Star Trek - Racist?

[Anwar]

When TNG wanted to actually portray their aliens with diversity and depth, they did it pretty well.

"The Wounded" gave us a pretty 3-D intro to the Cardassians, and "Ensign Ro" to the Bajorans.

With the Ferengi, odds are that since they had decided the Ferengi were going to be comic relief there wasn't much point. Except for Daimon Bok and that Ferengi scientist Dr Crusher was friends with.

The Klingons did have the whole "Space Mongol" look, but aside from that they were written to have no real distinctive traits besides being antagonists to the Federation. You could have just had them be renegade humans and there'd be no difference.

Which is the crux point: TOS had them be visually different but otherwise wrote them with no race distinctions in mind, where TNG usually associated characteristics to their aliens to go along with the appearance.

As for Spock and McCoy, Spock was just as racist as McCoy was which also made him a hypocrite: He'd go on about all of humanity's flaws, but always conveniently forgot that the Vulcans used to be worse than humanity EVER was.

 

[Maurice]

I think this topic is teetering on the brink of something interesting.

I think Star Trek does often fall into the trap of portraying members of alien races as all from the same mold, but other times, as with the Cardassians, a wide range of personality types and behaviors are exhibited.

On the other hand, there is a certain amount of genetic hard-wiring in any Earthly species, and to an outsider some of that might make us all "look alike" in what we'd consider a superficial sense.

Does the fable of the Frog and the Scorpion play into human/Vulcan/Cardassian behavior? Is that racist?

Perhaps where Star Trek sometimes falls down is that is says of aliens something akin to "all Italians are human," but forgets to add that "but not all humans are Italians".

Discuss.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The Voyager two-parter Scorpion gets its name from a variant of the scorpion fable. From http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/321.htm:

CHAKOTAY: There's a story I heard as a child, a parable, and I never forgot it. A scorpion was walking along the bank of a river, wondering how to get to the other side Suddenly he saw a fox. He asked the fox to take him on his back across the river. The fox said no, if I do that you'll sting me, and I'll drown. The scorpion assured him, if I did that, we'd both drown. So the fox thought about it and finally agreed. So the scorpion climbed up on his back, and the fox began to swim. But halfway across the river, the scorpion stung him. As the poison filled his veins, the fox turned to the scorpion and said why did you do that? Now you'll drown too. I couldn't help it, said the scorpion. It's my nature.

Although certainly not true in every case, I've often found that an alien race in Star Trek serves as a metaphor for some aspect of human nature. In these cases, the alien race is homogeneous precisely because the metaphor is limited and specific.

 

[horatio83]

You can't call the Klingons "The most Racist characters on Star Trek". That's nonsense. They had a physical basis, but none of the behavioral characteristics. Their look is thoughtless, but their personalities were not. As opposed to Ferengi who, lets really face it, are Jews. They aren't elephants or what ever you said. They have big noses, love money, are small, ugly, and slump a lot. They take on the exact poses of the international jew. Not to mention they were rumored to eat their business partners like Christian children in a soup. And they are often played by Jews as was also pointed out. Do you need to be hit over the head? That's a full blown historical racail caricature. In fact anytime someone loves money on TNG they're Jews - like Kivas Fajo who was played like a neuraotic, nebish fop all the way through and even wore a yarmulke.

The Ferengi were meant to represent us, 20th century humans. As 24th century humans are socially more evolved than we the writers could only show the difference with the help of an alien species. They serve a dramatic goal and only a PC freak could consider them to be antisemitic.

I've never heard anything so ridiculous. You can't just redefine a word or concept to meet your own needs. Stereotyping is based on prejudging people. Prejudice against people leads to how you treat them, hire them, and even walk passed them on the street. That's the definition of racism.

It is yours, not mine. Yours might conclude that a piece of Nazi propaganda is not racist while mine would conclude that it is so I naturally stick with my definition.

My wife (Tsimshian First Nations) and I (mostly white) banter playfully about race all the time. Thus, it does exist.

He said right before the sudden divorce.

What a totally ignorant statement. Obviously you have never playfully insulted somebody close to you because if you had you would understand that there is a large difference between real insults and pseudo-insults among friends. Even a PC freak should be able to understand this.

 

[Maurice]

The Ferengi were meant to represent us, 20th century humans. As 24th century humans are socially more evolved than we the writers could only show the difference with the help of an alien species. They serve a dramatic goal and only a PC freak could consider them to be antisemitic.

Have you SEEN the early Ferengi sketch in The Art of Star Trek, p.94? Basically a short human with a big metal codpiece and a big nose.

I've never heard anything so ridiculous. You can't just redefine a word or concept to meet your own needs. Stereotyping is based on prejudging people. Prejudice against people leads to how you treat them, hire them, and even walk passed them on the street. That's the definition of racism.

It is yours, not mine. Yours might conclude that a piece of Nazi propaganda is not racist while mine would conclude that it is so I naturally stick with my definition.

racism |ˈrāˌsizəm|
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
• prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief : a program to combat racism.​

 

[horatio83]

I am a left-winger, you don't have provide me with dictionary definitions of racism.

Yeah, I recall that picture in the Reeves-Stevenses' book. As I already explained, the Ferengi served a dramatic purpose whereas the Klingons have been thinly veiled space Mongols, engaged in a Cold War with the Federation. Red scare is not a dramatic purpose.

 

[Maurice]

I am a left-winger, you don't have provide me with dictionary definitions of racism.

You said "so I naturally stick with my definition". In the interests of clarity in the thread I decided to post an actual definition, instead of "my" "your" or "our" definition.

 

[horatio83]

Mark's point was that a non-sterotypical portrayal of characters is non-racist, his example being Kor, Kang and Koloth.
My point was that racism is not the opposite of individualism as you can easily imagine a piece of racist propaganda with fully fleshed-out characters that tremendously differ from each other.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Another pattern I've noticed, that should be pretty obvious, is that the more episodes there are in which members of a given alien race appear, the more variety there is shown in the attributes of that species' members. This is easy enough to explain, since the more often they appear, the greater the number of man-hours spent writing about them, and the greater the opportunity to flesh-out the species.

A corollary is that if the race is the alien-of-the-week, then it has a greater likelihood of being much more homogeneous.

 

[horatio83]

Precisely. Even if species appear frequently they will can not be portrayed realistically as it is not dramatically feasible. There have to be moderate climate zones on Vulcan and Andoria but as we rarely see those places their idiosyncrasies have to be emphasized.
It took hundreds of episodes until we saw the Klingon honour concept of other members than the warrior class (Judgement, Affliction/Divergence). Doesn't mean the makers of Trek are speciesists.

 

[7thsealord]

.... Especially when one considers the constraints of a one-hour series or of a two hour movie.

"... What? You want me to cut how much of the actual plot for this monologue on Ferengi psychology? ...".

An oft-repeated piece of writing advice is 'Don't Tell Me, Show Me'.

 

[Mark 2000]

I am a left-winger, you don't have provide me with dictionary definitions of racism.

He obviously did, because the dictionary apparently agrees with me. I don't know what being a "left winger" has to do with anything.

the more episodes there are in which members of a given alien race appear, the more variety there is shown in the attributes of that species' members.

I don't find that always true. I think the line is more drawn between better written episodes and badly written ones. The more we saw of the Ferengi the more singular they became with greed turning from a facet into their entire way of life. The Klingons in TNG became more violent and savage until their fighting became their entire way of life. I don't think the Romulans gained any insight after TOS. The bajorans never ever got over being all religious and victims. At the same time I've seen plenty of one off aliens that weren't a planet of hats. These were mostly episodes where individuals were written within a society with a defining characteristic - The BOT Romulans, The Emenians, The Nuerals, The Mintakans, The Malcorians, even the Cardasians at first - rather than more sloppy episodes where the society defines the individuals' personalities - Code of Honor, Angel One, The Outcast.

 

[horatio83]

I don't know what being a "left winger" has to do with anything.

The reading of some history books might enlighten you.

 

[Mark 2000]

The reading of some history books might enlighten you.

Dude, you don't even know what the definition of "racism" is. Let's just mutually end this before it gets into ad hominem territory.

 

[horatio83]

I explained in depth the difference between your and my position. You don't wanna debate it because you have run out of arguments? Fine with me, just don't claim that a left-winger has no idea what one of the things he fights against, racism, actually is.

 

[Mark 2000]

I explained in depth the difference between your and my position. You don't wanna debate it because you have run out of arguments? Fine with me, just don't claim that a left-winger has no idea what one of the things he fights against, racism, actually is.

No, I think you've run out of arguments, and that's why you're redefining words to suit you and proclaiming yourself to have some kind of superiority because you're a "liberal". It's silly and it's going nowhere.

 

[horatio83]

You are the one who refuses the debate which I tried to initiate with the pathetic accusation that I had no idea what racism actually means.

If anyone is ignorant here it is the fellow who has no idea what left-wing politics and racism have to do with each other and who is not aware that liberalism has little per se to do with the left. You can be right-liberal, left-liberal or just liberal.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

the more episodes there are in which members of a given alien race appear, the more variety there is shown in the attributes of that species' members.

I don't find that always true. I think the line is more drawn between better written episodes and badly written ones. The more we saw of the Ferengi the more singular they became with greed turning from a facet into their entire way of life. The Klingons in TNG became more violent and savage until their fighting became their entire way of life. I don't think the Romulans gained any insight after TOS. The bajorans never ever got over being all religious and victims. At the same time I've seen plenty of one off aliens that weren't a planet of hats. These were mostly episodes where individuals were written within a society with a defining characteristic - The BOT Romulans, The Emenians, The Nuerals, The Mintakans, The Malcorians, even the Cardasians at first - rather than more sloppy episodes where the society defines the individuals' personalities - Code of Honor, Angel One, The Outcast.

This is a good point.

 

[Maurice]

The fact is, several posters have gotten off-track saying "you're saying this" instead of letting their arguments speak for themselves.

Let's get more fundamental. Can we agree that racism means:

racism |ˈrāˌsizəm|
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
• prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief : a program to combat racism.​