Star Trek - Racist?

[7thsealord]

Some people refer to Kirk and his statements in TUC as racist. But are they? His "let them die" might be the result of years of observing the Klingons in action, and simply wishing the the whole thing to be over with.

I think Kirk was "acting out" as much as anything else. There was the death of his son at Klingon hands (which he clearly still had issues about - who can blame him?), Spock's sudden bombshell, impending retirement (which would have made for a ... less than even emotional state anyhow), and possibly other occurrances that all led to him speaking in haste and anger.

Certainly, Kirk had absolutely no reason whatsoever to LIKE Klingons, but his attitude in TOS was .... much more tolerant. He might have had no hesitation in fighting Klingons then, but I always thought that he'd have baulked at causing or allowing their outright extinction. The Kirk seen early in TUC was, for me, very disturbing.

Then again ...
Someone who has defended the Federation for most of their life, could be forgiven for looking upon the major misfortunes of his (perceived) foes as A Very Good Thing. Certainly, there was at least one person at that meeting who had much worse thoughts.

 

[Paradon]

I think my neighbor is an alien in disguise. [laughing]

I'm joking, but ST has always been about this sort of stuff and I like it. Some things may not be accurate, but it's not necessary racist IMO.

so it does have room for improvement...

 

[7thsealord]

... As with most things.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

We're talking about two different things. Humans share most traits in common because we're the same species. But compare humans to another species, and of course there should be mammoth differences.

There should be far more differences than Star Trek ever depicts, in fact. Star Trek aliens are more like just new races of homo sapiens than truly alien aliens.

 

[7thsealord]

We're talking about two different things. Humans share most traits in common because we're the same species. But compare humans to another species, and of course there should be mammoth differences.

There should be far more differences than Star Trek ever depicts, in fact. Star Trek aliens are more like just new races of homo sapiens than truly alien aliens.

W-e-l-l, I believe the idea always was to not make the aliens TOO weird, because (a) it is expensive, and (b) the audience then has trouble identifying with them as characters - and generally understanding what the frick is going on.

I mean, using CGI, one could have a recurring alien race that is completely non-humanoid and expresses all emotion by changing colours. But, really, how can that compare with some of the exceptional actors they have had in for various roles?

It simply can't.

Recalling also that, in the earliest drafts of TNG, they were going to have the Enterprise-D's Captain be a non-human alien (portrayed by some kind of puppet). Instead, they ended up getting Patrick Stewart. Go figure.

 

[Cyke101]

Some people refer to Kirk and his statements in TUC as racist. But are they? His "let them die" might be the result of years of observing the Klingons in action, and simply wishing the the whole thing to be over with.

I want to say Kirk was racist, but more importantly that the writers intended for him to be racist, if only so that the big message at the end is hammered through and Kirk would fittingly be a man who rises above racism for the new generation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Certainly, Kirk had absolutely no reason whatsoever to LIKE Klingons, but his attitude in TOS was .... much more tolerant.

Agreed. He actually seemed to *enjoy* sparring with Koloth, for example.

As for his attitude in ST VI? Understandable. Klingons killed his son, so naturally he blames them. Plus his previous experiences with Klingons have taught him not to trust them. It's an extreme emotional reaction. Doesn't mean Kirk's racist, as such. He has never exhibited that tendency before. This is a special case.

 

[RandyS]

^ But Troi is a half-Betazoid. I always assumed her weaker abilities were the result of being half-human.

So did I.

And Star Trek is not racist.

Good god.....

 

[F. King Daniel]

He seemed happy enough drinking with the Klingons at the end of Star Trek V, about 3 years before VI.

 

[horatio83]

Political correctness has definitely gone too far if people confuse the stereotypical portrayal of alien species which has obvious dramatic reasons with racism.

 

[captcalhoun]

Shatner actually wanted to recoil at his own words in VI, but Meyer cut that bit out. and the novelisation sets up his antipathy further as Chang's BOP had been raiding border colonies before Praxis exploded and one it hit was the one where Carol Marcus lived and she was injured, so he was kinda pissed about that.


Star Trek is damned ethnocentric, though.

 

[JRoss]

Star Trek takes place on a Galactic Scale. Realistically you would have a bunch of Earth analogs with varying cultures within a race. We had that with Bajor a little, but generally is not present in Trek.

Here's why: it's hard to create diverse cultures. It's easier to make a race have one monolithic culture and government, as well as one "hat."

When you are telling a story on that large of a scale, aliens get marginalized. The important thing is that no real group of humans gets marginalized.

 

[JRoss]

Planet of Hats is not racist. Aliens are fictional, who cares if we step on their toes? Humans are better than Ferengi, better than Klingons, etc.

As for the "Ferengi as Jews" argument, consider this:

1: It was stated that the Ferengi are actually caricatures of capitalists, specifically Republicans of the 80s. Thus the elephant noses and ears.

2: Why would Armin Shimerman, Max Grodenchik, Aron Eisenberg and Wallace Shawn (of all people) play Covetous Jews?

 

[JarodRussell]

2: Why would Armin Shimerman, Max Grodenchik, Aron Eisenberg and Wallace Shawn (of all people) play Covetous Jews?

They were all forced to do it.

 

[JRoss]

^Ah, yes. I forgot that they don't live in a free society.

 

[Mark 2000]

Planet of Hats is not racist.

Planet of hats is a trope of laziness in order to use the same kind of writing that people used in the old days when it was ok to pigeon hole people based on ethnicity by casting it on "aliens".

Basically it's sizing up entire an entire race of people based on one very simplistic trait they all share - or stereotyping. If stereotyping is wrong and stupid in real life, why is it less wrong in fiction? Especially quasi-utopean fiction that says we're all brothers under the skin?

As for the "Ferengi as Jews" argument, consider this:

You're strawmanning me. I didn't call the Ferengi "Space Jews". That's another argument. I asked you how you would feel if the conversation between Quark, Paris, and Kim replaced the word "Ferengi" with "Jew" or "Arab". Would it make you uncomfortable? Would it be wrong?

Why would Armin Shimerman, Max Grodenchik, Aron Eisenberg and Wallace Shawn (of all people) play Covetous Jews?

And no black actor ever played a pimp or a mugger or a sambo. Actors have sooooo much integrity.

 

[Kertrats47]

I'm reminded of Riker in the episode "A Perfect Mate," after the Enterprise rescues the two Ferengi from their damaged ship.

He says something along the lines of "Find quarters for the Ferengi. Not too close to mine." This was BEFORE the Ferengi did anything illegal (which, of course, they eventually did). This line always really surprised and disturbed me.

 

[YARN]

Human racism turns on a false ontological distinction between human beings.

Alien races, however, are different species.

In literal terms, Trek is "speciesist."

Speciesism is easier to defend than racism, because different species are ontologically different.

 

[Mark 2000]

I'm reminded of Riker in the episode "A Perfect Mate," after the Enterprise rescues the two Ferengi from their damaged ship.

What's more funny is that in the same episode the Metamorph says this:

Nevertheless, this is who I am, Captain. You might as well ask a Vulcan to forgo logic... or a Klingon to be nonviolent. I cannot change...

And Picard doesn't correct her or use her racism against her. He just nods and let's it go like it's a valid point.

Alien races, however, are different species.
In literal terms, Trek is "speciesist."

It's a funny distinction, but the fact is most racism is based on dehumanizing others. In other words, making the victim into another species. They didn't call it the "Jewish/Human border" in Polish towns for nothing.

 

[horatio83]

You are obviously not aware of the dramatic necessity to simplify a species.

You can't introduce the Ferengi and in the next episodes featuring them show Ferengi dissidents like Moggie. You can't introduce Klingons, who were by the way far more racist in TOS than in TNG as Vikings are no more, and immediately show the different honour concepts of a warrior, a lawyer and a doctor. You can't introduce the Vulcans and immediately follow up with Sybok.

By your hyper political correct line of thought Vulcans are treated in a racist way until TFF and McCoy is the worst culprit. You obviously don't get that there is nothing racist about "you green-blooded, inhuman ...", just like there is nothing offensive about me calling my best friend names. The logic here is that you insult someone who is close to you in order to signal to him or her that you are beyond distanced politeness.