Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x08 - "Broken Pieces"

[fireproof78]

I've had 50 years of "strong males." I can live with two shows featuring females. Oh, and DSC has some rather strong males in Lorca and Pike, among others.

Such stupid BS.

ETA: To misquote SFDebris when he had to respond to an interview question regarding working with mostly women: "What does the number of women in the workplace have to do with my job other than meaning a shorter line to wait for the bathroom?"

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It's there for all to see, on this show and especially, Discovery. Airiam gets a full episode to herself, Detmer gets plenty of screen time, Owo goes on an away mission. Rhys and Bryce? Absolutely nothing. Must be their "tiny male brains" as the script for one episode put it.

Thankfully it's not as bad on Picard. It would be nice to see a strong male Starfleet officer for a change though. Or not have scrawny weak-looking Romulans cower in fear as Narissa takes their guns and orders them to follow her.

Nothing disproves the notion of "tiny male brains" and male weakness like only being able to think and post about how a single throwaway joke line from a TV episode wronged you years ago. Seriously, get over it. You're the only one who is still thinking about that and being offended by it and by doing so you actually exemplify the very thing you're complaining about.

 

[cooleddie74]

Tiny Male Brains were a pretty bad indie band. Called themselves a trio and had only two members, one of whom played a gong.

 

[AresB]

Well said. At the end of the day, two wrongs don't make a right.

Wrongs? Even the idea of including women in Star Trek in the 60's was controversial. When Roddenberry suggested 1/3 of the crew would be women, it was met with derision: "How do they get anything done with all the hanky-panky going around?" He had to drop the female first officer, but otherwise the show ended up showing positive role models not only for women, but also for black women. And that was certainly not "wrong."
TOS was a step forward in its day, and modern Treks continue on that road. It's not a case of "swinging pendulum."

 

[Grendelsbayne]

But you're ignoring what the show creator said. Yes, it could be changed in the future, but it provides a particular explanation for why Oh had an all female group in that particular scene. Now I see what they were possibly going for, which in of itself isn't a bad thing.

Yes. Because intent doesn't matter until it actually makes it on screen and nothing on screen so far actually says they are matriarchal.

It was Gene Roddenberry's intent that Vulcans had hypnotic sex powers and Ferengi had giant dicks, too.

I never said that only women are criticizing Picard. I specifically mentioned the Romulan who harshly lectured Picard and was killed by Elnor.

You said that the only man who criticized him was a bad guy who was objectively wrong and immediately killed.

I dono't recall Riker lecturing Picard. Troi was going at him with some tough love and Riker thought she went too far and even exclaimed "Imzadi!" I do remember Riker giving him some advice though.

''Classic Picard arrogance. You get to make the decisions about who gets to take the chances and who doesn't and who's in the loop and who's out of it and naturally it always ends up with you. And that's fine... on the bridge of your starship, Captain. But now you're dealing with a teenager, more or less. That can be an extremely humbling experience and frankly, I'm not sure you're up to it."

It's there for all to see, on this show and especially, Discovery. Airiam gets a full episode to herself, Detmer gets plenty of screen time, Owo goes on an away mission. Rhys and Bryce? Absolutely nothing. Must be their "tiny male brains" as the script for one episode put it.

Thankfully it's not as bad on Picard. It would be nice to see a strong male Starfleet officer for a change though. Or not have scrawny weak-looking Romulans cower in fear as Narissa takes their guns and orders them to follow her.

Lorca, Saru, Stamets, Culber, Pike, Spock, Picard, Riker, Rios...

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Yes. Because intent doesn't matter until it actually makes it on screen and nothing on screen so far actually says they are matriarchal.

No, but it answered my question so why are we going around and around on this?

You said that the only man who criticized him was a bad guy who was objectively wrong and immediately killed.

You're forgetting I cited Elnor as well. So I didn't say it was only women lecturing Picard harshly.

''Classic Picard arrogance. You get to make the decisions about who gets to take the chances and who doesn't and who's in the loop and who's out of it and naturally it always ends up with you. And that's fine... on the bridge of your starship, Captain. But now you're dealing with a teenager, more or less. That can be an extremely humbling experience and frankly, I'm not sure you're up to it."

It was more a father giving advice to a non-father, compared to Troi pretty much calling Picard a dick. If it was the same type of lecturing, why would Riker have a problem with Troi doing it?

That said, Riker claiming that Picard was displaying "classic Picard arrogance" was a surprise to me. "Arrogant" is not how I would describe Picard. Maybe Kirk, but Picard was mostly portrayed as the anti-Kirk. The thoughtful, sensitive one. He was more known for being diplomatic. Suddenly he's this arrogant guy, ruled by his ego and id.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

No, but it answered my question so why are we going around and around on this?

I don't know. There's a small group of people that all happen to be women. This is nothing strange, yet people keep insisting that I shouldn't 'ignore' Chabon's intent because it 'explains' them. My point is: I never needed them explained, so why should I care about his intent?

You're forgetting I cited Elnor as well. So I didn't say it was only women lecturing Picard harshly.

And immediately disqualified him for being sensitive and raised by women.

It was more a father giving advice to a non-father, compared to Troi pretty much calling Picard a dick. If it was the same type of lecturing, why would Riker have a problem with Troi doing it?

That said, Riker claiming that Picard was displaying "classic Picard arrogance" was a surprise to me. "Arrogant" is not how I would describe Picard. Maybe Kirk, but Picard was mostly portrayed as the anti-Kirk. The thoughtful, sensitive one. He was more known for being diplomatic. Suddenly he's this arrogant guy, ruled by his ego and id.

Disagree. He called him arrogant, stuck in his ways and not up to dealing with the challenge at hand and the clear intent of his little peptalk was that he *needed* to change his tune and be less controlling.

Riker was friendlier about it than most of the other characters because of all of them he's the one closest to Picard as a person and that's still important to him, but what he had to say was still very much a dressing down following the exact same theme as the rest of them - that Picard needs to get over himself and see the world from other people's pov.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

My point is: I never needed them explained, so why should I care about his intent?

Well there's the problem. You don't have to care about his intent. Other people are just curious why the group happened to be all female, and it seems like it was intentional, from what one poster mentioned Chabon saying about Romulan society. Not to mention apparently there's precedence in the novels.
And yet here we are.

And immediately disqualified him for being sensitive and raised by women.

Disqualified him in what way? I said that the he was the exception and cited his background, personality and upbringing as being a role reversal. Men, especially warrior types, are portrayed as not being in touch with their feelings, as being expressive and open about feelings has traditionally been seen as a feminine characteristic. His portrayal would be a role reversal or better, a rejection of traditional gender stereotypes. How is that a bad thing?

Disagree. He called him arrogant, stuck in his ways and not up to dealing with the challenge at hand and the clear intent of his little peptalk was that he *needed* to change his tune and be less controlling.

Not up to dealing with the challenge of teenagers. Different from what Troi was saying. And I'm critical of the entire scene as well for that matter.

Riker was friendlier about it than most of the other characters because of all of them he's the one closest to Picard as a person and that's still important to him, but what he had to say was still very much a dressing down following the exact same theme as the rest of them - that Picard needs to get over himself and see the world from other people's pov.

Key difference, not to mention dad advice vs attacking his character.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Well there's the problem. You don't have to care about his intent. Other people are just curious why the group happened to be all female, and it seems like it was intentional, from what one poster mentioned Chabon saying about Romulan society. Not to mention apparently there's precedence in the novels.
And yet here we are.

Other people are implying that having a scene with a group of people that are all female somehow constitutes throwing men under the bus and only caring about women, that the 'pendulum has swung too far in the other direction', etc.

I'm saying if you see a single scene that happens to have like ten women in it and suddenly feel like this is something that needs to be explained as if it's not possible for there to just be ten women together completely at random then you are being ridiculous.

So Chabon views the Zhat Vash as matriarchal. That's great. That's why he made that scene with all the women. But why exactly are people acting like that scene is any way questionable before they find out Chabon's opinion on the matriarchy? It's just a scene with some women in it.

Disqualified him in what way? I said that the he was the exception and cited his background, personality and upbringing as being a role reversal. Men, especially warrior types, are portrayed as not being in touch with their feelings, as being expressive and open about feelings has traditionally been seen as a feminine characteristic. His portrayal would be a role reversal or better, a rejection of traditional gender stereotypes. How is that a bad thing?

Overall, the show seems to be aware of the current social climate and is intent on flipping gender roles. The women are depicted as more aggressive and assertive. The "good guys" that give Picard a rightful dressing down are all women, with the exception of Elnor who was raised by women and is the most sensitive of the male characters we've seen. In fact when Seven comes to the rescue, Elnor, who has no problem killing and decapitating people, runs to hug her like a child running to his mother, or a damsel-in-distress running into the arms of her prince. The "bad guy" who give Picard a wrongful dressing down is a male Romulan who is swiftly beheaded.

You said the good guys who do it are all women, except Elnor who is basically feminine and the actually masculine guy who does it is wrong and swiftly beheaded. You implied the show is fundamentally biased against masculinity while simultaneously negating Elnor's masculinity for no good reason and also ignoring multiple other male characters who also criticized Picard.

Not up to dealing with the challenge of teenagers. Different from what Troi was saying. And I'm critical of the entire scene as well for that matter.

Key difference, not to mention dad advice vs attacking his character.

All of the dressing downs are about different subjects. Because the point is it's Picard's behavior that needs work, not just his ability to deal with one particular thing or another.

And what Troi said was in no way an attack on his character. It was just as much 'mom advice' as what Riker said was 'dad advice'.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Other people are implying that having a scene with a group of people that are all female somehow constitutes throwing men under the bus and only caring about women, that the 'pendulum has swung too far in the other direction', etc.

And I specifically said that it's not an example of the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction, at least not in a negative way.

I'm saying if you see a single scene that happens to have like ten women in it and suddenly feel like this is something that needs to be explained as if it's not possible for there to just be ten women together completely at random then you are being ridiculous.

:icard facepalm::
You're taking it out of context to minimize it. If it were only men in this ceremony AND we already saw a male-only warrior sect from the same culture, I'd be wondering if that carried any significance too in regards to this alien culture, or if maybe the writers had a subconscious bias or were relying on stereotypical sexist tropes.

So Chabon views the Zhat Vash as matriarchal. That's great. That's why he made that scene with all the women. But why exactly are people acting like that scene is any way questionable before they find out Chabon's opinion on the matriarchy? It's just a scene with some women in it.

I didn't say it was questionable so your beef is with someone else. And from what another poster said, it wasn't the Zhat Vash but Romulan society in general. I don't have the interview, nor have I read the novels though.

You said the good guys who do it are all women, except Elnor who is basically feminine and the actually masculine guy who does it is wrong and swiftly beheaded. You implied the show is fundamentally biased against masculinity while simultaneously negating Elnor's masculinity for no good reason and also ignoring multiple other male characters who also criticized Picard.

Whoa, that's on you if misinterpret what I actually typed and came up with all that.
I never said it was biased against masculinity. What I actually said:

Overall, the show seems to be aware of the current social climate and is intent on flipping gender roles. The women are depicted as more aggressive and assertive. The "good guys" that give Picard a rightful dressing down are all women, with the exception of Elnor who was raised by women and is the most sensitive of the male characters we've seen. In fact when Seven comes to the rescue, Elnor, who has no problem killing and decapitating people, runs to hug her like a child running to his mother, or a damsel-in-distress running into the arms of her prince. The "bad guy" who give Picard a wrongful dressing down is a male Romulan who is swiftly beheaded.

Where did I say the show was biased against masculinity? What's wrong with role reversals or rejecting traditional gender stereotypes?

And I followed up with a response to Kpnuts:

I don't believe this is a case of "two wrongs don't make a right." I do believe the pendulum has swung in the direction of having more emphasis on female characters and away from traditional gender role portrayals, but that in of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Modern shows, especially aged ones like Star Trek, need to switch things up to make the material fresh for modern audiences. While I like the character of Elnor I'm also critical of his portrayal in certain aspects. Yet, him being more sensitive, which I'm assuming is partially due to the fact that he was raised by all women, makes the character unique. It's a change from the stoic bad ass swordsman who decapitates his enemies without hesitation.
When he went to hug Seven, it went against the average viewers expectations, yet it fit for the character.

The name "Beautiful Flower" for the male synth could be continuing the theme of shaking up traditional ideas of how we view gender. I myself thought it was interesting in a good way that the male synth had this name. Again, it was unexpected since he was a male and his sister had a more normal traditional, feminine name, but it makes sense. There's already this theme of flowers and names starting with Dahj's origin of her name. And it makes the story more tragic that this delightful, artistic being named "Beautiful Flower" was murdered. It doesn't have quite the same impact if his name had just been something like "Jacub."

Maybe Elnor's portrayal is a rejection of stereotypical masculinity aka toxic masculinity. There's nothing wrong with being a man and being sensitive or occupying a role and displaying a trait that has typically been associated with women.

 

[cooleddie74]

Bob Ross was about as sensitive and caring and expressive of one's feminine side as an American male of the mid-to-late 20th century could probably get and he was also an Air Force drill sergeant before leaving the military and pursuing an art career. The man yelled for a living and whipped servicemen into shape. Hardly somebody "real men" should be ashamed of because he had a feminine, nurturing side that he showed the rest of the world later in life.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

:icard facepalm::
You're taking it out of context to minimize it. If it were only men in this ceremony AND we already saw a male-only warrior sect from the same culture, I'd be wondering if that carried any significance too in regards to this alien culture, or if maybe the writers had a subconscious bias or were relying on stereotypical sexist tropes.

Even if we'd already seen a 'male-only warrior sect' (which, really, would we even be able to identify such a thing considering it's so often completely normal to just show men as warriors in hollywood? Did anyone ever call the Jem'hadar a male only warrior sect? Or the Hirogen?), it would still be just a scene with some mostly unknown men in it. Especially if we'd already seen women as Zhat Vash operatives multiple times before that (which we did see men as operatives multiple times before this scene). It has no dialogue or narrative of any kind to imply these characters are in any way unique, special, leaders, upper cast or anything of the sort. They're just there, sharing an experience in a small group.

Where did I say the show was biased against masculinity?

When you started the post agreeing with someone who literally just said that this is all just the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction and then spent an entire paragraph associating all the female characters with 'aggressiveness and assertiveness' and with criticizing Picard himself while ignoring or downplaying all the many male characters who showed the same qualities/actions. Even going so far as to imply that Elnor isn't really masculine because he's sensitive and that it was somehow supposed to be a meaningful symbolic point that the masculine man who criticized Picard was wrong in his criticism but all the women (and Not Really Masculine Elnor) were right.

What's wrong with role reversals or rejecting traditional gender stereotypes?

Nothing. So let's please do that and stop pretending that 'aggressive women' and 'sensitive men' are some kind of political statement that needs to be analyzed instead of just people existing in lots of different forms. And also let's stop pretending that this show is only focused on strong women and less 'masculine' men when we've literally got characters like Riker, Picard, Rios, Zhaban and Narek staring us in the face. Not to mention Dr. Jurati.

Maybe Elnor's portrayal is a rejection of stereotypical masculinity aka toxic masculinity. There's nothing wrong with being a man and being sensitive or occupying a role and displaying a trait that has typically been associated with women.

Agreed.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I wouldn't go that far...

But seriously I think it's a theoretical possibility, but I find myself entirely undecided on what I think has the best odds of actually happening. Part of me actually enjoys the narrative potential of Beautiful Flower is Rios, but even I'm having difficulty trying to justify that one plot-wise in my head.

And we still don't know.

Spoiler: 1 x 09

Rios didn't seem to recognize Soong, or anybody else. Which is odd, because the unusual name and his presence as part of the first contact delegation implies that he should be an important character. Perhaps his identity is a revelation being saved for the finale.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

And we still don't know. [Spoiler edited out.]

Spoiler

Rios never saw Narek, did he?

But then, even if Sutra was playing dumb why wouldn't one of the other androids have recognized Narek if that were the case.

 

[RJDiogenes]

[Spoiler edited out.]

I don't recall, but I don't think so.

[Spoiler edited out.]

I really hope it's not Narek. I just want the Rommie Twins to die and be forgotten.

 

[Llywela]

And we still don't know. [Spoiler edited out.]

I think this post is a spoiler for episode eight, but having now seen episode nine I actually don't think Beautiful Flower was anyone we'd recognise at all - he was just another synth from the planet of synths, his identity was not important.

 

[Gonzo]

Crap wrong thread.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Sorry, forgot which thread we were in. I've tagged my post now.

 

[The Wormhole]

The fact is they made a choice to depict all the Zhat Vash in that scene as female, and I don't understand why.

What else would you expect? Vash is a female name after all. Oh, no! the secret order with a female name consists entirely of women! Such conspiracy! Much disrespect of men! Except not.

 

[Ovation]

It's there for all to see, on this show and especially, Discovery. Airiam gets a full episode to herself, Detmer gets plenty of screen time, Owo goes on an away mission. Rhys and Bryce? Absolutely nothing. Must be their "tiny male brains" as the script for one episode put it.

Thankfully it's not as bad on Picard. It would be nice to see a strong male Starfleet officer for a change though. Or not have scrawny weak-looking Romulans cower in fear as Narissa takes their guns and orders them to follow her.

You know what else would be nice? No more ridiculous, baseless, outright fallacious statements about "emasculated males" in TV shows that happen to feature women who don't simply cower in fear ("Captain, I'm frightened") or find themselves restricted to tertiary roles while serving mostly as eye candy for "real men" in various posts. That would be nice indeed.