Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Forever94, Feb 25, 2020.
T'Pol's outfit is at least somewhat less cringe-worthy that Seven's. It looks like clothes.
I dare say at the time, as a younger and less-wise meerkat, I was actually titillated a bit by the outfits, but even then, not all that much. Seven's character, the way she developed from Borg drone to someone grappling with her humanity, was far more important, but, rightly or wrongly, VOY's critics drew attention to the 'sex sells' approach that went with her outfit...
Those scenes didn't do much for me either, it must be said that both T'Pol and Sevens presence did help the shows though.
Yes, and those short skirts in TOS as well. But let's not forget that in TNG men also wore short skirts.
There are instances when men also wore skin-tight suits. For example John Doe from the TNG episode Transfigurations. I think, generally, the uniforms were pretty tight, for both men and women. At least in early TNG.
Bele and Lokai left little to the imagination as well. One could theorize that their jumpsuits allowed them to generate those personal force fields from a device on the collar.
I can't speak for ENT, but I do think Seven of Nine really carried the fourth season of VOY. A lot of the best episodes after that also focused on her. But I'll call the seventh season more of a Doctor and Paris/Torres (a.k.a. "Parres") season.
Plus, it's worth noting that not every discrepancy requires an "in-universe" explanation. Sometimes the real-world explanation-- i.e. they couldn't have said "fuck" on the previous shows even if they'd wanted to--is more than enough.
There was no CGI, bumpy-headed Klingons, female captains, or gay characaters on TOS because well, it was the sixties. Should all subsequent Trek shows have avoided such things simply for the sake of consistency and to avoid "jarring" old-time viewers? Of course not.
So why should the new, new shows avoid f-bombs for the same reason?
Yeah, I did find some parts of Voyager to be a bit boring, it was OK on first viewing because it was new but I don't think I have bothered to watch many of the episodes again since that first viewing except for the Borg, Species 8472/Hirogen and Krenim Temporal stuff.
The Doctor was solid throughout the series and helped a lot, Paris was good but underused but that did improve when he and Torres became an item.
I think they just ran out of ideas with the others, I don't think they really ever had any idea with Chakotay's character.
I do wonder if a few "rough drafts" might have included a few swear words, knowing they'd be excised later.
"That's Captain Cocksucker to you, Beverly!"
-JL Picard, uncensored edit of TNG episode "Attached"
At times. Mostly in early seasons.
I make no assumptions about you. However, I am noticing how the arguments come across. If I misread I apologize. I don't know you so can assume nothing about you personally.
Had the budget not been so tight back then, they would've surely included those things in the 60s already. Other things, like female captains, may be viewed as an "evolution" or a "progress". Can the same be said for use of "f-bombs"? Besides, saying that they should be avoided seems to imply as if they're something necessary, almost inevitable. Instead of putting it "should be avoided", I'd simply say "no need to be used".
I think this is a good argument in general. But I think it avoids addressing the context of how language was used in TNG overall. For the majority of TNG they spoke in a very particular way, and even Fireproof acknowledges this. So it gives the viewer the impression that common strong profanity is out of vogue, and in addition, people overall speak in a more refined way. However, that seemed to be changing towards the end of TNG. I remember the crew seemed to loosen up a bit, like when they were discussing some boring speaker while aboard a shuttle craft, or Crusher getting frustrated at Barclay's sitcom-like neurotic behavior.
In PIC they use strong profanity, and also speak in a more casual way that's reflective of Earth today, or a television show set in the present day. This isn't true for all characters. Picard and Hugh speak the same way they spoke in TNG, whereas all the new characters, regardless of age, speak just like regular people in 2020 speak.
I don't think there was an intention to NOT include female captains or gay characters. I don't think Roddenberry or the producers were trying to get across that in the future women can't be captains or that gay people don't exist. However, I think regardless of the censorship of profanity at the time, the producers did seem to try to make the speaking style different from that of how regular people talked in 1987-1994.
No. They do whatever they feel will make the show successful. It was a novelty to have a Star Trek future where the crew didn't constantly bicker like normal prime time television characters or speak in common slang.
However, now, it's a novelty to have a Star Trek future that feels more "realistic" in terms of how characters speak to one another.
There's pros and cons on both sides of the debate, in my opinion. Ultimately I side with the producers, in that having no swearing and the faux Shakespeare-like dialogue might be considered quaint to modern audiences.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
I like the show and I think the more casual speaking style can come across as refreshing, although it took me a bit getting used to at first.
The budget was actually pretty good for a show made in the 60's.
They pretty much said "no female captains" in the final TOS episode. And I believe there is a record of Roddenberry and later Berman squashing any attempts to include gay characters.
Language also evolves. The Federation going through a war would impact how people communicate. Especially for Starfleet.
Yup. David Gerrold noted that.
Then I take that back. I was going to include "at least not that I know of" in my post but I got lazy. I'm not that familiar with TOS.
In regards to gay characters, do you know if Roddenberry and Berman doing that based on their own prejudices or because they felt it was too risky commercially speaking? I remember when watching that episode of Riker falling for the gender-less character, it felt like it was an awkward way to address the issue of gay prejudice. You have this episode in the future where one species is facing prejudice for identifying as heterosexual, yet we never saw ANY homosexual characters in all of TNG? I don't think it was ever even hinted at. I didn't really notice it till that particular episode.
It felt too on the nose, and yet too subtle. Like they thought they were making a bold stance, but actually it wasn't bold at all.
Here's a quote from Memory Alpha:
Well the attitude in PIC towards addiction and drug use is certainly a lot more progressive then TNG.
Granted in DS9 (Im thinking the Red Squad ep....or any ep of Trek actually towards stims) they seemed to have an attitude of "Wellllll...if as long as you show up to work on time".
Separate names with a comma.