alien) but could never be done with a "real" human character?

I suspect that we're supposed to walk away from the McCoy/Spock dynamic recognizing that McCoy is being prejudiced -- but also recognizing that his prejudice is not fundamentally hateful or there to justify oppression, as Vulcans are clearly not oppressed within the Federation. Rather, we're supposed to see it as the sign of a man who is imperfect. And while McCoy is sometimes unfair to Spock, bear in mind that he'd give his life to defend Spock in a fight and always has Spock's back. That means something, too.

If we were to compare McCoy to modern society: McCoy is not Sheriff Bull Connor. He's the racist white grampa who gets uncomfortable around black people and occasionally says something he shouldn't, but who also did everything he could to teach his kids not to be like him and tried to hide his prejudices when the kids were younger.

 

[horatio83]

By your hyper political correct line of thought Vulcans are treated in a racist way until TFF and McCoy is the worst culprit.

LOL! McCoy WAS a racist. He was written than way on purpose. When he says, for instance, that the "Trogolodites are mentally inferior!" you're supposed to cringe. Didn't you? The problem is that the TNG/DS9/VOY crews were not supposed to be racist. We're not supposed to be appalled by them. We're supposed to just agree. That's racist writing as opposed to racist characterization.

And, other than the Fu Man Chu mustaches and shoe polish, how were TOS Klingons racist? Besides being part of an aggressive military what was the definable characteristic all Klingons had? Kor was practical and jovial, but sadistic. Kras was offish and schemeing. Kor was gruff and powerful, yet resonable. Koloth was light hearted and sniveling. Krug was cold and savage. Every Klingon in TUC was completely unique. There's not a lot here roping these guys all together. They're individuals and that's why they are memorable. I can't remember one Ferengi from another across several series. So, really, drama was sacrificed for the sake of simplicity. It's not "Hyper PCism", it's good writing.

Think about Balance of Terror for a second. Here we've got several people on the Enterprise trying to pigeon hole a whole race of people while on the BOP we've actually got no less than three different view points and personalities colliding between the Commander, Decius, and the Centurion. And this is the first time we ever SEE a Romulan. So much for the "dramatic necessity of simplification".

If McCoy is such a nasty racist who cannot stand Vulcans, how come he and Spock are such good friends? Insulting a friend is not racism.

The Ferengi have been intentionally written as satire whereas the TOS Klingons have been a horrible stand-in for the Soviets. Beware of those Asian hordes!.

 

[Greg Cox]

And while McCoy is sometimes unfair to Spock, bear in mind that he'd give his life to defend Spock in a fight and always has Spock's back. That means something, too.
.

Plus, remember that Spock was constantly zinging McCoy with dry little comments about how illogical and immature you silly humans are. A lot of that "green-blooded" stuff was in the context of playful back-and-forth bantering between two guys who were were perfectly comfortable teasing each other. It would probably be a mistake to take it too seriously.

 

[Mark 2000]

If McCoy is such a nasty racist who cannot stand Vulcans, how come he and Spock are such good friends? Insulting a friend is not racism.

Read what Sci says. He lays out the subtleties you don't seem to be getting.

The Ferengi have been intentionally written as satire whereas the TOS Klingons have been a horrible stand-in for the Soviets. Beware of those Asian hordes!.

Other than the Klingons being a Soviet analogue in the fact they were a second power in the galaxy that was vying for influence over less powerful nations, Klingons bear NO resemblance to the USSR or China. They aren't communists. They don't have a particularly Asian culture - aside from their facial hair. They're militaristic and not democratic - but then again we only see their military in TOS, never the civilians. Again, you don't seem to have a grasp over the subtleties of an inspiration leading to something fleshed out and just relying on stereotypes. There's are reason why people like Klingons up to their over-vikingization, and never ever liked the Ferengi.

 

[Sci]

And while McCoy is sometimes unfair to Spock, bear in mind that he'd give his life to defend Spock in a fight and always has Spock's back. That means something, too.
.

Plus, remember that Spock was constantly zinging McCoy with dry little comments about how illogical and immature you silly humans are. A lot of that "green-blooded" stuff was in the context of playful back-and-forth bantering between two guys who were were perfectly comfortable teasing each other. It would probably be a mistake to take it too seriously.

That's true -- to a point. I think that there's more than just playfulness behind their teasings, though -- I think that both McCoy and Spock honestly hold some prejudiced feelings towards the others' cultures, even if they try to fight them. Spock was certainly raised in a culture that is very condescending towards Humans, and McCoy has a little bit too much venom in his barks for me to think there isn't a subtext to it -- I think he was probably raised in a subculture down in Georgia that resented Vulcan domination of United Earth throughout the 22nd Century.

Which is not, again, to say that they necessarily agree with those prejudices intellectually. People are complex beings, more than capable of harboring feelings to which they intellectually object. I've known more than a few white people who believed with all their hearts that racism was wrong, but still felt uncomfortable around blacks or Latinos. It's entirely plausible for both McCoy and Spock to hold some prejudiced feelings without always agreeing with their own prejudices.

Bottom line: People -- and feelings of alienation -- are complex.

 

[SchwEnt]

And while McCoy is sometimes unfair to Spock, bear in mind that he'd give his life to defend Spock in a fight and always has Spock's back. That means something, too.
.

Plus, remember that Spock was constantly zinging McCoy with dry little comments about how illogical and immature you silly humans are. A lot of that "green-blooded" stuff was in the context of playful back-and-forth bantering between two guys who were were perfectly comfortable teasing each other. It would probably be a mistake to take it too seriously.

^^ I agree. And yet that same realization doesn't really work today.

Try going around talking about someone's hair or skin or eyes or some other racial-specific features. Someone WILL take it too seriously, it WON'T be accepted in the context of playful back-and-forth bantering. Hell, many schools/workplaces literally spell out that such talk is prohibited and will bring serious consequences. Ask Don Imus, amongst others.

Termination, mandatory sensitivity re-education, public apologies, it goes on and on. Oh well.

 

[horatio83]

That's true -- to a point. I think that there's more than just playfulness behind their teasings, though -- I think that both McCoy and Spock honestly hold some prejudiced feelings towards the others' cultures, even if they try to fight them. Spock was certainly raised in a culture that is very condescending towards Humans, and McCoy has a little bit too much venom in his barks for me to think there isn't a subtext to it -- I think he was probably raised in a subculture down in Georgia that resented Vulcan domination of United Earth throughout the 22nd Century.

Which is not, again, to say that they necessarily agree with those prejudices intellectually. People are complex beings, more than capable of harboring feelings to which they intellectually object. I've known more than a few white people who believed with all their hearts that racism was wrong, but still felt uncomfortable around blacks or Latinos. It's entirely plausible for both McCoy and Spock to hold some prejudiced feelings without always agreeing with their own prejudices.

Bottom line: People -- and feelings of alienation -- are complex.

But isn't their way to deal with their prejudices, live them out in their friendship, soak them after some time in irony and playfulness and overcome them at least partly, better than some political correctness codex that would force them to suppress them? (I am not always for suppression. )

 

[Mark 2000]

Try going around talking about someone's hair or skin or eyes or some other racial-specific features. Someone WILL take it too seriously, it WON'T be accepted in the context of playful back-and-forth bantering...

Termination, mandatory sensitivity re-education, public apologies, it goes on and on. Oh well.

Lets put things in proper perspective here. Humans didn't conquer and subjugate Vulcan for 500 years and then use jim crow laws to keep them down for another 100. Playful racial banter does not exist on Earth for good reason. It's too loaded. I know it's fashionable to say being "PC" is bullshit - and some of it is - but a lot of it isn't. I rather be PC than hurt hurt and alienate someone by saying something I don't even believe. What exactly is the fun of that?

McCoy has a little bit too much venom in his barks for me to think there isn't a subtext to it -- I think he was probably raised in a subculture down in Georgia that resented Vulcan domination of United Earth throughout the 22nd Century.

I think it's important to remember that, unlike the perfect 24th C crew of TNG, the TOS crew were 1960's people living in the future. So McCoy is basically an analogue of the deep southern good old boy, but one that is trying hard to change his ways because he's an honestly good person and he sees that those around him aren't going to put up with it. When McCoy realizes he being an ass he's quick to admit it.

 

[YARN]

It's a funny distinction, but the fact is most racism is based on dehumanizing others. In other words, making the victim into another species. They didn't call it the "Jewish/Human border" in Polish towns for nothing.

Yeah, but it's both a partial (1) distinction and a wrong (2) one.

(1) Even the most vicious racist still identifies "inferior" races as subhuman. This implies partial inclusion/relation. This relation does not hold between a Horta and a Human.

(2) Racists are ontologically wrong in marking phenotypic traits of humans mark a distinction between what is biologically human and what isn't. In some cases, the extreme racist might think she is a proud speciesist ("They really aren't human!"), but in fact she is merely a racist, because there is no species distinction between human racial groups.

In the Trek universe, however, a person IS correct in making the claim, for example, that Calamarians are not humans. And if this person were a bigot, that person would not be properly called a racist, but rather a speciesist.

 

[Paradon]

I guess it could be called racists if you think humans are better than aliens in some ways.

And I think every culture have a preconcieve notion about other cultures in some ways that could be defined as racist. But that attitute is changing due to the internet.

 

[7thsealord]

I guess it could be called racists if you think humans are better than aliens in some ways.

... And if aliens think themselves better than humans in some ways?

 

[horatio83]

Other than the Klingons being a Soviet analogue in the fact they were a second power in the galaxy that was vying for influence over less powerful nations, Klingons bear NO resemblance to the USSR or China. They aren't communists. They don't have a particularly Asian culture - aside from their facial hair. They're militaristic and not democratic - but then again we only see their military in TOS, never the civilians. Again, you don't seem to have a grasp over the subtleties of an inspiration leading to something fleshed out and just relying on stereotypes. There's are reason why people like Klingons up to their over-vikingization, and never ever liked the Ferengi.

You described their ridiculous facial make-up yourself and still don't see that they are easily the most racist species in Trek?
Beware of those nasty space-Mongols, they'll overrun us!

Vikings don't exist anymore, that's the key difference between the "over-Vikingization" and the "over-Mongolization" of the two respective types of Klingons.

That's the problem of PC, people see racism in everything but ignore really existing racism.

 

[Mark 2000]

You described their ridiculous facial make-up yourself and still don't see that they are easily the most racist species in Trek?

You're right dude. The paragraphs of stuff I wrote is pointless because they had mustaches. There's really no way I can have a discussion with you if you're going to omit 90% of what I said and just yell "Mongol Hoards" at me.

 

[Paradon]

I guess it could be called racists if you think humans are better than aliens in some ways.

... And if aliens think themselves better than humans in some ways?

Probably...

 

[horatio83]

You described their ridiculous facial make-up yourself and still don't see that they are easily the most racist species in Trek?

You're right dude. The paragraphs of stuff I wrote is pointless because they had mustaches. There's really no way I can have a discussion with you if you're going to omit 90% of what I said and just yell "Mongol Hoards" at me.

I am not yelling and your precious 90% was a denial that there is anything Asian about TOS Klingons. I don't omitted it, I disagreed with it.
About your previous points, stereotyping is not the same as racism. The TOS Klingons have been, as you neatly pointed out, great characters but they are nonetheless utterly racist.

The Jew of the Nazis was at the same time a Bolshevik and a capitalist. So to even function properly a piece of Nazi propaganda has to include two types of Jews. Still sounds like stereotyping but what if the actual propaganda piece was not as blunt and included fully sketched out individuals? Did not happen to my knowledge but you can easily imagine a piece of more subtle propaganda. By your definition that'd not be racist because there are believable rich individual characters.

 

[JRoss]

Mark 2000 your argument is flawed. My wife (Tsimshian First Nations) and I (mostly white) banter playfully about race all the time. Thus, it does exist.

 

[Mark 2000]

I am not yelling and your precious 90% was a denial that there is anything Asian about TOS Klingons. I don't omitted it, I disagreed with it.

You can't call the Klingons "The most Racist characters on Star Trek". That's nonsense. They had a physical basis, but none of the behavioral characteristics. Their look is thoughtless, but their personalities were not. As opposed to Ferengi who, lets really face it, are Jews. They aren't elephants or what ever you said. They have big noses, love money, are small, ugly, and slump a lot. They take on the exact poses of the international jew. Not to mention they were rumored to eat their business partners like Christian children in a soup. And they are often played by Jews as was also pointed out. Do you need to be hit over the head? That's a full blown historical racail caricature. In fact anytime someone loves money on TNG they're Jews - like Kivas Fajo who was played like a neuraotic, nebish fop all the way through and even wore a yarmulke.

stereotyping is not the same as racism.

I've never heard anything so ridiculous. You can't just redefine a word or concept to meet your own needs. Stereotyping is based on prejudging people. Prejudice against people leads to how you treat them, hire them, and even walk passed them on the street. That's the definition of racism.

My wife (Tsimshian First Nations) and I (mostly white) banter playfully about race all the time. Thus, it does exist.

He said right before the sudden divorce.