I was pissed off at that scene, although performing a u-turn in an atmosphere while travelling at terminal velocity was worse.
Star Trek III Self Destruct
- Thread starter Pauln6
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This is the kind of story logic that I would have liked to see in the Enterprise Incident instead of skating over how it's possible to just beam onto an enemy ship without them noticing.
The Klingons have to lower shields to beam over but they still have a someone manning a transporter station who might be able to intercept an incursion. Ships must have security to prevent incursions after all. They could have sent a couple of people to the planet and a couple to take the Klingon ship but they had no way of knowing how many Klingons were left.
And of course all the things I listed would be programmed into the ship's computer. And especially those. Any fool can pull the plug on magnetic containment, literally and physically, and die in the process. But it takes computer control to burn out the engines or to orchestrate the total collapse of life support, of venting out of air or in of poisons. And only a computer can ram the ship to a star safely.
That's no motivation to think it didn't malfunction, though.
Perhaps there was. But why would Kirk have chosen that one? He wasn't tracking down the boarding party or anything. He wanted them assuredly dead, and he'd have had no reason to hold back with the primary hull. Better blow up the whole saucer, but not the mighty engines.
That's definitely something Kirk couldn't count on. If he couldn't tackle the incoming boarding party with his trusty sidearm and his Kirk-Fu, by definition he would fail to take over the enemy ship if the boarding party didn't comprise 90% of the ship's crew. And Kruge wasn't exactly sending over the specs before sending over the party.
What Kirk did know was that the Klingons would be coming, and that they wouldn't be happy if Kirk did something bad to the boarding party. So he had to sidestep somehow. But pondering the odds, he probably could rest assured that Starfleet would be there very soon, chasing him - and Kruge would be thinking likewise. So Kirk should stall, Kruge should hasten, and the endgame would depend on things other than the control of a barely functional weak warship.
Had Kirk known what the audience knew, he probably would have thought back to Matt Decker and reflected on the wisdom of beaming down to a doomed planet when there was a weakly crewed ship to be taken. But he didn't know the ship was weakly crewed - and he didn't know the planet was doomed, either!
Timo Saloniemi
Yep. All he had was Sulu's estimate of "about a dozen," and the knowledge that there was at least one on the planet. Are most of them on the planet? Just two? How big a boarding party would Kruge send? It might make sense to send everyone, but for all he knows, the Enterprise still has 430 Starfleeters ready to kick ass and take names (and Kruge does bluster past his underling pointing out that in a stand-up fight, they were outnumbered 70 to 1). He deduces the ship is more severely damaged than it should be, but he doesn't pick up that Kirk is in his street clothes, and the boarding party is surprised the ship is lightly- to not-at-all crewed.
What I'm getting at is that Kirk knows that if Kruge is stupid enough to try to storm the Enterprise with a theoretical maximum of ten warriors, he's stupid enough to try to do it with, like, two, so there's no guarantee that he's about to put a serious dent in Kruge's numbers. Never minding the possibility that the Bird of Prey might be able to decline, jam, or shield against the incoming transporter beam, and the 23rd century hazards of beaming into a ship with an unknown interior layout, the smart money is to go to ground near, but not actually on top of, the people already on the planet so they can get their bearings before making their next move.
Another nuance and addition to the list-of-things-Kirk-wouldn't-know: Kruge appears to assemble his boarding party on his bridge. Possibly because his own transporters appear to be down for the count, as he agrees to use Kirk's (that is, the beaming is completely under the terms of Kirk, and utilizes the blue Starfleet effect). So did the Klingons beam to the Enterprise from Kruge's transporter room, or from his bridge?
Kirk would have to beam out first in order for his scheme to work. Where would he beam to, on that alien ship (which he does seem to be somewhat familiar with, down to recognizing the cloaking effect as being specific to this ship type)? If he tried to storm the bridge, not only might Kruge abort sending out his men, said men might in fact be right there facing Kirk!
Indeed, there wouldn't seem to be any safe way to beam to Kruge's compact ship without risking immediately alerting at least some of the Klingons, in which case Kirk would face all of them.
Timo Saloniemi
Kirk would have to beam out first in order for his scheme to work. Where would he beam to, on that alien ship (which he does seem to be somewhat familiar with, down to recognizing the cloaking effect as being specific to this ship type)? If he tried to storm the bridge, not only might Kruge abort sending out his men, said men might in fact be right there facing Kirk!
Indeed, there wouldn't seem to be any safe way to beam to Kruge's compact ship without risking immediately alerting at least some of the Klingons, in which case Kirk would face all of them.
Timo Saloniemi
They didn't have to beam over to the BoP's transporter station. They could have beamed anywhere on the ship and then conducted a raid.
In TOS they occasionally used the entirely logical caveat that beaming onto a spaceship is risky whether due to cramped spaces, spacial distortion caused by warp engines or plot contrivance. My view has always been you beam to a transporter room or risk ending up like Sonak otherwise there'd be no reason not to have an arms race to beam explosives or suicide bombers or strike teams onto enemy ships.
If my only choices were to beam over to an enemy ship or beam over to a planet that was about to destroy itself, I’d take my chances with the enemy ship
And Sonak transported to a transporter room, so I’m not sure why you used him as an example.
Watching the film the other day, I thought the only bits that didn't quite work in the self destruct were the Klignons deciding to spend their last second bouncing on the trampolines Kirk had left on the Enterprise bridge (which looked like something out a 70's Doctor Who UNIT story) and the very visible creases in the backcloth behind Kirk and company as they watch the Enterprise burn.
The actual explosion was still amazing though, starting with the bridge was the right artistic choice as watching the NCC 1701 burn off still gets me in the feels.
The actual explosion was still amazing though, starting with the bridge was the right artistic choice as watching the NCC 1701 burn off still gets me in the feels.
A transporter room that was not working and was therefore unable to shield them from warp core distortions...If my only choices were to beam over to an enemy ship or beam over to a planet that was about to destroy itself, I’d take my chances with the enemy ship
And Sonak transported to a transporter room, so I’m not sure why you used him as an example.
The Enterprise crew didn't know Genesis was about to explode. They started to figure that out when they beamed down, so the choice was escape to the supposedly-stable planet to try to save Saavik and Spock or over to the BOP[EDIT: Actually, I was wrong. I forgot about David's dialog to Kirk as mentioned below]- Kruge didn't know Kirk was in his civvies since he didn't see see Kirk on the viewscreen
- Why each ship could not scan the other to detect the number of people aboard is another question
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Sulu did scan the Klingon ship and said that such ship's typically had "about a dozen officers and men", IIRC.
No, he doesn't scan the ship. he spots the "energy surge" and they blast it before getting blasted. After they are crippled Kirk asks what the complement of a Bird of Prey is and Sulu pulls it out of his personal memory banks.
It's pretty natural to assume the Enterprise would be hobbled when it comes to scanning: there's no Spock at the sensors, the enemy is cloaked, and battle damage lingers.
It's not a biggie that Kruge fails to get good scans, either. Initially, he's hiding - scanning might not go well with that. Subsequently, his ship is blasted to bits. But he at least has the capacity for repairs, so the transporters are later restored.
Finding a safe spot to beam to aboard the BoP would appear undoable no matter what. Even with full scanners, the heroes would get an incomplete picture on a time-critical issue: what part of this tiny ship might be empty when they arrive? But since they evidently can't scan for the number of people, all hope of surprise arrival is lost. And as said, the heroes can't win even if they get the drop on Kruge's folks. They need the double whammy of first hiding aboard the enemy ship until Kruge sends most of his folks away, and then getting the drop.
As an aside, how could Kruge tell Kirk is in civilian clothing? His maroon wraparound has all the characteristics of the current Starfleet uniform, save for rank markings. And we (and the Klingons!) know those change at the drop of a hat, from the previous shows and movies already.
Timo Saloniemi
It's not a biggie that Kruge fails to get good scans, either. Initially, he's hiding - scanning might not go well with that. Subsequently, his ship is blasted to bits. But he at least has the capacity for repairs, so the transporters are later restored.
Finding a safe spot to beam to aboard the BoP would appear undoable no matter what. Even with full scanners, the heroes would get an incomplete picture on a time-critical issue: what part of this tiny ship might be empty when they arrive? But since they evidently can't scan for the number of people, all hope of surprise arrival is lost. And as said, the heroes can't win even if they get the drop on Kruge's folks. They need the double whammy of first hiding aboard the enemy ship until Kruge sends most of his folks away, and then getting the drop.
As an aside, how could Kruge tell Kirk is in civilian clothing? His maroon wraparound has all the characteristics of the current Starfleet uniform, save for rank markings. And we (and the Klingons!) know those change at the drop of a hat, from the previous shows and movies already.
Timo Saloniemi
Spock's voice: Indications are not at this time.
McCoy: Did I get it right?
Kirk: Great, Bones, just great.
Yes they did.
David: "It's okay -- I should have known you'd come... Saavik's right: this planet is unstable. It's going to destroy itself in a matter of hours."
And as I mentioned before, since Kirk's plan was to destroy the Enterprise with as many Klingons aboard as possible, knowing that his choice was either beaming down to a planet that was about to explode, or beaming over to the BoP (and yes, not knowing how many Klingons were still aboard), the logical choice would still have been the BoP. There was zero guarantee that once on the planet, they'd have a way to escape. At least with the BoP they'd have a chance of rescuing Saavik and Spock and escaping before the planet blew up. But we can't let logic get in the way of telling a good story...
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And if they could take control of the BoP they could beam everybody up while disabling their weapons in transit.
I think the reason why they didn't is because Maltz would have detected and intercepted the incoming signal. It would have been a death sentence at worst or a one way ticket to a Klingon brig at best.
Let's not question why a fully manned Romulan ship couldn’t detect an incoming transporter signal in the Enterprise Incident. I'm guessing Kirk had a Romulan double agent on the inside who distracted the transporter operator and security chief with bubble wrap.
I think the reason why they didn't is because Maltz would have detected and intercepted the incoming signal. It would have been a death sentence at worst or a one way ticket to a Klingon brig at best.
Let's not question why a fully manned Romulan ship couldn’t detect an incoming transporter signal in the Enterprise Incident. I'm guessing Kirk had a Romulan double agent on the inside who distracted the transporter operator and security chief with bubble wrap.
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