Missed that part, sorry.
Spoilers Star Trek: Picard General Discussion Thread
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Exactly, she was. She obviously made a decision to leave the Tal Shiar and the Romulan people behind. Granted, the destruction of her homeworld and the subsequent collapse of the Romulan Star Empire played a part in that, but we know there is a Romulan government in the form of the Romulan Free State and they still have a version of the Tal Shiar. Since Laris has chosen to have nothing to do with either, and is instead working on Picard's vineyard and has become a sort of bodyguard to Picard. This would be enough reason for Worf to see her as a person and judge her on her own merits rather than just declaring her a Romulan and not wanting anything further to do with her.
Worf of 2379 was not the same person as Worf of 2366 who refused to give blood to save someone's life just because they were Romulan. No reason to think Worf of 2401 would be similarly predisposed to hate Laris just because of her past either.
I don't see Worf having any issue with Elnor. I think the two would have quite a few points of kinship, in fact: they both strive for an honorable warrior ideal, they're both orphans, they were both raised in circumstances extremely atypical for their respective cultures, and they were both the first of their kind at the Academy. But two people can respect each other and still have very different opinions on matters that fall under their overlapping areas of expertise.
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Continuing with my Season 1 rewatch and it was Stardust City Rag. I think it was the first big misstep of the season. Tonally it's all over the place and it never settles down long enough to focus on one person. We've got Seven's revenge plot, Maddox, Raffi and Son... I don't know. Too much about this one is daft for me. I like the idea of exploring places like Freecloud though. Still not bad, but I recall feeling the first time through that this episode was a bit of a stumble.
Also, how did Elnor turn into a idiot in the space of an episode? He's the centre of more than one lame fish out of water gag here and he comes over quite stupid, with the rest of the series regulars patronising him.
There's good stuff sprinkled in. The Facers Guild, Rios's outfit, Seven going back and blasting the bad guy anyway... I just found this one to be rather disjointed.
Also, how did Elnor turn into a idiot in the space of an episode? He's the centre of more than one lame fish out of water gag here and he comes over quite stupid, with the rest of the series regulars patronising him.
There's good stuff sprinkled in. The Facers Guild, Rios's outfit, Seven going back and blasting the bad guy anyway... I just found this one to be rather disjointed.
Honestly, when I see ST4 on a Trek BBS while the 4th Kelvin movie is a current topic.... I'm thinking Star Trek 4 as well
That is a problem seemed to have with Elnor, in that they didn't really seem to know how to use him. When he's first introduced, he seems to be a surrogate son for Picard, then quickly becomes comic relief before ending up as Seven's sidekick. Then in season 2 he gets killed and in death becomes Raffi's surrogate son, despite the fact I don't think the two of them had any direct interactions in the first season.
Raffi gave him a hug in the finale when he was crying over Picard's death. Their surrogate mother-son relationship seems to have been born of that moment and developed completely off-screen.
Most of the content of this season would have been considerably improved if there had been a couple more seasons beforehand, to actually develop the characters and their relationships on-screen before bringing them to this end.
Or, you know, if the writers had had a clear plan for how to develop the character dynamics from the start and stuck to it, instead of just throwing them out there and seeing what happened.
To be fair, a lot of character relationships are born out of interactions between the actors not so much the writing. That is one of the issues with the streaming, serialized models. You find something good out of the performances that might not be there on the page and everything is typically already written. You can make some changes but it takes the audiences really clinging onto it in order to make a thing. I honestly think a lot of the messiness of season two came out of the fan reaction to the characters of season one. You have Jurati and Elnor, who generally audiences didn’t give a lot of credence to, being written out. Not sure what the situation with Rios is because he was genuinely seen favorably.
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Say it louder. Hopefully the creatives over at Paramount will hear.
Even with the Covid bubbles, I really feel like more could have been done with the supporting cast, especially with Elnor, who was given zero development or agency this season. Again, I get that this is Picard's show, but if the writers rarely seem to give a flip about the rest of the cast's storylines making sense or having emotional impact, they're really wasting the audience's time.
Honestly. Yes. This. Before the season began, when the cast were doing their pre-season press calls and first started talking about being paired off in covid bubbles, I was on record here on this forum saying that I was worried about what this meant for the group dynamic of the show, because an ensemble cast lives or dies by the way the various characters bounce off one another, so if they don't get the chance to do that...well, this season stands as a good example of how badly it goes. And I keep remembering when the various trailers were released and we all sat here going, "Where the hell is Soji? She must be being held back for spoilerish reasons!" and it never occurred to any of us that she would be written out of the show after the first episode, or that Elnor would be killed off early on in the third, when both of their actors are part of the regular cast and took part in the press tour as such. And sure, this is Picard's show, but it was cast as an ensemble and I just can't get over what a waste it is to spend the whole of season one assembling such a strong new cast around him, creating all these new characters simply bursting with potential for development, and then just...not bothering. Just discarding them all, one by one, rather than even attempt to tell a story that includes and develops them. What's the point?Say it louder. Hopefully the creatives over at Paramount will hear.
They also featured Laris heavily on promo pics and all (she got her own picture in Ten Forward) and all we saw of her this season were a few scenes in the first episode and now (most likely) some more scenes in the final episode. I get that they probably felt it would be a bad idea to reveal Not!Laris since it would have spoiled the watcher surprise, but still. It was misleading since Laris also got pretty much zero further character development other than serving as a sudden romantic plot device for Jean-Luc.
Well, 18 months had passed, and she lost her husband. Maybe she hadn't thought of Picard in that way until the opportunity arose?
Laris ----> Beverly for me.
Q —-> Laris for me
I don’t care much for het ships, especially not on Star Trek I do get the Laris angle and where it comes from tho don’t get me wrong, but I dislike it when a female character is used solely as a romantic plot device for a male character. I know that this is a TNG and general Trek tradition, but it’s not one I cared to have repeated. I’d have preferred for Laris to stand on her own as a character and to get her own adventures/moments. I think THAT is what the fandom meant when it said “hey we like Laris, can we bring her back”. Orla Brady literally said that she was asked back in part due to the enthusiastic fan reactions to Laris in season 1. Which makes it all even more annoying that all they could think of to do with her was “oh cool we’ll bring her back… but solely for romance”. I know that they will reveal a connection between her and Not!Laris, Brady did say there is one, but it all still seems kinda meh? idk. I’m not an expert on het ships and how they work tho… I’ll go back to the slash corner where I belong
Yeah Laris meeting Not!Laris would have made for some interesting dialog although I really dislike the “love triangle” trope when it involves two ladies fussing over a guy. Why bother with that? I’m always like “Ladies, don’t bother with the guy - why don’t you just dump him and warp into the sunset together? Much less hassle that way!”
Oh yeah the kind of love Q has for Jean-Luc remains a subject for debate - I know that. Some (like me) argue it could be romantic love, others say it’s more of a “cosmic tension” love, etc etc. There are many possibilities and I’m miffed that the show doesn’t seem to be interested in exploring them DESPITE Goldsman actually saying that the writers of the show examined “EVERY possible relationship” between Jean-Luc and Q when they discussed their interactions in PIC season 2. Where is all that??? I know, one episode left and there will be a confrontation, but… with all the fuss they made in advance about Q being on the show I expected a bit more. I mean even de Lancie said he wished he’d had more scenes with Sir Patrick.
But, back to what I was saying - I honestly think at this point it should be pretty obvious that Q loves Jean-Luc (in whichever way). Both de Lancie and Sir Patrick have said so, as did even the TNG writers in more recent interviews (!) and definitely the PIC writers/producers. Everybody knows it. Except the characters on screen who never talk about it. Argh?
Speaking of different kinds of love, or the possibilities. There's that brief exchange between Picard and Q at the end of TNG's series finale where it looks like Q is going to kiss him. The part where Picard asks Q what he's trying to tell him. That was an "Oh my!" moment for me.Yeah Laris meeting Not!Laris would have made for some interesting dialog although I really dislike the “love triangle” trope when it involves two ladies fussing over a guy. Why bother with that? I’m always like “Ladies, don’t bother with the guy - why don’t you just dump him and warp into the sunset together? Much less hassle that way!”
Oh yeah the kind of love Q has for Jean-Luc remains a subject for debate - I know that. Some (like me) argue it could be romantic love, others say it’s more of a “cosmic tension” love, etc etc. There are many possibilities and I’m miffed that the show doesn’t seem to be interested in exploring them DESPITE Goldsman actually saying that the writers of the show examined “EVERY possible relationship” between Jean-Luc and Q when they discussed their interactions in PIC season 2. Where is all that??? I know, one episode left and there will be a confrontation, but… with all the fuss they made in advance about Q being on the show I expected a bit more. I mean even de Lancie said he wished he’d had more scenes with Sir Patrick.
But, back to what I was saying - I honestly think at this point it should be pretty obvious that Q loves Jean-Luc (in whichever way). Both de Lancie and Sir Patrick have said so, as did even the TNG writers in more recent interviews (!) and definitely the PIC writers/producers. Everybody knows it. Except the characters on screen who never talk about it. Argh?
Yup. That’s exactly the kind of thing I mean. That moment should have been a (brief) kiss and a confession right there - and by the way, Jean-Luc is not moving an inch in that scene, he could have stepped back or away when Q leaned in but he remained right where he was… curious as to what Q’s gonna do, mon capitaine?
(after all, he did say “To learn about you is, frankly, provocative” in “Q Who”)But, alas, it was TNG, (in)famous for its strict heteronormativity - HEAVEN FORBID they had two dudes kissing on that show, even if it was just briefly (I’m not asking for a minute-long mega romance level kiss here). Much less the CAPTAIN kissing a guy, OH NO, THE SKY WOULD HAVE FALLEN
Anyways. My point is, I guess, that if one of these two guys was a woman TNG would have gone there without hesitation, and PIC would be all over it again now and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation where I’m desperate for even the tiniest scraps of acknowledgement of a love that has existed (and been confirmed everywhere except on screen) for literal decades.
I guess this little fact adds to my frustration. It’s not even so much me shipping things and being all over it, it’s the acknowledgment I’m after. I know perfectly well that Jean-Luc and Q would be a train wreck as an actual couple because they’re such polar opposites. I’ve never viewed them as a “happily ever after” case. I just want… idk how to say it… an official nod to their relationship? Yeah. That sounds good.
Orla Brady is a regular cast member this season so she was likely always going to be apart of the "hero" PR photos they put out, but because (as you say) the fact she was playing two characters had to be kept secret so she was photographed as Laris. That being said, I'm still betting on it being revealed that Laris is actually future Tallinn and she is Jean-Luc's watcher.
Yeah my thoughts are going into that direction as well. There’s definitely a connection, I think that one can be said for certain since Orla Brady said it as well. And there’s still that one missing scene between Jean-Luc and Laris that wasn’t on the show yet where she tells him “you’re gonna have to let go”. I know trailers are misleading but let’s assume she’s talking about his guilt for what happened to his mother - how would she know about this when only Not!Laris knew it? He could have told her of course but I’m not so sure he’s ready to talk just yet - my guy has a lot to figure out. And this not how trauma works, you don’t relive things in such a traumatic way and then you’re like “cool it’s all cured now, let’s have a chat”, you’re more like “I need to think first and maybe I’ll be ready to talk at some point”.
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