Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x10 - "The Last Generation"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Commander Richard, Apr 19, 2023.



  1. 10 - Excellent!

  2. 9

  3. 8

  4. 7

  5. 6

  6. 5

  7. 4

  8. 3

  9. 2

  10. 1 - Terrible!

  1. Macintosh

    Macintosh Captain Captain

    Dec 22, 2022
    Yes, but if nobody knows what you're talking about before you start abbreviating all over the place using acronyms of your own invention then it's a little bit counter-productive isn't it :brickwall:

    Also – copy-paste is a thing.

    This might be what you mean but it's not what you say, and the context isn't clear enough to deduce it. I can't tell if you're disagreeing with me, or agreeing with me, or providing some form of parallel commentary.

    Elsewhere on the very page you cite for "CST driver coil" it talks about "high impulse operations" above 0.75c. Also – you're going to get relativistic effects with any movement. That's how GPS works. At a limit of 0.25c you're still going to see about 3% time dilation.

    It's also clear that they mean that prolonged high relativistic speeds will cause ship time becomes desynchronised with what we might call "Federation standard time", rather than the computers becoming desynchronised with each other. When we see the Enterprise having to recalibrate its onboard clocks – in "Cause and Effect" or "Clues", for example – it seems to be no more complex than doing a manual refresh of a computer clock against an internet time server today. The issue comes in that if you are continually recalibrating then timekeeping aboard the ship is going to become very strange indeed over time, and that's going to cause crew issues with things like sleep cycles etc.

    I... literally did this calculation already? And demonstrated using on-screen evidence what accelerations starships are capable of? :shrug:

    How fast a modern jet fighter can accelerate to mach 1 isn't really relevant since it's hugely slower. A starship accelerating to mach 1 at the same acceleration we see the refit Enterprise use in TMP (which it can't technically do if they're not in an atmosphere, but let's run with it for now using the standard speed of sound) would take no more than 0.012 seconds. A starship accelerating to full impulse at the same acceleration as fighter jets are capable of with catapult assist from an aircraft carrier is going to take over three weeks. It's a complete mismatch of scales. Compared to what we know of starships, fighter jets are slow and lumbering.
    Richard S. Claus likes this.
  2. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Oct 24, 2012
    I did state what "CST (Compact Space-Time) Driver Coil" was at the beginning of the post before I continued with the abbreviations. Sorry if you have a hard time keeping up. It's usually standard acronym protocol to list the full abbreviation at the beginning of the statement before you continue on using the abbreviated acronym for the rest of the post.

    It's a analogy of how long it takes to accelerate to a standard measuring point.
    You know how automobiles acceleration is usually measured from 0-60 mph
    Or how Fighter Jets acceleration is usually measured from 0 to Mach 1.0

    I'm using 0 to 0.25c as a common measuring point for StarShip STL acceleration.

    But there are good reason why you don't go past 0.25c, the smaller relativistic effects are a factor that the ship can easily handle (computer clock adjustment wise), the faster you go past 0.25c, you cause more clock syncing issues which plays havoc with other systems.

    If it was that easy, StarFleet wouldn't have imposed a speed limit of 0.25c on engines that can easily go much higher and faster past that point.

    That's great and all, but I'm just stating what StarShips should be able to do easily.

    Again, I'm not talking about StarShips hitting Mach 1 or using Fighter Jet Acceleration.

    The entire acceleration to Mach 1 was just a comparative analogy for ease of understanding for normal people to get a reference point about (how long/how much time it takes) for each vessel/vehicle would take to accelerate to their common measuring speeds as a "reference point" as to how fast they accelerate.

    Similar to how I'm stating 0-60 mph is a common acceleration reference point for cars.
    That 0 - 0.25c should also be a common acceleration reference point for a StarShip at STL speeds.

    That's all I'm saying, nothing more, nothing less.

    You don't have to try to infer anything more complicated than that or trying to mix & match scales.
    There was none of that happening.

    I'm sorry if you misunderstood, but that's not what I was talking about.
    Last edited: May 9, 2023
  3. Scrooge Magoo

    Scrooge Magoo Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Dec 30, 2013
    Serveaux-Shatterfrying positrons [TECH]
    Not even close to it.
  4. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Feb 10, 2013
    Configuring the Ontarian Manifold
    Do we need spoiler tags for a 30+ year old book that probably everyone on this board has read?...
    Pubert and Macintosh like this.
  5. Frostscape One

    Frostscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

    Mar 2, 2017
    Farscape One
    My guess is the content of those spoiler tags is so large that it helps keep an already large post from being a Stephen King book.
    saladdays, Magistos and jackoverfull like this.
  6. saladdays

    saladdays Captain Captain

    Jun 29, 2016
    I think I need a tl;dr version of the last page of this thread.
    Yule Cat likes this.
  7. SantaEddie74

    SantaEddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 25, 2001
    At the North Pole with cooleddie74
    "Derp. Owned."

    Macintosh and saladdays like this.
  8. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

    Feb 4, 2002
    The Old Mixer, Somewhere in Connecticut
  9. Campe

    Campe Vice Admiral Admiral

    Apr 27, 2001
    Its all literally just the speed of the plot. Interesting how starships and turbolifts actually travel at the same speed.
  10. Pubert

    Pubert Vice Admiral Admiral

    Dec 13, 2014
    Yup. Not sure why people are so upset how the D performed. In TNG it made fast turns all the time. Even in the first episode when it was fleeing Q it made really fast turns.
    Last edited: May 10, 2023
  11. Richard S. Claus

    Richard S. Claus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Mar 10, 2021
    Richard S. Ta
    Wow. That's really something.
  12. El Maestro

    El Maestro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Sep 25, 2001
    The whole criticism is silly and just people looking for things to support their thesis that the show/season/whatever was bad. Imagine looking to a property like Star Trek for strict adherence to the laws of physics and thermodynamic verisimilitude!
    Ovation, Yule Cat, SJGardner and 2 others like this.
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    Classic Space
    My criticism is twofold: one, it looks like Star Wars and two this VFX is completely at odds with past criticism of newer Trek over reliance on "pew-pew." It smacks of disingenuous arguments now.

    But, it's not that it's unbelievable; it's that it looks like Star Wars, specifically Return of the Jedi.
  14. El Maestro

    El Maestro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Sep 25, 2001
    So what if it looks like Star Wars? TV/movies are visual media and things are meant to look engaging and exciting. Star Wars did not invent nor does it hold a monopoly on "we need to fly this ship into the center of the big giant threat to blow it up or whatever," nor is such a plot device uncommon in the genre. Even TMP was this, just in much slower motion.

    Yes, there was "pew pew" in the big action climax. The sequence was exactly 24 seconds long, so I would hardly call that over reliance. Let's say there's an even 60 seconds of pew-pew with the E-D to allow for Bev's strafing run of the exterior. Still not over reliance. I just rewatched the sequence to time it and whilst doing so I noticed that the ship's movements are actually not that crazy or fast paced. The camera moves quite kinetically and much more quickly than the ship to create the feeling of much faster and more sudden motion, often moving in contrary directions to the ship. If you try to ignore that and just focus on the E-D she is actually not doing anything that crazy. The Kelvin movies are FULL of pew pew and that's fine too because they are cool and interesting to watch and 2/3 of them are good movies!
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    Classic Space
    One, it's distracting. I literally shut it off and rewatched the DEATH STAR II battle.

    Two, it just makes me shake my head that this version "pew-pew" is acceptable. I thought fans liked TNG for thoughtful SF.
  16. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Oct 24, 2012
    Fans can enjoy thoughtful SF & "Pew-Pew" Action Combat.

    There's no reason a fan of one style can't enjoy the other.
    Yule Cat, saladdays and El Maestro like this.
  17. El Maestro

    El Maestro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Sep 25, 2001
    Trek fans sure seem to get distracted by a lot of things...

    Thoughtful SF and pew pew are not mutually exclusive. The entire franchise is replete with pew pew. Hell, one of the most beloved series in the franchise dedicates two thirds of its run to an entire intragalactic war, containing copious pew.
    Yule Cat, saladdays and jackoverfull like this.
  18. El Maestro

    El Maestro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Sep 25, 2001
    Especially considering it was 24 seconds long!
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    Classic Space
    Of course not, but that's not the tone of discussions I've seen since 2009. So it's offputting to see "pew-pew" described as a high point.
    Yes, I get distracted by uniforms, pronunciation of certain words, and poor counseling techniques (occupational hazard). I don't believe this should come as a surprise.

    Two, see my response above about it, and why this bothers me. S3 didn't do anything particularly different from Season 1 except it had the Galaxy class taking on the gigantic fleet, rather than the La Sirena. It smacks of favoritism. It stands out to me, and is ultimately just plain frustrating.

    And, yes, I was thinking of Lando flying the Millenium Falco through parts of the sequence. I guess Matalas wanted to celebrate ROTJ's 40th anniversary too.
    This doesn't make it less distracting.
  20. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Oct 24, 2012
    I know, the Enterprise-D wasn't doing anything crazy in the grand scheme of things, it's movements were like a light Cessna flying through rings in Pilot-Wings at relatively slow speeds. But that level of manueverability has been shown for larger StarFleet ships in the past. That isn't all that crazy compared to what real fighter jets or high performance sports cars can do.

    Even a basic "Fish-Tail turn" isn't all that uncommon with average cars, hell I can do that with my Mazda 6 if I really wanted to. So seeing a Nebula class pull that at Wolf-359 means that pilot for that ship, at that time was more skilled then your average pilot in terms of manuevering finesse. That's all. The StarFleet Impulse Engines & RCS units on StarFleet ships are on different levels than what most other alien species seem to put into their ships.

    But that's probably StarFleet thinking based on NASA / USAF heritage of valuing manueverability and flexibility over raw efficiency. Otherwise they would've stuck with the Vulcan Coleopteric Warp Ring and just only cared about Straight-line warp Energy Consumption Efficiency over Twin Warp Nacelles that offered more manueverability at the expense of Energy Consumption Efficiency at Warp speeds.

    It's a doctrinal issue.

    If you actually watched some Gundam/Macross shows, they have battles that span most of an entire episode that can last over several episodes, all focused on the detail & nitty gritty of combat.

    I'm all down for that, but not everybody here seems to care about the details of how a real battle would work or how it would flow. Especially Space Combat.

    The problem itself isn't the "pew-pew" action. It's how it's handled.
    Details make all the difference.

    Has Star Trek ever portrayed a competent counselor in any of it's incarnation IYO as a professional counselor?
    Or has every incarnation shown been incompetent? From Troi, to Ezri Dax, to Hugh Culber, to the Doctor Migleemo?

    The Galaxy-class didn't fight the gigantic fleet, it went after the Borg Cube to stop the source of the problem.

    It was the Titan that went up against the gigantic fleet with it's cloaking device advantage.

    A far more complicated route compared to what RotJ did.

    I guess you get easily distracted by pew-pew action bits interuppting the talking head scenes easily?
    Last edited: May 10, 2023