• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers "Star Trek: Picard" and "12 Monkeys" Comparisons

Started the re-watch. I'll try to do one or two of these per week, but this will be slower going than my DS9 Rewatch. Quite a difference watching 12 Monkeys the second time versus taking it all in with the first.

101. "Splinters"
They managed to sum up the entire premise of the series within a span of 47 minutes. The first 20 minutes are spent on James Cole convincing Dr. Cassandra Riley he's from the future (2043) and that in 2017, a few years from her time (2013 pre-opening credits, 2015 afterwards), a plague is going to wipe out most of the world's population. The rest of the episode is spent on a Cole's mission to kill Leland Goines in order to stop him from developing said virus. Riley points out he can't just kill someone and that there's no way of knowing if the virus isn't already in development. By the end of the episode Leland Giones does end up dying, but not before revealing he already met James Cole in 1987, a time Cole hasn't been to yet. Leland realizes Cole hasn't heard of the Army of the 12 Monkeys yet either. Leland tries to kill Cole and Riley, but Cole outsmarts him and Leland dies. But there's a catch: Cole hoped that killing Leland would undo his timeline. Except it wasn't undone. And that's the brilliance of this series: No matter what Cole tries to do; someone is always 10 steps ahead of him. When Cole gets back to 2043, Dr. Jones asks he if found out anything and he says that they're looking for the 12 Monkeys. Back in 2015, Leland's daughter (who's in an insane asylum), Jennifer Goines, is told that her father died but he left her with a lot of money, as she sketches a drawing the 12 Monkeys symbol on one of her walls.

A solid start to the series. I liked it just as much this time as I did last time. It still holds up knowing what I know now. I give it an 8.

PIC/12M Comparisons:
Earlier in the thread, I mentioned some similarities between Jack Crusher and James Cole. Here's another one. The scientists working for Leland Goines point out that Cole's biology is like a walking, talking human computer. With Jack Crusher's DNA that he inherited from Picard/Locutus, he's a walking, talking carrier of Borg technology, since he has Locutus' DNA in him. Jack Crusher isn't just "the next generation" of Picard, he's "the next generation" of Locutus, which is what the Borg Queen wanted. I'm going to have to look out for parallels between the Borg Queen and Olivia Kirschner, to see if that leads anywhere or adds up to anything.

These are the types of things you don't really start noticing until the second time around.

This is entirely by coincidence, since Terry Matalas had nothing to do with Picard Season 1, but you know how Raffi's theory that the Romulans were behind the Mars Attack was dismissed, and she was written off as crazy? It's similar to how after when Riley met Cole, people began to dismiss her and thought she was crazy. Terry must've picked up on that similarity when he started working on Picard. It's not so much there in PIC S2, but in PIC S3, we're back to Raffi as the Intelligence Agent coordinating with Worf (even though she doesn't know it at first) and looking into things that most people would think of as crazy.

These are the types of things you don't start noticing until the second time around.

Of Other Note: One more thing from "Splinters". I love when Cole scratches Railey's watch from her time and then the scratch appears on Riley's watch from his time. It's just like comparing Doc Brown's watch to Einstein's watch in Back to the Future.
 
Last edited:
I'm up to Episode 6 in my re-watch, but instead I'm going to talk about Episode 5: "The Night Room".

I found what I was looking for. To quote myself above:
I'm going to have to look out for parallels between the Borg Queen and Olivia Kirschner, to see if that leads anywhere or adds up to anything.
No, not parallels between the Borg Queen and Olivia, but parallels between Picard and Olivia! In PIC, the lingering remnants of Picard's original body were used by the Borg Queen to assimilate the Federation. Essentially wipe them out. In 12M, the virus that wipes out Humanity came from what we now know (from the end of the series) to be Olivia's remains that were all the way back in the past. Full circle.

The first season is so much better on the rewatch, it's crazy!
I agree!

Honestly! Yes! Especially once we get all the context! I watched episode 8 of the last season and put on an episode 8 of the first season and with context, my mind was blown. Because on first watch, I didn’t question it, but knowing all the context and going back to it? My jaw dropped.
I can't wait to get up to Episode 8 in the re-watch! If not today, then definitely tomorrow.

I'm not going to review the rest of the episodes. I'm not even thinking about it as I binge the first season. It's a page-turner. Stopping and reviewing after every episode kills the momentum. To rate the whole season, I'd probably say it's about an 8, though certain episodes will stand out as higher than that.
 
Last edited:
Season 1 plays differently on the first watch. A lot of it comes across as a little generic, rule by numbers procedural a to b to c with many tones you've seen hit before. It takes a while to warm up to the characters and gain the confidence of the creative team. On the second watch, you already know the characters and everything seems to have much more depth. You see how the creative team managed to do so much under the hood while still incorporating what must have been an avalanche of network and studio notes.

Season 2 is a little different. It's about 3 episodes too long (would be interesting to see a tightened up fan edit). The temporary character conflict feels a little forced and after a few episodes it's like, enough already. The red cloud anomaly feels like something very Brannon Braga-esque stretched so much it wears thin. But then you hit "Lullaby"!

Seasons 3 and 4 on the other hand have three seasons worth of content crammed into two. Here you would like an extra 3 episodes per season.

You bought the Blu-ray right? Hope you're hitting the deleted scenes after each episode.
 
Season 1 plays differently on the first watch. A lot of it comes across as a little generic, rule by numbers procedural a to b to c with many tones you've seen hit before. It takes a while to warm up to the characters and gain the confidence of the creative team. On the second watch, you already know the characters and everything seems to have much more depth. You see how the creative team managed to do so much under the hood while still incorporating what must have been an avalanche of network and studio notes.

Season 2 is a little different. It's about 3 episodes too long (would be interesting to see a tightened up fan edit). The temporary character conflict feels a little forced and after a few episodes it's like, enough already. The red cloud anomaly feels like something very Brannon Braga-esque stretched so much it wears thin. But then you hit "Lullaby"!

Seasons 3 and 4 on the other hand have three seasons worth of content crammed into two. Here you would like an extra 3 episodes per season.

You bought the Blu-ray right? Hope you're hitting the deleted scenes after each episode.
Blu-Ray. I'm watching all the deleted scenes once I get to the end of the disc in one episode.

The third and fourth seasons were my favorite, the first go-around. I expect that to be true this time as well.

I agree that the first season is a bit too I'll call it "standard time travel", but you have to start somewhere and ease people in before going all-out. All I can think of is Babylon 5, which I've finally just started watching and felt overwhelmed at first.

EDITED TO ADD: I finally found a balance that works for me. Not the balance that I originally planned, but the one I find to be the most practical. Binge 12 Monkeys on Sunday and Monday. That's my "weekend". Then one or two episodes of Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5 each night for the rest of the week.

DOUBLE-EDIT: I'm on the Deleted Scenes. I can't believe 16 minutes were cut from the first episode! They should do what was done with "The Measure of a Man" and have an Extended Cut.
 
Last edited:
DOUBLE-EDIT: I'm on the Deleted Scenes. I can't believe 16 minutes were cut from the first episode! They should do what was done with "The Measure of a Man" and have an Extended Cut.
Maybe they thought SyFy could want an extended premiere, a la CAPRICA? Interestingly enough, the Pilot was shot in Detroit, not Toronto, so maybe some of the cut scenes were due to continuity issues or not wanting to pick up some threads? If I remember correctly, there was almost a year in between shooting the pilot and the series proper.

And yeah, despite what some might say about me being a Terry Matalas cultist or what have you, I am open to criticism 😂. Still, 12M is arguably one of the top three genre series of the 2010s. And I'd be hard pressed to identify any serialized genre series that managed to stick the landing like it did.
 
I finished Season 1 last night, watched the Deleted Scenes, and also watched the Webisodes. The Webisodes were the real highlight. In the first one, a psychologist is asking Jennifer Goines about the 12 Monkeys. "Why 12?" Because there are 12 months in the year. "Why Monkeys?" Because, as Jennifer says, we evolved from monkeys. "Why the Red Forrest?" Because it represents change coming. I take it a step further and say that autumn represents the fall of what came before.

In that, I see a comparison to Picard Season 3. When red is depicted, it connects to the Borg. When Jack's eyes turn red, when backgrounds turn red, and when we see the Borg in space that looks like red, it represents on one level their anticipated Fall of the Federation. But, in reality, it will be the Fall of the Borg.

Another thing the red reminds me of, in connection to the Borg, is Voyager because Borg Space in VOY episodes always had lots of red.

What else? In the second half of the first season, the character arcs really come into focus that will shape the rest of the series. Railley, Ramse, and Jones all become fully fleshed-out three-dimensional characters. Dr. Jones in particular doesn't just remind me of Janeway anymore. She reminds me of a cross between Janeway and Annorax from "Year of Hell". And we get to see more of Cole's and Dr. Jones' pasts. My favorite episodes in the back-half were "Yesterday" (S1E8), "Shonin" (S1E11), and "Arms of Mine" (S1E13).

I feel like I'll give the entire season an 8.5. If I had to rate seasons of 12 Monkeys alongside Picard, so far, it would go:

Picard Season 3
Picard Season 1
12 Monkeys Season 1
Picard Season 2

Next weekend, it's on to binging 12M Season 2.

EDITED TO ADD: I hadn't quite finished my last re-watch of Picard Season 3 yet. This is my third time watching it as a whole and I've unintentionally spaced it out. So, after I finished 12M S1, I put on "Vox" (which is where I was). It's pretty amazing how well it flowed, going from watching 12M to PIC S3.
 
Last edited:
EDITED TO ADD: I hadn't quite finished my last re-watch of Picard Season 3 yet. This is my third time watching it as a whole and I've unintentionally spaced it out. So, after I finished 12M S1, I put on "Vox" (which is where I was). It's pretty amazing how well it flowed, going from watching 12M to PIC S3.
12M definitely has an evolved post-2005 Star Trek yet current day vibe to it. So in a way it's like a tributary flowing back into the main river.
 
Due to circumstances leading to a disruption in the Space-Time Continuum, I've come back to you from the future after having finished my re-watch of The 12 Monkeys to give you the rest of the comparisons and similarities I noticed with Picard.

... okay, actually what I really did was something else. I watched the recaps at the beginning for every episode of Season 2, Season 3, and... well, Season 4 didn't have recaps, so I went straight to the final episode, where they finally had another recap summing everything up before heading into the finale itself. And what a finale it was! I remembered more than I thought I did, and it was still just as powerful.

This doesn't change my plan to binge Season 2, Season 3, and Season 4 for the next three weekends, but something told me I should finish off the comparisons to Picard now, and just enjoy the rest of 12 Monkeys as its own thing.

But before I get into the rest of the comparison, I want to start this off with a song! If we're going to finish this, we have to finish with a good song! Just like Ramse said! It's been a great time discovering this series. Had the time of my life watching it. ;)

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Now onto those comparisons! Let's get this show on the road!

I'm putting everything in Spoiler Code. Just in case.

Jennifer is like both of Beverly's sons. Jennifer keeps having nightmares, just like Jack. But she's also a Primary and can see the Past, Present, and Future, just like Wesley.

The stories about Dr. Jones and how she's a German Doctor who turns people inside out. Vadik views the Federation and their experiments on Changelings in the same what that a lot of people in 12 Monkeys view Dr. Jones.

In a fourth season episode, titled "Legacy", Dr. Jones wonders about what they've left behind. Much like Picard wonders what he'll leave behind.

On the subject of Cole and Cassie's son during Season 3, Cole says “If there’s something wrong, he got it from me.” Just like Picard would say in PIC S3 when he found out what Jack inherited from Locutus. James Callis plays Cole's son in 12M, whereas in PIC he plays Picard's father.

In the very final episode, they realize if they're going to succeed in their mission, they need everyone. Similar to PIC Season 3 where they needed everyone from the Enterprise-D and they all came together.

When Cole and Ramse take out Cole's father's old car as they head into their final mission, Cole says, “it’s not about the age, it’s about the gas left in the tank. Everything else we can fix.” Sums up the Enterprise-D and the TNG crew to a T. Except the Enterprise-D Rebuild survives!

And, of course, Olivia wants to destroy everything. Just like the Borg Queen.

Based on my memory, my quick refresher here, and what I'm sure will be true when I finish the re-watch, I think each season of 12 Monkeys got better-and-better. It kept expanding its scope.

So I rate it, top-to-bottom:
Season 4
Season 3
Season 2
Season 1

Don't read too much into that, though, because I like and enjoyed all four of them.

And I think that's it. To quote Jennifer, “The actor doesn’t say goodbye, but good night." And at 2:43 AM, that's what I'm going to do.

But I can't finish this post without one final song. Deacon, a.k.a. Shaw wouldn't forgive me if I didn't finish with this!

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

And, then, of course here's my favorite song! It wasn't in 12 Monkeys, but I'm sharing it anyway! Brought to you from 1982, it's Fantasy by Aldo Nova!

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Peace out!
 
Last edited:
Based on my memory, my quick refresher here, and what I'm sure will be true when I finish the re-watch, I think each season of 12 Monkeys got better-and-better. It kept expanding its scope.
This goes to show just how well constructed 12M was with its arc and characters, making it highly repeatable. Even the weakest season gains on the rewatch from appreciating the characters and background on a much deeper level.

In terms of sheer overarching arc and mythology construction, I can't think of another genre show that pulled it off better. And 12M really sticks the landing, something BSG, LOST, FRINGE, GAME OF THRONES, and DEXTER (twice!) failed at. I mean, you have to jump up to THE SHIELD. BREAKING BAD, and BETTER CALL SAUL to find endings that fulfilling.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top