Star Trek II TWOK Parallel Universe??

[Mojochi]

Frankly, not that I dislike it, but I find TMP at odds with all of the original tv & movie franchise, especially when it comes to the actor's performances. In hindsight, I find it's presentation more aligned with that of TNG than of TOS, which is why it might not have been as well received as TWoK & there after. They returned to a very familiar cast & character dynamic in TWoK that I found somewhat absent in TMP, the exceedingly pronounced performance of Shatner, the snarkiness of Bones, the sly subtle arrogance of Spock & the affableness of Scotty seemed almost non-existent in TMP, even the return of Khan hearkened us back to days of old, which was what I believe their intent to have been, finding Star Trek's roots, returning to the base formula, after an awkward attempt to reinvent it. Their characters in TMP seemed more stoic or strictly business than we'd come to expect. It never even felt like the same people to me, just the same faces

And then, years later, when I saw how TNG settled into its rhythm, I began to notice how it, in many ways, echoed the tone of TMP more than TOS. Hell, they even use the same Goldsmith theme for both. Plus there's the fact that TMP was a reworked script for the Phase II pilot, which while that show never got produced, many of its elements found their way into TNG. So in a weird way, I consider TMP the birth of the next generation of Star Trek. However, most people weren't ready for that at the time. They still wanted the continuation of the first thing, & in a way Roddenberry had moved on & wanted to evolve it into the direction that would eventually become TNG, hence why he didn't jive well with much of what came after TMP, until he began reworking his show into what would become TNG

I dunno, maybe I'm crazy, but it always read like that to me

 

[Christopher]

They returned to a very familiar cast & character dynamic in TWoK that I found somewhat absent in TMP, the exceedingly pronounced performance of Shatner, the snarkiness of Bones, the sly subtle arrogance of Spock & the affableness of Scotty seemed almost non-existent in TMP...

Interesting you should say that about Shatner's performance in TWOK, because Nicholas Meyer has talked about how he had to do enough takes to tire Shatner out to the point that he stopped trying to play it big and just did it more naturally, which was what Meyer wanted. The "KHAAAAANNN!!!" moment is agonizingly over-the-top, of course, but otherwise, Shatner's relatively su

So in a weird way, I consider TMP the birth of the next generation of Star Trek. However, most people weren't ready for that at the time. They still wanted the continuation of the first thing, & in a way Roddenberry had moved on & wanted to evolve it into the direction that would eventually become TNG, hence why he didn't jive well with much of what came after TMP, until he began reworking his show into what would become TNG

I dunno, maybe I'm crazy, but it always read like that to me

No, that's a fair point. TMP and TNG both reflect what Roddenberry wanted to evolve ST into, a more intellectual, utopian vision of the future rather than a visceral action-adventure.

 

[Lance]

Frankly, not that I dislike it, but I find TMP at odds with all of the original tv & movie franchise, especially when it comes to the actor's performances. In hindsight, I find it's presentation more aligned with that of TNG than of TOS, which is why it might not have been as well received as TWoK & there after. They returned to a very familiar cast & character dynamic in TWoK that I found somewhat absent in TMP, the exceedingly pronounced performance of Shatner, the snarkiness of Bones, the sly subtle arrogance of Spock & the affableness of Scotty seemed almost non-existent in TMP, even the return of Khan hearkened us back to days of old, which was what I believe their intent to have been, finding Star Trek's roots, returning to the base formula, after an awkward attempt to reinvent it. Their characters in TMP seemed more stoic or strictly business than we'd come to expect. It never even felt like the same people to me, just the same faces

And then, years later, when I saw how TNG settled into its rhythm, I began to notice how it, in many ways, echoed the tone of TMP more than TOS. Hell, they even use the same Goldsmith theme for both. Plus there's the fact that TMP was a reworked script for the Phase II pilot, which while that show never got produced, many of its elements found their way into TNG. So in a weird way, I consider TMP the birth of the next generation of Star Trek. However, most people weren't ready for that at the time. They still wanted the continuation of the first thing, & in a way Roddenberry had moved on & wanted to evolve it into the direction that would eventually become TNG, hence why he didn't jive well with much of what came after TMP, until he began reworking his show into what would become TNG

I dunno, maybe I'm crazy, but it always read like that to me

I know of at least one wag who commented dryly, "The best TNG movie was 'The Motion Picture'." I can totally understand what he means.

 

[Mojochi]

Interesting you should say that about Shatner's performance in TWOK, because Nicholas Meyer has talked about how he had to do enough takes to tire Shatner out to the point that he stopped trying to play it big and just did it more naturally, which was what Meyer wanted. The "KHAAAAANNN!!!" moment is agonizingly over-the-top, of course, but otherwise, Shatner's relatively su

Oh, & I certainly see that effect in it too. Ultimately, it's the story & dialog that lent itself to the over the top Shat, more than TMP ever did. I suspect that Shat felt like a pig in shit & couldn't help but wallow in it. So I'm sure Meyer did have to rein him in quite a bit. I just think TMP never even provided anything close to as fertile a landscape for Shat to play in, the way that TWoK did. TWoK is a Kirk-centric story. TMP isn't

 

[Christopher]

Ultimately, it's the story & dialog that lent itself to the over the top Shat, more than TMP ever did.

I see what you mean. I find TWOK a ludicrously melodramatic movie.

TWoK is a Kirk-centric story. TMP isn't

The first half of TMP is very Kirk-centric; it's about his obsession with regaining command and clashing with Decker, and finally learning the humility he needs to step back and trust his team and thereby be a better captain. But in the second half it shifts gears and becomes a Spock-centric story. It's kind of a 2-parter in one package.

 

[Ralphis]

I've used this example about a half-billion times here, but the TNG episode Parallels does reveal that there is literally a multiverse that exists within Star Trek consisting of an infinite number of realities. So... yeah... technically, the TWOK could be a separate universe.

But I think a much easier explanation is to just think of Starfleet as a hybrid space agency/space military armada. Sometimes they're doing research and exploration, and sometimes they're serving as military. It depends on the situation.

And while I know we didn't see them on screen, there's no reason there couldn't have been uniform variants in the TWOK era that were a little less militaristic and more akin to the TOS and TMP uniforms.