Star Trek Into Darkness & The Bechdel Test

[Pauln6]

Yeah, I enjoyed that article and it was one of the articles I read previously. Although I took the view that it supports my general position - I don't believe that the writers have a sexist agenda but that obliviousness to the issue leads them to produce a sexist product. Whether you label it sexism or laziness because if we're raking in the cash don't fix it, the article indicates that there is a strong gender divide. The objective problem does exist.

The article was looking at the situation in a wider context too. Bridesmaids was a film that focused on a group of women but I expect that there were roughly as many male characters as female. I don't expect to see a 50/50 ratio in a war movie or a historical drama, depending on the subject matter, so I think an overall gender divide across the industry is probably inevitable from the perspective of where the article is coming from.

Trek's problem is that it espouses equality but doesn't display it. In the sixties a crew that was 1/3 female seemed very progressive but the butterfly effect and 40 years of real world emancipation should have moved that on. I don't see it.

 

[BillJ]

Trek's problem is that it espouses equality but doesn't display it. In the sixties a crew that was 1/3 female seemed very progressive but the butterfly effect and 40 years of real world emancipation should have moved that on. I don't see it.

I think the biggest thing I noticed is women seem like to watch men engage in violent behavior in entertainment. Backed up by the fact that 44% of NFL (National Football League) spending is done by women.

 

[BillJ]

The objective problem does exist.

And if women want it changed, they are increasingly in the position to do it via economics. Like I've said all along.

 

[Pauln6]

And just to throw that in:

Star Trek Into Darkness

Film Editing by
Maryann Brandon
Mary Jo Markey

Casting by
April Webster
Alyssa Weisberg

Casting Department
Maryellen Aviano .... extras casting coordinator
Kelly Valentine Hendry .... casting search
Victor Jenkins .... casting search
Gumby Kounthong .... extras casting
Carla Lewis .... extras casting
Jessica F. Sherman .... casting assistant
Erica L. Silverman .... casting associate
Leah Woodworth .... extras casting assistant

Oh yeah - I've noticed that casting directors are very often women. Although I presume that they can only cast the characters that are in the script. Still, please don't assume that I would ever suggest that women cannot be prejudiced against their own gender. In fact, if women were not so disloyal to their own sex, they would have taken over the world a long time ago!

I think it's a matter of perspective though. Women may like what they see but would they like it more or less if there was more gender balance? The social norms have obscured the problem from many people's consciousness. Most women have not even noticed that there is an issue like most women were not concerned whether they had the vote when suffragettes started out.

 

[Commishsleer]

I get the impression that Marcus' interrupted meeting was with the upper echelons which were all male.

It wasn't the upper echelons, it was just the captains and first officers of al the ships that were in the sector at that time. For all we know it Khan had blow the archive up a week earlier the meeting could have had more women then men, or hell been mostly non-human.

No not the meeting with the captains and FOs the little tete a tete he was having afterwards with about 8 men. To me they looked like Marcus' 'yes' men. Mostly admirals.
This was the meeting Kirk and Spock interrupted. There were no women in the room.

 

[BillJ]

I get the impression that Marcus' interrupted meeting was with the upper echelons which were all male.

It wasn't the upper echelons, it was just the captains and first officers of al the ships that were in the sector at that time. For all we know it Khan had blow the archive up a week earlier the meeting could have had more women then men, or hell been mostly non-human.

No not the meeting with the captains and FOs the little tete a tete he was having afterwards with about 8 men. To me they looked like Marcus' 'yes' men. Mostly admirals.
This was the meeting Kirk and Spock interrupted. There were no women in the room.

Yes there was. One in a skirt walks away when the meeting breaks up. Whether or not she was the secretary or someone important, I don't know.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It wasn't the upper echelons, it was just the captains and first officers of al the ships that were in the sector at that time. For all we know it Khan had blow the archive up a week earlier the meeting could have had more women then men, or hell been mostly non-human.

No not the meeting with the captains and FOs the little tete a tete he was having afterwards with about 8 men. To me they looked like Marcus' 'yes' men. Mostly admirals.
This was the meeting Kirk and Spock interrupted. There were no women in the room.

Yes there was. One in a skirt walks away when the meeting breaks up. Whether or not she was the secretary or someone important, I don't know.

Someone posted a screencap showing several women in attendance.

 

[BillJ]

Someone posted a screencap showing several women in attendance.

I think you're thinking of the meeting prior to the attack on Daystrom. I could only spot one woman in the Marcus' meeting after the attack.

 

[BillJ]

Present me with the evidence and I will compare it to the evidence of the contra position.

Well? I posted evidence about women's increased buying power.

 

[Pauln6]

Someone posted a screencap showing several women in attendance.

I think you're thinking of the meeting prior to the attack on Daystrom. I could only spot one woman in the Marcus' meeting after the attack.

Maybe the actress playing the stenographer in the first movie signed up for 3 films? If so, she's our second female recurring character to date! Awesome.

 

[BillJ]

Someone posted a screencap showing several women in attendance.

I think you're thinking of the meeting prior to the attack on Daystrom. I could only spot one woman in the Marcus' meeting after the attack.

Maybe the actress playing the stenographer in the first movie signed up for 3 films? If so, she's our second female recurring character to date! Awesome.

Like I said, I don't know who she was. Just that a woman was there.

 

[Pauln6]

Present me with the evidence and I will compare it to the evidence of the contra position.

Well? I posted evidence about women's increased buying power.

But what's the solution being proposed?

To ask women only to patronise movies demonstrating equality? How would that be implemented on a practical level?

To ask women to fund movies demonstrating equality? I think we'd need to do an analysis of the gender divide among the wealthiest investors to see what likely impact that could have overall.

I think trying to raise awareness that the divide exists among both male and female script writers and male and female casting directors and encourage them to think about their characters more equally is a simpler solution but I don't see why all three couldn't be attempted.

 

[BillJ]

To ask women to fund movies demonstrating equality? I think we'd need to do an analysis of the gender divide among the wealthiest investors to see what likely impact that could have overall.

They don't have to be investors. All they have to do is quit buying tickets to movies that present things that they are against.

But what's the solution being proposed?

That is up to women. I don't want to speak for someone or a group of people who have shown to be wholly capable of speaking for themselves.

Did you ever stop to think that this isn't as big an issue to women as it is to you?

 

[Harvey]

It wasn't people like Gene Roddenberry who changed the way TV did business in the 1960's, it was advertisers. Advertisers who saw that minorities and women had increased buying power and wanted shows that they would watch so they could insert advertising and get those folks to buy their products.

It wasn't just advertisers in the 60s that led to more black and female roles; the three networks at that time also had serious fears about potential government intervention.

But, this doesn't change the point much.

 

[Pauln6]

But what's the solution being proposed?

That is up to women. I don't want to speak for someone or a group of people who have shown to be wholly capable of speaking for themselves.

Did you ever stop to think that this isn't as big an issue to women as it is to you?

Hell yes. I nag the women at work all the time. Despite being way smarter and more efficient than me a lot of them lack the confidence to go for promotion. I think they should encouraged because it helps society overall. More women in more senior positions will make the world a much better place. Too many a**holes have too much power. Women hold the key to the population explosion and a lot of other issues.

I for one am ready to serve my female overlords.

I'm still not seeing how the average woman is going to know that Star Trek is a bit light on women in speaking roles. Are you suggesting that women should check the cast list of every movie before going? Or obtaining a copy of the script online and counting the lines of each character. I don't see it as a realisitic solution compared to lobbying the writers and producers.

 

[BillJ]

It wasn't just advertisers in the 60s that led to more black and female roles; the three networks at that time also had serious fears about potential government intervention.

But, this doesn't change the point much.

Thanks for adding more information to the debate, Harvey.

 

[Pauln6]

It wasn't just advertisers in the 60s that led to more black and female roles; the three networks at that time also had serious fears about potential government intervention.

But, this doesn't change the point much.

Thanks for adding more information to the debate, Harvey.

Kudos. And governments were influenced by lobbying.

 

[BillJ]

Despite being way smarter and more efficient than me a lot of them lack the confidence to go for promotion.

Women are just like men. Some are smart, some aren't. Some are confident, some aren't. Some are assholes, some aren't.

You tell my wife she needs a man to fight her battles for her and she'll punch you in the mouth.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Someone posted a screencap showing several women in attendance.

I think you're thinking of the meeting prior to the attack on Daystrom. I could only spot one woman in the Marcus' meeting after the attack.

Because they were all killed!!!!

Typical Hollywood!!!

 

[BillJ]

I'm still not seeing how the average woman is going to know that Star Trek is a bit light on women in speaking roles. Are you suggesting that women should check the cast list of every movie before going?

This is the age of instantaneous communication and the information isn't hard at all to come by. If it's important, then it should be worth the effort.