Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x03 - "Seventeen Seconds"

[Tosk]

I'm not kidding when I say I thought it died because of Inertial Damper failure (which I believe Dax said happened.)

Sure, anything's possible. Although the Jem'Hadar were killed but not turned into jam (Jam'Hadar!) so it's hard to imagine that killing a Changeling, and it didn't die until well over ten hours after the crash. That's not to say it didn't happen that way, just presenting the facts we have from the episode.

it is pretty frustrating for me to get pounded by those questions, or nitpicks, on Twitter. - Terry Matalas

If I were him, I'd be glad it's nitpicky stuff. Considering the show has majorly sucked ass during a period where his name was on it, he should be grateful he's being treated by many like some kind of Trek savior. Also, I personally don't view "Why doesn't the age/timeline seem to fit?" as nitpicky. That's a legit question.

 

[TREKISODES]

Though I loved the episode, I know that once I do a re-watch, I’ll probably stumble over (a lot of) things that don’t make sense. But it’s was just so great to see Picard and Crusher, learning more about their relationship after Nemesis. Riker in command, his vulnerability as a man greatly affected by the loss of his own son. And Worf – one of my favorite characters in the franchise – it was such a blast to see him again!

 

[Commander Troi]

I liked this ep and gave it a 9.

Dorn was *amazing*. Worf and Raffi are a great pairing. I gave a little "I was right!" when they revealed a faction of Changelings. Nice to see some follow up and fall out from the Dominion War.

No, Bev's reasoning wasn't that great. Sadly, humans make decisions like this all the time. Both Riker and Worf commented on being human and working on oneself, so I'd say that's a Theme. So while I disagree with her choice, I see that it made sense to Beverly at the time. And, as someone else commented on this thread, time passes and there never seems to be a "right time" and... yeah. Stewart and McFadden did a beautiful job of the scene: very honest and (here's that word again) human.

BTW @MrPicard, I don't think they're trying to write Picard/Crusher as a Great Romance. I think the "five times" comment was meant to show how impossible their relationship was and is.

Bev assumes they're after Jack to get to Picard, but I'm not convinced of that. I think something else - perhaps something about Jack that Beverly hasn't revealed yet - is going on there.

Seven and Jack worked well together too. I honestly thought for a moment that might kill Jack to add to Picard's guilt and confused emotions.

Using portals to mess with the Titan was very well done.

I'm very curious about Jack's vision and what it means and why he even had one in the first place. Having been an avid viewer of 12 Monkeys, I know Matalas likes to use both misdirection and visions. I don't know if this will be quite as wheels-within-wheels as 12M, but I'm certain there's more going on than we've seen so far.

My assumption is Lore is 'stolen' and Moriarty is consulted because he was specifically created with the capability of defeating Data.

That makes the most sense of the theories I've seen so far, but it will be interesting to see what actually happens. Plus, WHY? What does Lore bring to the table that a group of shapeshifters need?

About Vadic... I have this weird feeling she's tied to the Maquis. I just looked on Memory Alpha and Eddington had a wife. Could Vadic be his daughter?

 

[Anduinel]

There's a new interview about this episode with Terry Matalas that basically shows in perfect clarity why you leave fan fic to fan fic writers and shippers - they do a better job and their ideas make more sense.



So what he's basically saying is "I wrote this gigantic shipper fan fic and I am very well aware of the fact that of it doesn't make any sense but it's great television drama, so please ignore the glaring plot holes and how godawful a female character comes across for the sake of the story and also please stop reminding me of the fact that my idea makes no sense, at least not the way it was executed". Got it.

Yeeeeeah. Like, I get it - he's got a situation he wants to put these characters in, and he thinks the ultimate payoff is going to be worth the fact that actually getting some of those characters in the spots he wants comes across as bit forced, to the point that the narrative (and, apparently, the show runner) has to keep asking the audience not to think about it too much. But if you know you've decided to take that route, folks pointing the shortfalls out isn't necessarily "nitpicking", it means that they've noticed the rough spots and don't think the payoff outweighs them as of yet. I'm just hoping that this season draws a line under Trek creatives feeling they need to do fix-it 'fic (affectionate) for Nemesis; I prefer the feeling that the stories are forward-facing.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Worf and Raffi were the absolute highlight of the episode. Give me a spin off of these two flying around the quadrant solving mysteries and investigating stuff. I think the next attack is going to be on Frontier day and the target will be the Enterprise F, the fleet participating in the Frontier Day show and possibly spacedock as well.

The scene between Beverly and Picard was probably the best acting the franchise has seen. I don't agree with Beverly's decision but I understand why she made it. I don't think the audience is supposed to think she was right. Trauma and loss can make people make bad decisions.

The Changelings being involved in the conspiracy is interesting. They clearly aren't the ones behind the conspiracy but merely agents of whoever is behind it just as Vadic is. I still think Vadic is ex-maquis or from a species that was harmed in some way because the Federation and Starfleet refused to budge due to prime directive considerations. Someone is pulling the strings and uniting the federations enemies, Sinister 6 style.

 

[Farscape One]

There are too many pages to look at, so forgive me if anyone has mentioned this already.

I love the Changelings being here, and it makes sense. (Really loved the callback to Odo.)

I think the ultimate endgame of these Changelings is this... find a way to use a chroniton beam to kill the Prophets because they figured out a way to bring those 2,800 Jem'Hadar ships from whatever limbo the Prophets put them in. This way, they have a giant fleet completely loyal to them thinking the war is still on, and can probably quickly do a LOT of damage to the Federation.

The Federation certainly has an advantage in tech upgrades for 25 years, but numbers really do nake a difference. (Which is exactly why the Wraith were able to defeat the Ancients in STARGATE ATLANTIS... technological superiority still couldn't beat overwhelmingly large forces.)

 

[Nikto]

What are the chances the Picard/Riker fallout is just a ploy to out the spy?

 

[SiorX]

Thought the episode overall was average but love the idea of changelings as bad guys. Actual bad guys with a real reason to do what they are doing.
Beverlys reasons to "protect" Jack are bullshit because she then puts him in loads of danger but I do like Jack.

I guess the implication is that a life of frontier adventure is one thing - and that's an acceptable risk to Beverly - but known to be Picard's son would, for some reason, be an order of magnitude more dangerous again.

I don't buy it based on what we saw in TNG, but we do keep being told how much has changed since then. All three of the attempts on his life Beverly mentions are specifically related to Romulan politics, so maybe post-Nemesis something happened that made Picard the galaxy's number one assassination target or something.

Edit - sorry, accidental draft post misfire that first time

 

[MrPicard]

BTW @MrPicard, I don't think they're trying to write Picard/Crusher as a Great Romance. I think the "five times" comment was meant to show how impossible their relationship was and is.

If Matalas' intention was to show how utterly toxic and filled with gaslighting the whole Picard/Crusher thing is and has always been and how they just don't fit together at all then yes, he succeeded. I would agree 100% there.

However, in all of the interviews with him I've read and seen he seems to seriously think he's doing a good thing for the shippers and the fandom by "resolving" the relationship, no matter how little sense the entire thing makes because of all the glaring plot holes. And when someone on Twitter tells him that this aspect of his story makes no sense he gets defensive and starts to insult people. I get it that he's fed up with naysayers who hate things for the sake of hating it - we all know how annoying a certain YouTuber can be - but honestly this time they have a point? And he seems to think that Crusher's reasoning actually makes total sense and is justified. Like... umm...? Unless there's something else that's coming up this is seriously messed up and it really doesn't do Crusher's character ANY sort of favor.

His behavior reminds me of behavior I've witnessed from dudes who write Trek fan fic that is filled with fan service (bringing back all the old crews, big baddie ships, epic space battles etc) - they think their story is flawless and magnificent and if someone points out that stuff doesn't make sense they get angry and defensive and start to pout like "NO MY STORY IS THE BEST STORY EVER". This is precisely the kind of behavior Matalas has been displaying ever since season 3 was announced. And now he even says he KNOWS that Speleers is too old for the role and that accidentally getting pregnant isn't a thing in the 25th century. And yet he STILL expects for people to be all over this because "this is good drama". There's a difference between "yeah I can go with this flaw in the story it's just a little nitpick" (I'm the last person to condemn this sort of thing) and "wow this makes no sense whatsoever AND the showrunner KNEW it made no sense and yet he pushed this through".

 

[Weyoun 251]

If Matalas' intention was to show how utterly toxic and filled with gaslighting the whole Picard/Crusher thing is and has always been and how they just don't fit together at all then yes, he succeeded. I would agree 100% there.

However, in all of the interviews with him I've read and seen he seems to seriously think he's doing a good thing for the shippers and the fandom by "resolving" the relationship, no matter how little sense the entire thing makes because of all the glaring plot holes. And when someone on Twitter tells him that this aspect of his story makes no sense he gets defensive and starts to insult people. I get it that he's fed up with naysayers who hate things for the sake of hating it - we all know how annoying a certain YouTuber can be - but honestly this time they have a point? And he seems to think that Crusher's reasoning actually makes total sense and is justified. Like... umm...? Unless there's something else that's coming up this is seriously messed up and it really doesn't do Crusher's character ANY sort of favor.

His behavior reminds me of behavior I've witnessed from dudes who write Trek fan fic that is filled with fan service (bringing back all the old crews, big baddie ships, epic space battles etc) - they think their story is flawless and magnificent and if someone points out that stuff doesn't make sense they get angry and defensive and start to pout like "NO MY STORY IS THE BEST STORY EVER". This is precisely the kind of behavior Matalas has been displaying ever since season 3 was announced. And now he even says he KNOWS that Speleers is too old for the role and that accidentally getting pregnant isn't a thing in the 25th century. And yet he STILL expects for people to be all over this because "this is good drama". There's a difference between "yeah I can go with this flaw in the story it's just a little nitpick" (I'm the last person to condemn this sort of thing) and "wow this makes no sense whatsoever AND the showrunner KNEW it made no sense and yet he pushed this through".

Okay, technically 24th c (but so is Beverley's pregnancy) but Sisko and Kassidy's pregnancy was literally an accident - they make comments about Sisko forgetting his jab or whatever it was so it does happen

 

[Agony_Boothb]

If Matalas' intention was to show how utterly toxic and filled with gaslighting the whole Picard/Crusher thing is and has always been and how they just don't fit together at all then yes, he succeeded. I would agree 100% there.

However, in all of the interviews with him I've read and seen he seems to seriously think he's doing a good thing for the shippers and the fandom by "resolving" the relationship, no matter how little sense the entire thing makes because of all the glaring plot holes. And when someone on Twitter tells him that this aspect of his story makes no sense he gets defensive and starts to insult people. I get it that he's fed up with naysayers who hate things for the sake of hating it - we all know how annoying a certain YouTuber can be - but honestly this time they have a point? And he seems to think that Crusher's reasoning actually makes total sense and is justified. Like... umm...? Unless there's something else that's coming up this is seriously messed up and it really doesn't do Crusher's character ANY sort of favor.

His behavior reminds me of behavior I've witnessed from dudes who write Trek fan fic that is filled with fan service (bringing back all the old crews, big baddie ships, epic space battles etc) - they think their story is flawless and magnificent and if someone points out that stuff doesn't make sense they get angry and defensive and start to pout like "NO MY STORY IS THE BEST STORY EVER". This is precisely the kind of behavior Matalas has been displaying ever since season 3 was announced. And now he even says he KNOWS that Speleers is too old for the role and that accidentally getting pregnant isn't a thing in the 25th century. And yet he STILL expects for people to be all over this because "this is good drama". There's a difference between "yeah I can go with this flaw in the story it's just a little nitpick" (I'm the last person to condemn this sort of thing) and "wow this makes no sense whatsoever AND the showrunner KNEW it made no sense and yet he pushed this through".

Gaslighting and Toxic are words that get thrown around way too easily these days. I don't see how Picard and Crusher's relationship was ever depicted this way in TNG.

 

[MrPicard]

Okay, technically 24th c (but so is Beverley's pregnancy) but Sisko and Kassidy's pregnancy was literally an accident - they make comments about Sisko forgetting his jab or whatever it was so it does happen

Yeah I know, 24th (they’re discussing it in the 25th, I guess that’s the take here, idk) - and that Sisko thing is exactly what I’m referring to. “Forgetting the jab” does not sound like Jean-Luc Picard to me. The show tries to make a point about how he was always afraid of becoming a father, so, he would never forget that jab, especially not if he’s planning on going on shore leave with a woman. Sorry but I just don’t buy this. The show contradicts itself right there just for the sake of “creating drama with an accidental pregnancy”.

But then maybe there’s more to this entire nonsensical approach/explanation and all this is one gigantic ruse. I want to think so. But given what we’ve seen so far… I don’t have a lot of hope.

 

[F. King Daniel]

What are the chances the Picard/Riker fallout is just a ploy to out the spy?

I'm 50/50 on Riker being a shapeshifter too

 

[Weyoun 251]

I'm 50/50 on Riker being a shapeshifter too

Are we certain it isn't Picard? We saw him go to sickbay but I don't think he would have then left Jack's side to return and I wondered if Picard on the bridge at the end might have been one - especially with the change in approach

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

However, in all of the interviews with him I've read and seen he seems to seriously think he's doing a good thing for the shippers and the fandom by "resolving" the relationship, no matter how little sense the entire thing makes because of all the glaring plot holes. And when someone on Twitter tells him that this aspect of his story makes no sense he gets defensive and starts to insult people.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is the "Starting Point" of Jack's Birth.

Everything else makes sense.

He should'vbe been born earlier to match Ed Speleers actual age.

 

[Wouter]

I think they make a point early on that the Titan is outgunned and outclassed, that it "isn't the Enterprise". Is it not more of a science ship? It doesn't even appear to have quantum torpedoes, as far as armament goes it seems decades behind. This makes sense in a lot of ways and explains why Shaw was so hesitant about leaving Federation space.

I'd bet any modern Starfleet ship equipped for battle would be able to take down the shrike no problem, probably the Enterprise-E or Defiant could solo it with little effort.

The Titan isn't particularly well armed (which makes the whole refit thing even more unlikely as Rikers vessel was heavily armed), but the Shrike does seem to have a ridiculous amount of armament, like a Dominion battleship or worse. Hopefully, the show will at least acknowledge there is serious money/resources behind Vadic and co.

I didn't like Sydney Laforge calling her own father a legend - come on - and I missed someone like Mariner in this episode when the vulcan science officer said "starfleet has never encountered anything like it". I"m sure Mariner would come up with a list of similar encounters

 

[Weyoun 251]

The Titan isn't particularly well armed (which makes the whole refit thing even more unlikely as Rikers vessel was heavily armed), but the Shrike does seem to have a ridiculous amount of armament, like a Dominion battleship or worse. Hopefully, the show will at least acknowledge there is serious money/resources behind Vadic and co.

I didn't like Sydney Laforge calling her own father a legend - come on - and I missed someone like Mariner in this episode when the vulcan science officer said "starfleet has never encountered anything like it". I"m sure Mariner would come up with a list of similar encounters

I didn't mind her talking about her dad that way but mostly because I have heard it enough in the sports world (especially WWE (real interviews not promos) and football (real football not "kick it every so often"ball) where people will talk about their family and generally legendary players of the game in gushing terms like that

 

[Skipper]

Gaslighting and Toxic are words that get thrown around way too easily these days. I don't see how Picard and Crusher's relationship was ever depicted this way in TNG.

"Gaslighting" is a little too much, but it didn't exactly seem like the healthiest of relationships to me.

 

[Skipper]

However, I understand the problem of the authors. They wanted Picard to have a child he didn't know about, and the justifications for it must necessarily have been convoluted and unrealistic.

The one thing that really bugged me is Beverly's absolute and utter certainty that she absolutely did the best thing. Jean-Luc led a dangerous life. So? Should the wives of policemen and soldiers hide their children from their fathers and disappear for twenty years too? There wasn't a moment of doubt or regret in the conversation she had with Jean-Luc. It felt a little too much honestly.

 

[Soong-type Android]

It's a pity Patrick Stewart waited so long to make this series because Picard sounds so old and frail and he seems held more in affection like an elderly relative rather than held in authority like the old Picard.