Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x07 - "Dominion"

[Agony_Boothb]

Yeah. It's a little muddled because it was released during DS9's seventh season, but the context seems to place it afterwards, with the war in the past tense.

There's no stardate so it's still open for some debate. I used to think it was mid-season 7 due to the release date and Worf still being posted to DS9, but now I think it's more likely to be afterwards.

There is a line in Penumbra (I think) that the Son'a are Dominion allies, which makes sense because in the film they produce Ketracel White for the Jem'Hadar. So if Insurrection is after the war it makes more sense that the Federation would be trying to make peace with them, rather than dealing with an active Dominion ally.

My personal head canon is that it's set during the events of What You Leave Behind - between the Dominion fleet surrendering and the signing of the armistice on Deep Space Nine. I guess Winn and Dukat were in those caves for weeks.

Insurrection isn't set after the war. The War is spoken of multiple times throughout the film in the present tense. Memory Alpha speculates the events of Insurrection takes place between 'It's only a paper moon' and 'Field of Fire'. Also the Federation were not trying to make peace with the Son'a. It's made very clear in the conversation between Admiral Dougherty and Picard that the Son'a were considered outlaws and that they were just using the Son'a for the technology they had that could mine the rings of the Ba'ku planet. The Son'a were only co-operating because the planet was in Federation territory.

Although I think you're right about Winn and Dukat in the Fire caves. They spent a ridiculous amount of time down there.

 

[Jaimito]

Gets better every episode

Spiner is like Gollum/Smeagle.
Tuvok and the Voyager theme.
Sec 31 bioweapon experiments

This series ties up TOS, TNG, Voyager, and DS9 all in one.

 

[jaime]

The timeline is certainly interesting.
If those 10 changelings were the original test subjects for the virus (as opposed to tissue samples from Odo himself), that would mean that they were captured in or before season 4 of DS9.
Odo was infected during his stay on Earth and passed it on when being judged by the Great Link.

Mai the question is, when and how was S31 able to get hold of 10 changelings more or less at once when they didn’t even officially know they were in the process of infiltrating Earth?

There were only a total of 4 changelings on Earth back then.
Capturing 10 is impressive.

It’s interesting and possible to read it as *one* changeling split into ten. Or could even still be a part of Odo. For all we know, changelings are like starfish.

 

[1001001]

Meh.

Vadic is completely uninteresting as a villain. That thing she reports to (closed captioning calls it "Face")...?? Okay I guess.

So is Jack a Pah Wraith or something?

I don't know. I hope they stick the landing, but IMHO Picard is 0-2.

A Generous "7".

 

[Pubert]

An OK episode. I rated the others higher. It seems they are stretching this out a bit long. The main thing I did not like is that Picard and Beverly were going to outright murder Vadic after hearing that she was tortured and experimented on. Never would have happened in the tv show or even movies. Totally out of character for both of them.

 

[Quantum21]

The Founders always had a point, to some extent. The Federation probed their territory despite being very clearly warned off, gave the Romulans the location of the Founder homeworld, which they subsequently attempted to obliterate with help from the Cardassians.

We know they were developing the virus pretty much immediately, introduced it before the war even began and then withheld the cure.

There is no doubt the Feds dropped the ball on this one, HOWEVER if the Founders hadn't already been hell bent on genocide or persecution of solids and reacted as they did, there could have been a negotiated peace on their respective sides of the Wormhole.

 

[ToddCam]

The discussion of watching something you hate and why anyone would do so from a couple of pages back reminds me of how I have this project where I am trying to catalogue all media in some way, and I subjected myself to the three part That's So Raven/The Suite Life of Zack and Cody/Hannah Montana crossover.

 

[Quantum21]

Meh.

Vadic is completely uninteresting as a villain. That thing she reports to (closed captioning calls it "Face")...?? Okay I guess.

So is Jack a Pah Wraith or something?

I don't know. I hope they stick the landing, but IMHO Picard is 0-2.

A Generous "7".

Interesting, because for me it's the first time I had any interest in Vadic.

An OK episode. I rated the others higher. It seems they are stretching this out a bit long. The main thing I did not like is that Picard and Beverly were going to outright murder Vadic after hearing that she was tortured and experimented on. Never would have happened in the tv show or even movies. Totally out of character for both of them.

I disagree, it would have been totally logical to kill Vadic, save the crew, and recapture the ship. All things a captain/Admiral and doctor would do.

They did in fact have these ethical conversations before in TNG ("I, Borg" for one) about indirect, mass killing. They made the choice to do it.

 

[jaime]

An OK episode. I rated the others higher. It seems they are stretching this out a bit long. The main thing I did not like is that Picard and Beverly were going to outright murder Vadic after hearing that she was tortured and experimented on. Never would have happened in the tv show or even movies. Totally out of character for both of them.

They make a point of discussing how out of character it is, and it’s a recurring theme how parenthood changes you in the season. If they had just shrugged and shot… it would be bad. But the discussion, and the fact we do not *know* they are going to execute her (could just be more good cop bad cop, but frankly I think Beverly is at breaking point — and people have already died at Vadics hand and order.) make it acceptable in context.

 

[Citiprime]

Meh.

Vadic is completely uninteresting as a villain. That thing she reports to (closed captioning calls it "Face")...?? Okay I guess.

So is Jack a Pah Wraith or something?

I don't know. I hope they stick the landing, but IMHO Picard is 0-2.

A Generous "7".

I think she's channeling her father's performance from The Undiscovered Country.

Someone who genuinely believes that they have reasons to be doing what they're doing, but revels in tormenting those that she feels are threats to her interests.

 

[Pubert]

They make a point of discussing how out of character it is, and it’s a recurring theme how parenthood changes you in the season. If they had just shrugged and shot… it would be bad. But the discussion, and the fact we do not *know* they are going to execute her (could just be more good cop bad cop, but frankly I think Beverly is at breaking point — and people have already died at Vadics hand and order.) make it acceptable in context.

Maybe they weren't going to go through with it but it didn't feel right. If it was section 31 that did the torture than starfleet is responsible for all of this.

 

[jaime]

Maybe they weren't going to go through with it but it didn't feel right. If it was section 31 that did the torture than starfleet is responsible for all of this.

31 was explicitly not Starfleet though, it’s from section 31 of the federation charter. Which is what’s at the heart of all this really. At least Matalas remembered 31 are the villains. (Though whether that’s their lock up on daystrom is a good question)

 

[Citiprime]

31 was explicitly not Starfleet though, it’s from section 31 of the federation charter. Which is what’s at the heart of all this really. At least Matalas remembered 31 are the villains. (Though whether that’s their lock up on daystrom is a good question)

That distinction between Section 31 and Starfleet is really only on paper and arguably only exists to give the Federation and Starfleet plausible deniability.

It's made clear in DS9 that the top brass of Starfleet is in some cases aware of Section 31 and looks the other way. Admiral Ross conspired with them, and both Sisko and Julian ran into interference from Starfleet Command when they attempted to pursue any attempt to out and stop the organization.

 

[Tomalak]

There is no doubt the Feds dropped the ball on this one, HOWEVER if the Founders hadn't already been hell bent on genocide or persecution of solids and reacted as they did, there could have been a negotiated peace on their respective sides of the Wormhole.

Oh absolutely, their paranoia and fear of persecution lead to the Founders building the whole Dominion to keep people away from them. They feared anything they could not control.

When faced with a Federation driven by insatiable curiosity that couldn't take no for an answer, it's no wonder they viewed the Alpha Quadrant powers as an existential threat. And they had good reason to believe that given subsequent events.

 

[Pubert]

That distinction between Section 31 and Starfleet is really only on paper and arguably only exists to give the Federation and Starfleet plausible deniability.































It's made clear in DS9 that the top brass of Starfleet is in some cases aware of Section 31 and looks the other way. Admiral Ross conspired with them, and both Sisko and Julian ran into interference from Starfleet Command when they attempted to pursue any attempt to out and stop the organization.

Right. It's starfleet's fault.

 

[fireproof78]

Vadic remains my main interest this season.

 

[Annorax849]

I can only think of 4… the imposter Odo killed on the Defiant, the Martok spy, the infant changeling and the one from the crashed ship the Jem’Hadar sacrificed themselves over at the end.

Right, I forgot Martok and the child

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

the experiments made her able to mimic solids to a much deeper level but she’s in perpetual pain as a consequence.

Yes but is she only able to mimic humans is what I am saying. She seems locked into either goo or human form.

 

[jaime]

That distinction between Section 31 and Starfleet is really only on paper and arguably only exists to give the Federation and Starfleet plausible deniability.

It's made clear in DS9 that the top brass of Starfleet is in some cases aware of Section 31 and looks the other way. Admiral Ross conspired with them, and both Sisko and Julian ran into interference from Starfleet Command when they attempted to pursue any attempt to out and stop the organization.

I’ve always read that as showing how powerful 31 is, rather than a sign of co-operation from Starfleet itself. Though personally, I have never been a fan of 31, or the Pandora’s box it opened.

 

[David cgc]

Insurrection isn't set after the war. The War is spoken of multiple times throughout the film in the present tense. Memory Alpha speculates the events of Insurrection takes place between 'It's only a paper moon' and 'Field of Fire'.

It was written to take place between season six and seven of DS9 (if you look for it, you can see them try to hide a trim when Picard first sees Worf and they have to move out of their dialog early because Picard immediately congratulates him on his marriage as-shot). MA puts it where it does because there's a string of three episodes where Worf isn't around, but there's not really any one perfect place to drop the movie.

That distinction between Section 31 and Starfleet is really only on paper and arguably only exists to give the Federation and Starfleet plausible deniability.

It's made clear in DS9 that the top brass of Starfleet is in some cases aware of Section 31 and looks the other way. Admiral Ross conspired with them, and both Sisko and Julian ran into interference from Starfleet Command when they attempted to pursue any attempt to out and stop the organization.

Does 31 take orders from anyone? Can the Starfleet CinC give them an order? Can the Federation President direct their actions? Putting aside DSC and STID for now, in DS9, Section 31 seemed to be pretty much independent. They claimed to be acting with some kind of civil authority, but how could they be? As for Admiral Ross working with them and Starfleet Command covering for them, I'm sure, say, the mafia has had influence over military and government figures, and could coerce people into helping their schemes or discouraging investigations, but that doesn't mean that the distinction between the mob the U.S. military is "only on paper" and exists to give America plausible deniability about the activities of organized crime.

In DS9, 31 was depicted as a gang of ex-Starfleet people. Well-connected and well-supplied, but a gang nevertheless, independent of the larger social order.