Spoilers "Star Trek: Picard" and "12 Monkeys" Comparisons

[Lord Garth]

I'm only at the beginning of the second season of 12 Monkeys as of this typing. I was going to cram all four seasons in between now and Wednesday when Picard Season 3 comes out on my Blu-Ray with all its Extra Features, but that's pretty much impossible. But luckily, as the song goes, tiiiimmmmeeee is on my side.... A song that shows up at the beginning of both series' second seasons! I'll be spending the week watching this series instead of three more days.

I'm putting up a Spoiler Warning in the thread title in case anyone else wants to start watching 12 Monkeys as well. As for me, I know Spoilers are part of the game.

These are the comparisons I noticed between Picard and 12 Monkeys, so far. Bear in mind this only covers the first season.

Thumbnail Description: It's about a time-traveller from 2043 going back to Present Day to stop a pandemic from wiping out Humanity. This series aired from 2015 to 2018, so they had no idea what was right around the corner!

First the characters:

Like I said before, in the General Discussion Tread, James Cole is like Jack Crusher. We're introduced to him as this hard-edged character who's lived a hard life and has a mysterious background when we first see him. Turns out he's the time-traveler and the main character.

Jose Ramse is Cole's best friend. He had a romantic relationship with a woman, Elena, they eventually broke up, and then Ramse finds out they have a five-year-old son. Elena kept the boy away from Ramse because she didn't want him constantly in danger. Just like Beverly Crusher not telling Picard about Jack Crusher and not wanting her son to be in danger.

Katarina Jones is like Kathryn Janeway, and they even look a little similar. Even though Janeway doesn't appear in Picard, she's referenced enough, so I'm counting it. Katarina not only has a science background, like Janeway, but she also invented the time-machine that James uses to go back in time. Katrina is forced to make some decisions in order to succeed in her mission of changing the timeline so the pandemic never wipes out most of Humanity. Janeway had to make some tough choices in "Scorpion" in order to fight Species 8472 and survive traveling through Borg Space. Janeway later had to make some very tough choices in "Equinox" in order to stop Ransom. Then, finally, Admiral Janeway, from the early-25th Century (roughly the same time as Picard!) goes back in time to help Captain Janeway stop the Borg in "Endgame" to prevent a terrible future from happening where Seven dies, Chakotay dies, and Tuvok is mentally unstable. She's willing to do whatever it takes to succeed. Similarly, Katarina Jones is willing to do whatever it takes to succeed in her mission of changing time and refuses to give up even as everyone around her does.

Which brings us to what's happening with time. Every time James Cole is sent back in time to change things, he finds out everything is still the same. There's a Mystery Box to figure out why things aren't changing. I have more, but I'll stop here for now. I've got the ball rolling!

People who are more familiar with 12 Monkeys than I am, since I'm still taking it all in, feel free to jump in at any point.

 

[cal888]

There's so much you could get spoiled about with the later seasons. When you finish the series, you might just want to rewatch it again knowing then what you don't know now.

I will say that you'll likely notice some Brannon Braga-esq Trek influence on season 2 (Mike Sussman from VGR and ENT was a consulting producer).

Seasons 3 and 4 were solo run by Terry Matalas, and that's also when composer Stephen Barton joined the show. Then you really get PICARD influences...

Fun point of trivia... Terry wanted Emily Hampshire (Jennifer Goines) to play the alt-timeline Borg Queen in season 2, but scheduling conflicts occured.

 

[Lord Garth]

I mentioned this in the General Discussion Thread but forgot to post it in the previous post: Theodore Deacon is played by Todd Stashwick and is the Pragmatic Asshole who's the leader of Scavengers. He allies with people who have black cloaks and white, I'm still learning their names, look like Vadic's followers.

 

[cal888]

The Primaries are like ___________.

The Red Forest is like the _______.

And now you know who the Spearhead Operations mercenaries were named after. If you really want to deep dive, the season of MACGYVER that Matalas ran also features that group. Would have been hilarious if they did a deep enough reference that that show then had to be featured on Memory Alpha .

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm up to the end of Season 2, Episode 4. Real Life got in the way. Which is why I'm glad I'm giving myself more time.

The Primaries are like ___________.

Either the Q or the Prophets.

The Red Forest is like the _______.

The Q Continuum, the Wormhole, or the Nexus. Still haven't narrowed those down.

What I have narrowed down is who Dr. Cassie Railly is like: Dr. Crusher in Picard. The connection didn't become apparent until Season 2. Railly is a doctor who learns how to kill and how to do what's necessary in a war. A stark contrast to TNG where Crusher couldn't develop "callouses" over losing patients.

Loved seeing Gale, played by Jay Karnes. Who, like his character in Picard, the FBI Agent, figures out there's more to the main characters than meets the eye.

Todd Stashwick's character, Deacon, is not only the same type of character as Shaw, but it looks like he's also on the same trajectory. He's seeming like less and less of an adversary and more of an unlikely ally born out of circumstance.

 

[Lord Garth]

I will say that you'll likely notice some Brannon Braga-esq Trek influence on season 2 (Mike Sussman from VGR and ENT was a consulting producer).

Using World War II as a battle front in the Temporal War in ENT, and as a holodeck simulation run by the Hirogen in VOY. Though it's not really battlefield of WWII in 12 Monkeys, when they go back to 1944, more like just the WWII Era as a backdrop.

The picture with Cole and Ramii 100 years in the past (2044 -> 1944) is dead-on a reference to Back to the Future, Part III when Doc and Marty have their picture taken in 1885. It's not Star Trek, but I couldn't NOT mention that!

I did some looking ahead after I finished up S2E4 and it seems like what it felt like by the end of the episode, the second season has more mini-arcs than the first season did. ENT Season 4 was full of these two-and-three-parters.

As soon as they went back to 1944, I thought, "They're throwing in more time periods to get more mileage out of the series!" You have to add more by necessity when your source material is a two-hour movie and you're trying to get multiple seasons out of the idea.

Speaking of which, I'm going to add the 1995 film to my list. I'm planning to watch it in-between Seasons 2 and 3. Then, psychologically speaking, I'll feel like I'll be over the hump, after having seen more than 50% of the episodes and the movie everything was based off of.

One more thing to add: The lighting and the set design in 12 Monkeys is very reminiscent of Picard Season 3. I already knew that Terry Matalas brought on his DP from 12 Monkeys for PIC S3, but now -- actually seeing it for myself -- it really shows.

 

[cal888]

Speaking of which, I'm going to add the 1995 film to my list. I'm planning to watch it in-between Seasons 2 and 3. Then, psychologically speaking, I'll feel like I'll be over the hump, after having seen more than 50% of the episodes and the movie everything was based off of.

I'd suggest holding off until you see the entire series first. To explain why would involve spoilers.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'd suggest holding off until you see the entire series first. To explain why would involve spoilers.

Okay.

 

[grimorie]

Ramse and Cole’s actors were the Ferengi and the Crime lord Vulcan in Picard season 3, they even have the same history. Also James Cole was one of Jack Crusher’s fake names, for a 12 Monkeys fan, I had a lot of fun spotting all the callbacks and References in Pic S3 to 12 Monkeys.

I really hope we get a Legacy show because I would love to have Barbara Sukowa (Dr Katrina Jones) in Star Trek. She is an amazing actress!

 

[Lord Garth]

It's been a busy week. I finished Season 2 Episode 9 last night.

The Red Forest is definitely the Nexus.

Cole and Ramse steal a police cruiser. Exact same thing happens in Picard Season 2 with Seven and Raffi!

I'm starting to see that Mike Sussman influence, I'm guessing. Raily and Ramse get stuck in a time loop in one episode that they figure out how to get out of. Would've fit right in next to "Cause and Effect" (TNG) or "Coda" (VOY).

When Jennifer Goines said, "You've got the touch. You've got the power!" Transformers: The Movie. The one from 1986, not the Michael Bay movies. That's Terry Matalas all the way.

I really hope we get a Legacy show because I would love to have Barbara Sukowa (Dr Katrina Jones) in Star Trek. She is an amazing actress!

She would be perfect to have in Legacy somehow some way. I'm actually surprised now that they didn't find a way to work her into Picard.

EDITED TO ADD: A couple of other observations.

Katarina has (re-)gained a daughter, who's grown up without her, while Ramse had a son that he didn't know about. Ramse's son isn't grown up, but Katarina's daughter is. So it seems like they took a little from Column A and a little from Column B in Picard. Picard has a son that he didn't know about, who's now grown up and grew up without him.

Katarina and her team constantly trying to find out how to undo the plague and how to undo everything that's happened is starting to remind me of Annorax from "Year of Hell" (VOY) and his constant obsession with trying to get time back to the way he remembers it, with his wife still alive. It has to be 100%. Anything less isn't good enough.

If the Sci-Fi Channel, a.k.a. SyFy, hadn't fallen off my radar after 2010, I would've watched 12 Monkeys during its original run for sure. Better late than never. The Sci-Fi Channel used to always have at least one show I was interested in. First it was Sliders (which I also watched previously on FOX), then it was Farscape, then Battlestar Galactica. And then the chain was broken. I had no reason to stick around after that, and the channel didn't look like it had anything else interesting. Five years later and out comes 12 Monkeys! So, it just completely slipped through the cracks. Now, thanks to Picard, not only have I rediscovered TNG and VOY, but also this whole other series that I'd never seen before.

 

[cal888]

The Sci-Fi Channel used to always have at least one show I was interested in. First it was Sliders (which I also watched previously on FOX), then it was Farscape, then Battlestar Galactica.
And then the chain was broken.

Never got intro Stargate? Yeah it's 17 (20-22 episodes each) seasons, but if you need a new franchise to try... also check out THE EXPANSE.

Great catch with Annorax / Year of Hell.

Any predictions for seasons 3/4 at this stage?

 

[Lord Garth]

Just finished S2E10.

Matt Frewer is always great! Or should I say a-a-a-always great? <-- Max Headroom reference. Huge missed opportunity not having Berlinghof Rasmussen in ENT, since he was originally from the 22nd Century.

I was sad to see Robert Gale die. And, yeah, he's named after Bob Gale, co-writer and co-producer of Back to the Future.

Cole, Ramse, and Railly went back to August 12th, 1961. Exactly 18 years before the day I was born. I got a kick out of that for personal reasons.

It was raining outside while I was watching this episode, and at the end of it when Decon was looking up at the Red Skies and there was thunder and lightning, I could also hear thunder outside! Really added to the scene. Unintentionally, but still!

Any predictions for seasons 3/4 at this stage?

They're going to do more with Deacon. He's been underused up to this point, but I feel like that's going to change. They lingered on that shot with him at the end of S2E10 quite a bit. That screams foreshadowing to me.

Cole will mend fences with Ramse and Railly, but that's an easy one. Of course they will.

Ramse won't find his son until next season. It won't be this season. There's too much going on, and it won't be that easy.

Cole will run into Gale in later episodes. It's strongly implied Cole will go back to other points between 1944 and 1961 and they'll work together.

Katarina's going to face more resistance within her ranks, and Cole will be the only one she can trust, for a while. That's my guess. I could be totally wrong.

Hopefully I can finish Season 2 of 12 Monkeys tonight. I bought PIC Season 3 on Blu-Ray today, and a good thing I did because there was only one copy of it left at the Wal-Mart I picked it up at, but I'm holding off on putting it on.

also check out THE EXPANSE.

That's a series I plan on checking out soon-ish. Enough people whose opinions I trust have talked it up over the years. Plus my godsister and her husband recommended the show to me. They're also huge BSG fans. From what I can tell, The Expanse is a super-realistic version of what a space-fairing society might be like in the future.

Speaking of BSG... Michael Hogan. I thought Dr. Eckland would last longer than he did. I liked seeing Katarina's reactions to this "husband" from an alternate reality. I felt just as weirded out as she did. But Michael Hogan nailed it in the role!

-----

CONSILIDATING POSTS BY ADDING WHAT WAS THE NEXT ONE HERE.

I'm on S2E12. Short post. (Or maybe not so short?)

1. In the previous episode: Ramse, Railly, and Goines want to take the fight to Titan, where The Whitness is. What a happy coincidence for Terry Matalas when it came time for Picard that Riker had previously been in command of the Titan.

2. I thought about this when they went back to 1944 and when they briefly went to 1961, but now this is bugging me too much to not mention. Cole's hair. I have longer-than-normal-lengh hair for a guy myself. I grew my hair out when I was 16 and never looked back. But... Cole's in 1957! He's spending multiple years in the 1950s! How has no one commented on his long hair? And wouldn't he have cut it? At least go for the greaser look. He'd only have to cut it a little. But the way he normally has it? No way would that fly in the real 1957. Sorry. I say this as someone with long hair. He needed to get a haircut if he was going to be living in that time for a while.

At least when they were in 1944, they had Gale make a quip about Cole's beard and how GI's must've been cutting back on razors. I guess that's all they thought they had to do to address the elephant in the room.

They're going to do more with Deacon. He's been underused up to this point, but I feel like that's going to change. They lingered on that shot with him at the end of S2E10 quite a bit. That screams foreshadowing to me.

Wow! Only one episode later and I was right!

Deacon's just like Shaw. He's on your side, but only if it benefits him. With Todd Stashwick's performance here, I can see why Terry Matalas wanted to give the actor a more prominent role in Picard Season 3. Shaw is basically Deacon pointing out every flaw with Picard, Riker, and the Enterprise-D and E's adventures. At first, I thought they'd just written him to be the Captain Styles or Captain Estaban of PIC S3. But there was a lot more going into him than just that. I could tell that even as the season continued on, but now I know for sure.

He's also all about the Doom & Gloom, which would later fit like a glove in PIC Season 3 when he mentioned how the real Borg were still out there and couldn't let go of how Picard used to be Locutus. While it's true they covered this ground with Sisko on DS9, I appreciated Shaw talking about it too, in a drunken stupor, because it shows just how many people's lives Wolf 359 really effected.

 

[Lord Garth]

The Primaries are like ___________.

The Watchers!

It just hit me when The Primary there told Cole his mission wasn't over yet and what he needed to do, in S2E13.

Terry Matalas must've been wondering who the Star Trek equivalent would be in the 2020s... and that brought him to "Assignment: Earth" (TOS) with Gary Seven watching over Earth and whoever he reported to.

Can't believe it took me this long to figure it out.

EDITED TO ADD: Finished Season 2. I was wrong. It wasn't more episodic or a mix of two-and-three parters like ENT Season 4. It was more like Back to the Future, Part II where they kept jumping between different time periods. In BTTF2, it was: 1985, 2015, 1985A, and 1955. In 12 Monkeys, we saw (and jumped back-and-forth between): 1944, 1957, 1961, 1975, 2016, and 2044. Then 2163 at the end! Listing them chronologically to keep it neater. Lots of variety. Probably also due to an expanded budget which allowed them to show off more.

There were lots of twists and turns in S2. Looking forward to seeing what's in store for Season 3!

DOUBLE-EDIT TO ADD: I'll have to put off Season 3 until the end of the week. Too many things to do in Real Life.

 

[cal888]

There were lots of twists and turns in S2. Looking forward to seeing what's in store for Season 3!

Season 3 is where Terry Matalas takes over the the sole showrunner. You only have two arcs, with one bridging quasi-standalone episode that's pretty hilarious.

Also some shifts in behind the scenes people that will bring even closer connections to PICARD.

 

[Lord Garth]

I couldn't help myself. I watched a YouTube Reaction to the 1996 version of The 12 Monkeys and the movie looks like shit. I couldn't even sit through the reaction from one of my favorite YouTube Reactors. Never mind sitting down and watching two hours of the actual movie itself. Forget it.

It's like looking at the '70s version of Battlestar Galactica after you've watched the '00s version. I'm sticking with the TV series for 12 Monkeys. The TV series does so much more justice to the concept.

Had to get that out of my system, or I would've kept wondering.

Thank God this isn't a problem with Star Trek. Despite all being products of their times, and despite having preferences of my own, I can still sit through the older Trek series. Unless it's a really bad episode, but outright truly bad episodes of Star Trek are generally the exception. Contrary to what this board would have you believe.

Can't wait to see how much 12 Monkeys Seasons 3-4 are like Picard Seasons 2-3, with Terry Matalas being the sole Showrunner!

I watched the episode commentary track for "The Next Generation" (PIC), and Todd Stashwick's performance as Shaw already hits differently, just from what I've seen from him in The 12 Monkeys' first two seasons.

 

[cal888]

It's like looking at the '70s version of Battlestar Galactica after you've watched the '00s version. I'm sticking with the TV series for 12 Monkeys. The TV series does so much more justice to the concept.

Yeah the film is a highly stylized satire. More for Terry Gilliam fans than general genre fans. I'm really glad I caught on streaming and didn't "blind buy" it on disc.

And Terry's original idea was SPLINTER, which was just adapted with 12 Monkeys film elements to sell the series.

I watched the episode commentary track for "The Next Generation" (PIC), and Todd Stashwick's performance as Shaw already hits differently, just from what I've seen from him in The 12 Monkeys' first two seasons.

I already "knew" the character, so maybe I was way too willing to give him a pass in dissing Picard than Admiral Sheer Fucking Hubris...

 

[grimorie]

I watched the episode commentary track for "The Next Generation" (PIC), and Todd Stashwick's performance as Shaw already hits differently, just from what I've seen from him in The 12 Monkeys' first two seasons.

Honestly, this is why I have more leeway and goodwill for Shaw and, also Terry Matalas as a showrunner -- is Picard S3 perfect, of course not but I enjoy Matalas's writing so much and because of 12 Monkeys, there's so many easter eggs and gifts for 12 Monkeys fans who watched Picard S3.

 

[Lord Garth]

After the series is over, I'll go back to the movie after all. Why? Because I've been here almost 25 years. I know this board. People here will say Terry Matalas can't come with anything new. Especially when talking about Legacy. I think Terry and his team created the vast majority of what is The 12 Monkeys and I'm going to demonstrably prove it, if a situation calls for it.

 

[Lord Garth]

That unintentional break went longer than I thought it would, but I'm back at it. Just finished watching the second episode of the third season and am putting on the next one after this post.

The 12 Monkeys is in full swing now. It's had a lot its characters split up in different time-frames with stories unfolding on multiple fronts until, I assume, everything ties back together.

If this is Terry Matalas going all-out, then I think they can do a lot with Legacy. With so much to follow up on from TNG, DS9, or VOY that they can cherry-pick from, and the uncharted territory in the 25th Century, I think they can cover a lot of ground unfolding on multiple fronts like The Final Chapter of DS9, except it would be unfolding throughout Legacy once it would get everything it wants going, instead only having it all unfold at the same time at the very end, like what DS9 did. I like the jumping back-and-forth, and so much happening at the same time. You can resolve one storyline, but still have the others. Nothing gets dragged out, and it still feels like part of a continuing storyline instead of episodic.

 

[grimorie]

Yesss this is why I give so much leeway to Matalas because of what he achieved here in 12 Monkeys! Also the relationship between characters is amazing, IMO.