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Star Trek Generations at 20 (November 18, 1994)

The version in the movie is definitely superior to the "shot in the back" version.

I know this places me squarely in the minority, but I've always been okay with the way Kirk dies. I know most people wanted it to be big, grand and epic, but that almost feels like a cliche to me. It's too obvious and I think I would have been rolling my eyes at a huge, operatic, "hero's death".

To me, Kirk's death humanizes him. I liken it to Batman (probably my favorite fictional hero): I've always felt that when Batman finally meets his end, it's not going to be in an epic battle with the Joker or carting off a nuclear bomb. When he dies, it will probably be in some tiny Gotham alley, at the end of some random junkie's knife. Because a big part of being a hero is beating the odds. Kirk is like that. A hero like Kirk doesn't charge into danger without knowing that he's gambling with his life, but he does it anyway. He hopes he will survive, but he knows he may very well not, and he knows that one day he's going to lose that bet. The fact that the almighty James T. Kirk can die from something so simple, the way you or I could, makes him more human. And to me it underlines his heroism.

I also know that the day Batman dies, he'll do so saving someone else. James T. Kirk died saving the lives of 230 million people that he had never laid eyes on. I'd call that a pretty good exit for a legendary hero.
 
Anybody here remember this deleted sequence or at least reading details about it? Another interesting bit that's mostly just exposition, but it would have been interesting to leave it in the final edit of the movie if just for the bits involving Data.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEaR1rkhy00[/yt]
 
James T. Kirk died saving the lives of 230 million people that he had never laid eyes on. I'd call that a pretty good exit for a legendary hero.

I agree so I don't see the anger in how Kirk died. And he did die, he didn't come back in the next movie. And I too think the second ending had more punch to it.
 
I for one was never upset or angry. I didn't think his death was as memorable or well-written as they could have made it, but like I said above it's a far better death scene than the really crappy "Soran Shoots Kirk in the Back" sequence that was originally filmed and then voted down by test audiences. In retrospect Kirk saved 230 million innocent humanoid inhabitants on a neighboring planet along with over a thousand people aboard the Enterprise-D, so that seems pretty noble even if it wasn't as flashy or exciting as some of us would have preferred (myself included).

Kirk got to save a world (and an Enterprise) one last time. He was pretty good at that.
 
I watched both Generations and First Contact over the weekend. FC was less impressive than I remembered it. It was ... okay. GEN was a lot better than I thought it would be. The first forty minutes are great, and the rest is overall pretty good.

I think accepting and getting over the fact that it's not exactly what we want or fantasise about helps us to enjoy what's actually there:
The cinematography and music are great. The time they allow between Kirk's first "death" and his reappearance is quite bold in dramatic terms. Stewart and Shatner are both really effective in the death scene. And there is thankfully little of the sanctimoniousness I feel TNG sometimes suffers from.
My only real peeves now are the crummy matt-painting showing the crashed saucer's debris trail, and Shatner showing off his dressage skills.


Here's a quote from Nimoy
The cameo in Generations was not about the Spock character. It was just somebody named Spock saying some lines that had nothing to do with Spock. It wasn’t about the character at all.
And yet GEN does give nice character moments to Chekov and Scotty, with Chekov introducing Sulu Jr to Kirk, and Scotty's priceless "Is there something wrong with your chair?" line. So either there was more to the part than Nimoy noticed, or the script was further refined after he rejected it? I think it's more likely he was unhappy with being merely a walk-on part, whereas Shatner got to be essential to the plot. If it hadn't been for Guinan, he possibly might have been slotted into that part of the story...
 
I watched both Generations and First Contact over the weekend. FC was less impressive than I remembered it. It was ... okay. GEN was a lot better than I thought it would be. The first forty minutes are great, and the rest is overall pretty good.

I think accepting and getting over the fact that it's not exactly what we want or fantasise about helps us to enjoy what's actually there:
The cinematography and music are great. The time they allow between Kirk's first "death" and his reappearance is quite bold in dramatic terms. Stewart and Shatner are both really effective in the death scene. And there is thankfully little of the sanctimoniousness I feel TNG sometimes suffers from.
My only real peeves now are the crummy matt-painting showing the crashed saucer's debris trail, and Shatner showing off his dressage skills.


Here's a quote from Nimoy
The cameo in Generations was not about the Spock character. It was just somebody named Spock saying some lines that had nothing to do with Spock. It wasn’t about the character at all.
And yet GEN does give nice character moments to Chekov and Scotty, with Chekov introducing Sulu Jr to Kirk, and Scotty's priceless "Is there something wrong with your chair?" line. So either there was more to the part than Nimoy noticed, or the script was further refined after he rejected it? I think it's more likely he was unhappy with being merely a walk-on part, whereas Shatner got to be essential to the plot. If it hadn't been for Guinan, he possibly might have been slotted into that part of the story...

They mixed the lines McCoy and Spock would've had when they were given to Scotty and Chekov, but it's not a hard game to figure out for whom the lines were originally intended. It was rewritten a bit, as Spock would've been more monotonic with hints at frustration when McCoy thinks a bird is Kirk, but that was still a Spock line tweaked for Scotty. The remark about Kirk running a decathlon across the galaxy was Scotty's, too, but probably meant for McCoy. Chekov reminding Kirk he missed his target a bit would've been pure Spock.

It's pretty easy to hear McCoy give that line about the chair. It would be exactly what he'd say in a situation like that. A couple of other lines Scotty gives on E-B, like "Brought a tear to my eye," after Kirk tells them to take the ship out, and the line about Kirk finding retirement a bit lonely are also pure McCoy. Kirk's response to the lines are what he'd have done in response to McCoy, too. McCoy could've introduced him to Sulu's daughter, maybe even saying he delivered her (I don't know).

When Nimoy believed there was nothing of real substance to the scenes, I don't think he really meant it wasn't written for Spock or McCoy. It's just that they may have been nice character moments, but they were not part of the story in any way. His point was the purpose they had to serve in the scenes could've been fulfilled by any of the others -- and that was kind of proven Scotty and Chekov did the scenes with few changes in the lines.
 
I really hated that the Nexus showed that both Picard and Kirk's greatest wish was to settle down and have a family? What?

Both of those guys had plenty of opportunity for that but always turned it down in favour of having the best darn job in the universe.
I'm not a big TNG fan but was Picard only in command out of duty to the Federation? Was his secret desire to settle down but he thought Starfleet couldn't do without him?

And Kirk was even less likely to want a life on the farm. Even in within GEN Kirk was itching to get in the centre seat again and he told Picard never to give up command. Yet we are supposed to think that all Kirk really wanted ever to do was to give up Starfleet to be with Antonia

This is one part of the movie that actually makes sense. The nexus was not fulfilling Kirk and Picard's wildest dreams, it was showing the the path they did not take, what might have been. Picard especially was mindful of the family he never had as he mourned for his brother and nephew. Both captains had spent many years living their dreams, sittin gin the center seat of a starship. In the nexus, they had a chance to see the other side (and learn that the grass is not greener).

...

I was starting to think I was the only one who got that.

So the Nexus showed kirk and Picard the path not taken but Soran the path he really wanted to take - to have his fake family restored.
So the Nexus works differently for different people.
Maybe some people get their greatest fear realised. :eek:

And Guinan says the Nexus gives you joy and so much contentment you'd never want to leave. I didn't see great joy in Kirk's fantasy or Picards. I can see Kirk's fate being Shatner's contentment fantasy - its his barn, his horse but I cannot see it being Kirks.

If it was supposed to be the road not travelled or various alternative fantasies like in "The Cage" then maybe Guinan should have explained that. Otherwise Kirk's and Picards Nexus life looks like something they'd want to run away from instead of run to. To me its as lame as Kirk's death scene.
 
Picard doesn't strike me as being regretful of his being career-minded, *BUT* (and this is a big "but"), I can see how he may have experienced some doubts with the tragic deaths of his brother and nephew. So I have no qualms about this plot point.

I can imagine Kirk's "Nexus" being aboard the Enterprise bridge, not at a mountainside slice of heaven. Still, he seemed to be mirroring Picard as having doubts about his life choices. For Kirk, I think it was retiring from Starfleet to come home...to what? Nothing and nobody.

It takes a little more effort to think of why Kirk would have those doubts compared to Picard, who has a more obvious tragedy in his life in the script.
 
And yet GEN does give nice character moments to Chekov and Scotty, with Chekov introducing Sulu Jr to Kirk, and Scotty's priceless "Is there something wrong with your chair?" line.
It's pretty easy to hear McCoy give that line about the chair. It would be exactly what he'd say in a situation like that. A couple of other lines Scotty gives on E-B, like "Brought a tear to my eye," after Kirk tells them to take the ship out, and the line about Kirk finding retirement a bit lonely are also pure McCoy. Kirk's response to the lines are what he'd have done in response to McCoy, too. McCoy could've introduced him to Sulu's daughter, maybe even saying he delivered her (I don't know).

Let me guess - you're a huge McCoy fan? :D
 
This is one part of the movie that actually makes sense. The nexus was not fulfilling Kirk and Picard's wildest dreams, it was showing the the path they did not take, what might have been. Picard especially was mindful of the family he never had as he mourned for his brother and nephew. Both captains had spent many years living their dreams, sittin gin the center seat of a starship. In the nexus, they had a chance to see the other side (and learn that the grass is not greener).

...

I was starting to think I was the only one who got that.

So the Nexus showed kirk and Picard the path not taken but Soran the path he really wanted to take - to have his fake family restored.
So the Nexus works differently for different people.
Maybe some people get their greatest fear realised. :eek:

And Guinan says the Nexus gives you joy and so much contentment you'd never want to leave. I didn't see great joy in Kirk's fantasy or Picards. I can see Kirk's fate being Shatner's contentment fantasy - its his barn, his horse but I cannot see it being Kirks.

If it was supposed to be the road not travelled or various alternative fantasies like in "The Cage" then maybe Guinan should have explained that. Otherwise Kirk's and Picards Nexus life looks like something they'd want to run away from instead of run to. To me its as lame as Kirk's death scene.

Yep. Didn't seem like very exciting fantasies for either of them. Mundane, really. Quiet. Can't see either of them preferring that. Even with a family, I'd think Picard would want a more active lifestyle. I could've seen him with his family playing soccer together or on a beach enjoying the surf, or even on an archaeological dig together. Instead, he seemed to go straight to the slippers and pipe, so to speak.

And the nexus must've been different things to different people. Kirk was reliving a moment from his real life, having a chance to go back and take a different path at a crossroads. Picard's family was pure fantasy and not based on a real "what if" moment in his life.

The horse was definitely Shatner's fantasy. After all, he was riding his personal horse. I remember him proudly saying in an interview that was why he was so easily able to make the horse sidle up to Stewart's before the two enter into the decisive discussion about leaving the nexus. He said he didn't think he could've done that as well with just any horse.
 
And yet GEN does give nice character moments to Chekov and Scotty, with Chekov introducing Sulu Jr to Kirk, and Scotty's priceless "Is there something wrong with your chair?" line.
It's pretty easy to hear McCoy give that line about the chair. It would be exactly what he'd say in a situation like that. A couple of other lines Scotty gives on E-B, like "Brought a tear to my eye," after Kirk tells them to take the ship out, and the line about Kirk finding retirement a bit lonely are also pure McCoy. Kirk's response to the lines are what he'd have done in response to McCoy, too. McCoy could've introduced him to Sulu's daughter, maybe even saying he delivered her (I don't know).

Let me guess - you're a huge McCoy fan? :D

Pardon the double post.

Well, Kirk was my favorite, but I think McCoy was given some of the best one-liners in all of Trek and I appreciate well done sarcasm. I also enjoyed the character because he was no diplomat -- you knew how he felt, he always blunt and sincere.
 
^ I thought the chair line was appropriate to Scott, given that his duties had probably included keeping the captain comfortably seated (i.e. fixing his chair). It's not a duty you'd entrust to just any ensign.

Even with a family, I'd think Picard would want a more active lifestyle. I could've seen him with his family playing soccer together or on a beach enjoying the surf, or even on an archaeological dig together. Instead, he seemed to go straight to the slippers and pipe, so to speak.
I don't know if Picard was that action-oriented a character (despite Stewart campaigning for more action) - he always seemed more cerebral, living in books and fascinated with the past, which gave him the advantage of an historical perspective on life. That said, his frilly Dickensian fantasy home-life was certainly an extreme choice, and all those plummy accents made me suspect that PERHAPS PICARD WAS NOT FRENCH AT ALL!
;)

BTW, for some reason I always expect his wife to be played by Emma Thompson.
 
I watched both Generations and First Contact over the weekend. FC was less impressive than I remembered it. It was ... okay. GEN was a lot better than I thought it would be. The first forty minutes are great, and the rest is overall pretty good.

I've done the same recently, and I hold the same view also. Generations with a better last act would have been a really excellent Trek movie. FC, bar a couple of scenes is getting worse with age every time I watch it. I still like it but some of the sets are starting to look seriously crummy, and I don't think the visuals are as nice as Generations either.
 
Star Trek Generations: a movie I hated instantly upon first viewing, took years and multiple viewings to begin to appreciate at least parts of it, and to this day, I simultaneously love AND hate it! I remember seeing it when it was released. I was so stoked about the idea of a TOS/TNG crossover film, with so many possibilities. I was spoiler free, so I walked into the film cold, not knowing what to expect. I remember months before seeing it, trying to imagine how they would pull off the film.

Was it going to be a time travel movie, somewhat like Yesterday's Enterprise? At that point, Trek hadn't beaten us over the head with the time travel trope to a blood pulp, so I was really open to that. How I hoped to finally see the Enterprise-A on screen with the Enterprise-D, side by side!

Or was it going to be something along the lines where an extremely aged Kirk visits the Enterprise-D for the first time, and gets rejuvenated and de-aged, somehow, for one last adventure? After all, there was precedents for that: you had Commodore April de-aged in the Counterclock Incident, and then you had Admiral Jameson from Too Short a Season. That episode, I always thought of as an episode the writers had Kirk in mind for the Jameson role, in fact Jameson could have been a stand in for Kirk, finally facing the consequences of his actions for arming a society like he did in A Private Little War.

So, when I did see it in theaters, after the movie, I was just left stupefied. I left with thinking "what the fuck was that?!" Visually, for its time, it was a beautiful film. And it was nice to see the cast and the E-D on the big screen. But I want to talk about the stuff that did, and still does bother me about Generations.

The death of Robert and Rene Picard. OK, I know WHY this is done, as in later on in the movie, we have to have a reason for Picard not wanting to leave the Nexus. But burning alive in a barn in the 24th century? Not to mention after seeing both characters after such a touching episode as family? What a horrible way to kill off these characters, not to mention the buzz kill of seeing Picard just weep. Sure, men can weep like that, but they should have saved a scene like that for an episode of TNG, not the very first TNG feature film!

Destroying Data's character with the emotion chip: Now, we TNG fans knew there would be a day where Data would finally get emotions. That was the natural progression of the character, IMHO. But the way it was done in this film, and the cheesiness of the scenes is almost unconscionable. Fortunately, this was rectified with FC, where its revealed Data can simply turn off the emotion chip.

Lursa and B'etor:

TNG had some memorable recurring characters, and for me two of the best were Lursa and B'etor. But this film really just relegates them to comic relief, and then kills them off. I think given how hum drum a film Insurection was, particularly how much I just couldn't stand the Son'a as villains, I think saving Lursa and B'etor for a later film, would have been a lot better.

The Destruction of the Enterprise-D:

Again, I know WHY it was done: so that we would get an Enterprise-E in the next film. And sure, the movie trailer really telegraphs its destruction, but then again, I think there was half a dozen times where TNG had an episode where the Enterprise is destroyed, and then restored by the reset button. SO, when they actually did destroy it, it was certainly a WTF moment for me. And it was done so unceremoniously, too. I think others here have compared\contrasted the E-D's destruction to the TSFS destruction of the 1701 at length, but in that film, if 1701 was going to go out, it went out with style, IMHO. Turning defeat and death into a fighting chance to live. None of that happened with Generations. In fact, Picard wasn't even on the bridge at the time. While I can't really fault Riker or Geordi for that matter, there was just this smug air about the crew that screams "We are in a Galaxy class ship. We are unbeatable," that makes them all look like amateurs when E-D is destroyed.

The Death of Kirk:
For me, this is the most egregious, and offensive thing about Generations! Indeed, this is one of the worst events of Star Trek history. Why Shatner even agreed to this is beyond me. Now, it's not necessarily that Kirk died in of itself, because if it had been done in a way that wasn't so irreverently and sloppy, I MIGHT have been on board. In fact, Star Trek 5 sort of sets up Kirk's death by the scene where Kirk mentions he knows he'll die alone. But its the way Kirk was handled throughout the entire film of Generations, topped off with falling off a mountain in a steel bridge. I mean really? All I could think of was Wile E. Coyote! It was just flat out LAME! And I still haven't accepted Kirk's death. I want to throw something at the screen to this day whenever I rewatch that scene. And what is up with Picard burying Kirk on some no-name planet, under a bunch of rocks on some lone hill top, with only Picard in attendance? Doesn't one of starfleet's most celebrated heroes deserve a large funeral to honor him? At that point, we knew Spock, Scotty, and McCoy were still alive, and possibly the rest of the crew. Wouldn't they have wanted to finally have a funeral for their old friend? Sure, they probably had one after the Enterprise-B disaster, but there was no body. Also, Kirk supposedly died saving billions, as well as the entire crew of the Enterprise-D. He deserved a better funeral than that.

Not too many people seemed to like the original ending where Soran shoots Kirk in the back and he dies in Picard's arms, and I have to agree. While the crushed-under-a-metal-bridge death scene wasn't the death most of us had envisioned for Captain Kirk over the years and decades and it wasn't exactly the best idea they could have come up with, I think it still works better than the original ending.

Getting shot in the back by the villain right after boasting that "the 24th century's not so tough" just didn't look or feel right, although it led to the common misconception that Soran himself directly killed James T. Kirk instead of - as in the altered ending that's in the final movie - creating the situation in which Kirk bravely sacrifices himself to help save the day. Neither death is what most fans wanted, but if I had to pick one it'd be the bridge, no hesistation or question about it.
Really, something akin to Kirk's first "death," when he was lost in the Nexus aboard the Enterprise-B, and assumed dead with no body and his death left ambiguous, would have worked far, far better.
 
Really, something akin to Kirk's first "death" when he was lost in the Nexus aboard the Enterprise-B, and assumed dead with no body and his death left ambiguous, would have worked far, far better.

I know it runs contrary to the marketing guy's wet dream that is the headline "The Generations Meet!", but I've come to the conclusion that one of the biggest flaws in Generations is the requirement to get Kirk and Picard together in the final act. It unbalances the story. I'd have been completely fine with the idea of keeping the two segments (1701-B and 1701-D) completely seperate, but linked only through the thematic devices of the Nexus, Guinan and Soran. I think it would've been a stronger movie for having the TNG sections be a sort of thematic sequel to the earlier TOS sections, without them actually cross-pollinating with each other. What really takes a harpoon to the movie's momentum IMO is the moment we put Picard in the Nexus and have to jump through hoops on a flimsy pretense to introduce Kirk into the denouement, just so the Paramount marketing guys can try and sell the idea of it being an epic "meeting of the Captains".

But maybe audiences at the time would've been hacked off to go a movie starring both captains and not had them meet. Who knows? I do wonder if it would've made more a stronger movie in hindsight, though. :)
 
^That strikes me as one of those ideas that Trek fans would have appreciated, but so-called "mainstream" fans would have complained about.
 
Really, something akin to Kirk's first "death" when he was lost in the Nexus aboard the Enterprise-B, and assumed dead with no body and his death left ambiguous, would have worked far, far better.

I know it runs contrary to the marketing guy's wet dream that is the headline "The Generations Meet!", but I've come to the conclusion that one of the biggest flaws in Generations is the requirement to get Kirk and Picard together in the final act. It unbalances the story. I'd have been completely fine with the idea of keeping the two segments (1701-B and 1701-D) completely seperate, but linked only through the thematic devices of the Nexus, Guinan and Soran. I think it would've been a stronger movie for having the TNG sections be a sort of thematic sequel to the earlier TOS sections, without them actually cross-pollinating with each other. What really takes a harpoon to the movie's momentum IMO is the moment we put Picard in the Nexus and have to jump through hoops on a flimsy pretense to introduce Kirk into the denouement, just so the Paramount marketing guys can try and sell the idea of it being an epic "meeting of the Captains".

But maybe audiences at the time would've been hacked off to go a movie starring both captains and not had them meet. Who knows? I do wonder if it would've made more a stronger movie in hindsight, though. :)

Actually, that would have been a really good idea. I totally agree with you regarding basically the point from which Picard entered the Nexus, on. Didn't Soran also go into the Nexus? Yet we never saw him in it. And wasn't a time paradox created when Picard and Kirk return to the universe? Why isn't there two Picards? The whole thing just was a mess.

If they were going to meet, maybe both ships (Enterpirse B and Enterprise D)could have been pulled into the Nexus towards the end of the movie, where the captains only meet via video screen, much like Kirk and Khan never meet in person in TWOK. The two ships work together to escape the Nexus, and go back to their original times, fixing the problem, sort of like All Good Things. At that point, I could see where Kirk is lost in the Nexus to free the Enterprise-B (and fulfilling what Picard knows as "history:" Kirk's disappearance/death), with Kirk's death left ambiguous.
 
The J.M. Dillard novelization of the movie depicted Soran's version of the Nexus where he was reunited with his wife and children who'd been killed in the Borg attack on their homeworld, but they really should have incorporated at least a little bit of that into the actual film so that Soran's character would have had more dimension and texture. The scene where Picard confronts him with their deaths and the Borg being responsible for it was okay, but actually seeing a glimpse of that version of the Nexus would have been better and given the audience more of an understanding of why Soran was willing to put so many innocent lives at risk to get back inside.

Just like with Star Trek V, the novelization smooths out more than a few of the film's rougher and more annoying edges, but the studio wanted certain things left out for the sake of a better-paced and more exciting movie and/or dictated a running time so the directors had to decide what wasn't worth leaving in or even bothering to film in the first place.

An extra one or two minutes' worth of another Nexus sequence wouldn't have made a big difference to the running time, but apparently the creators had a different idea.
 
I'd change the Nexus from being an actual gateway to another dimension, to instead being a standard space anomaly that simply destroys things in it's path -- but which Soran has somehow mistakenly become convinced is an entry-way to a fantasy land and is determined to bring it to him. The impetus is therefore on the Enterprise crew stopping this mad man from destroying civilisations in what is ultimately a futile quest.

Accordingly, the prologue on the Enterprise-B stays as it is, with Kirk saving the ship and losing his life. A great heroic end, but he doesn't survive inside the Nexus, and crucially, he doesn't reappear later in the film. His scenes are, however, crucial to the trust of the TNG plot, forming an important backstory for the rest of the movie.

I guess under this scenario Soran would have shades of Sybok: a villain with a tragic belief in something that simply isn't true, but who is determined to fulfil his wish fantasy at any cost, despite all rational evidence to the contrary.
 
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