Wasn't that a Dylan song?
Spoilers Star Trek: Prodigy General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The Overlord
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Yeah - it only took 30 years for them to FINALLY write the character of Deanna Troi like an actual Psychological Counselor in Ep. 7 of 'Picard' - and I am not a big fan of TNG (or the 'Picard' series) and never really liked the character - but I did in that episode; and thought "Wow she actually doing her job here, and sounds competent..." <--- And during TNG that aspect of the character wasn't the fault of the actress Marina Sirtis; that was on the writing staff of TNG and it seems no one there knew how to write a convincing Psychological Counselor; but it appears Michael Chabon does.
To be fair (kind of) to TNG writers the acceptance of mental health counseling the 80s was still very poor. You didn't talk about therapy or going to a counselor as a general rule. That attitude has shifted quite a lot in the past decade even, though I occasional run in to that attitude of counseling is just "hippy bullshit" from clients. So, understanding how to write a counselor correctly probably wasn't top of TNG's priority list. It's stupid, but I do think Chabon did a more positive job, possibly owing to a cultural attitude shift.
The problem with Troi on TNG was that the writers were too busy trying to write around her empathic abilities to pay attention to what her actual job was supposed to be.
True - about 90% of her dialog during the entire series run up through Nemesis was "Bad vibes, Captain, bad vibes!" It wasn't until Picard came along, 30-some years later, did they have writers competent enough to know how to actually write for her character without regurgitating what Q correctly referred to as "pedantic psychobabble". She showed an astonishing wisdom in dealing with her daughter, Picard and Dahj, all while still obviously coming to terms with the death of her boy. I was truly amazed to discover that I had developed a whole new-found respect for her character after "Nepenthe". An amazing depth that the character clearly long-deserved. Took far too long for them to figure it out, IMO.
IDK - by the time TNG started and was in pre-production (1986) - I don't recall the above being the case WRT 'public acceptance'. (I was 23 in 1986 BTW). My father was seeing one regularly; and I even tried it for 3 years myself - although in the end, yes, for me it was a waste of time as I didn't feel the psychologist was helping me recognize anything that I hadn't already recognized myself (I have always been into self introspection during my life).
But, no, I don't feel it was that 'looked down on" ; or heavily ridiculed in the 1980s <--- Hell during that decade and into the 1990s a lot of people were openly admitting that they were going to or 'had' a psychologist. Hell M*A*S*H (1972-1983) had a decently written psychologist character Dr. Sidney Freedman.
Plus psychology was nothing new -m and if you HAD a main character that was SUPPOSED to be a ship psychologist/psychiatrist; you'd think that a group of people writing for such a character might do a thing good writers often do and that's research.
There's no real excuse for how poorly the character was written WRT her 'professional position' onboard the 1701-D <--- Bad/Lazy writing is bad/lazy writing.
Of course the funny thing to me WRT the Counselor Deanna Troi character was: IF Starfleet does all these psychological tests to 'weed out' those who are the type for deep space exploration on star ships AND (per GR) by the 24th century even your average human is generally psychologically 'well adjusted' to begin with - WHY did you need a supposed psychiatric specialist on a Federation Starship that sits on the Bridge next to the Captain to begin with? (seriously)
All good points - we've seen lots of truly damaged individuals acting (GASP!) HUMAN!
Another easy hole-poke in the B.S. Roddenberrian Vision™ of the perfect utopia.
Another easy hole-poke in the B.S. Roddenberrian Vision™ of the perfect utopia.
Marina has said that Troi's IQ went up once she was given a regular Starfleet uniform!
Bear in mind that TNG was written by the same people who would later go on to shove Jeri Ryan in a catsuit, corset, and heels for four seasons on Voyager!
Marina herself has skewered the character. Troi had a knack for stating the blindingly obvious ("I sense anger, Captain").
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She said as the Klingon hovered over Riker with his Bat'leth.
I'm sorry, but speaking as someone who was in therapy for most of the '80s, I have to say you're completely wrong about this. If anything, there was much more societal acceptance of therapy in the '70s and '80s than there has been since. Heck, the whole reason they included a therapist as a bridge officer in TNG was because therapy was so hip in the '80s. It was later on that societal attitudes backslid, perhaps in part because President Reagan totally gutted the national mental health system that his predecessors had built up. (Naturally it takes a while for widespread cultural changes to settle in.)
I read once that the writing of Troi as a therapist improved once Michael Piller and Jeri Taylor (I think -- or maybe it was Ron Moore?) came on board, because they were in therapy themselves and had firsthand experience of how it worked. I feel they did a pretty good job in later seasons of showing her counseling people through the aftermath of major traumas, like Picard after BOBW and Geordi after "The Mind's Eye." It was mainly in the early seasons that she wasn't written well, but people tend to lump the whole series together in retrospect.
Bear in mind that TNG was written by the same people who would later go on to shove Jeri Ryan in a catsuit, corset, and heels for four seasons on Voyager!
Not that many, really. Michael Piller was gone by the time Seven came along. Jeri Taylor (TNG season 6-7 showrunner) was only around for Seven's first season, whereas Brannon Braga (VGR season 5-6 showrunner) was only an intern and bottom-rung staff writer in TNG's last season or two. Otherwise, they only had Rene Echevarria and Joe Menosky in common, and neither of them were in charge of either series.
Mileage will vary. I just know what I heard from my parents and experienced. People looked at me sideways when I said I wanted to be a counselor at 18. I agree that it was poor writing but I just don't think it therapy was totally where it was now.
But, yes, Star Trek could have done better, especially since McCoy was stated as a "space psychology expert" (I don't remember the exact phrasing).
We can't have that.
Just going off my experience. Apologies then, since clearly that was not the norm.
I feel therapy is in a far more positive place than before in terms of social acceptance.
i think a lot of it has been the success and popularity of medication has resulted in a de-emphasis on the importance of therapy in terms of mental health treatment.
In addition, things like Freudian analysis were still well-respected in the 1980s, and now really derided as pseudoscience as we get a better understanding of how the brain really works.
"SHADDAP ya green-blooded hob-goblin!!!"
I've known a great many people who could have benefited from that kind of therapy.
Interesting, especially since my graduate program still had psychoanalytic practitioners in it.
Somewhere I have a comic of Dr. Phil's Drive through therapy. "You're stupid. Next."
Also, to add, thank you to @Christopher and @Noname Given for sharing their therapy experiences. Very helpful.
They tried medication with me for a bit, and it didn't work well at all. I found talking to a therapist much more helpful. But the medications have probably improved since the '80s, I guess.
The literature primarily shows benefit from medication and therapy or just therapy. Medication alone is not well indicated. But, there is a lot more variety in the medications now. I don't like them but they are useful.
Maybe that's why the people in my life had such a negative view.For the money I paid, I do wish said therapt session HAD been more helpful.
Yeah, that seems to be a common thread amongst many I've known who have seen a therapist and felt they had derived very little benefit from the experience. They probably would have done better with a service dog, honestly.
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