Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUniverse?

[Mr. Crane]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

I don't understand this omnipotent "logic of the Franchise" you speak of... where is it ever explicitly stated that Enterprise happens in the "Prime Universe"?

Bad logic, there - no one ever thought of the "Prime Universe" versus the "Abrams Universe" until this movie was made - and in fact, the very term "Prime Universe" has never been explicitly mentioned. The writers may have used it as shorthand when talking about the movie, or fans may have coined it, but the term doesn't appear in the movie. Nimoy is simply credited as "Spock Prime" at the end.

There is evidence that it could happen in an alternate reality, like the new alternate reality...

Nope, it was never the intention of the studio or the Trek producers to do a series about an "alternate universe," and the whole idea that changing the past causes the creation of a new "alternate universe" rather than altering the "real" one has no significant precedent in Trek's treatment of time travel prior to the new film.

The whole notion really exists only as a fannish attempt to make everything fit together perfectly, and nothing about Star Trek has ever fit together perfectly - it started to contradict itself with the second episode made.

Of course, since it's all made up and there's neither any final word or any right answer, every viewer can believe whatever they like and be right.

...Yet the TNG episode "Parallels" promoted the idea that there are tons and tons of Quantum realities, long before the ENT series came along. So a fan of the show could argue that the ENT series takes place in one of these alternate realities, just like the new movie. The temporal cold war could have really messed with time-space...

 

[FlapJoy]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

The temporal cold war could have really messed with time-space...

When I first saw the arc plot line in Enterprise about the temporal cold war, I thought the series finale might end with Archer's Enterprise erased from history as a sacrifice to save the universe somehow. But it also made for a great plot device, in that, anything could happen and the future was not dictated by the other Trek series' that came before depicting later eras. I wish they'd done more with that.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

Nope, it was never the intention of the studio or the Trek producers to do a series about an "alternate universe," and the whole idea that changing the past causes the creation of a new "alternate universe" rather than altering the "real" one has no significant precedent in Trek's treatment of time travel prior to the new film.

What about the event's that occured in "Yesterday's Enterprise"? Wasn't there 3 difference universes or timelines in that episode?

1) The timeline that started the show. This was the 'regular universe'
2) The timeline that the rift cause i.e the universe/timeline in which the Enterprise C didn't save the Klingons.
3) The timeline that existed after Tasha Yar from timeline had gone back with the Enterprise C. Though this timeline was very similar to timeline 1 it was different because Guinan could remember Tasha somehow. Guinan was aware that charnges had occured.

 

[KingstonTrekker]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

Like it or love it, Star Trek: Enterprise is part of the Prime Universe.

However, the Prime Universe's timeline was altered during the events of First Contact, which resulted in changes post-2063 which were reflected on-screen in Enterprise (the more "modern" look of the ship, the more advanced level of technology featured, etc.) These changes were even reflected in the second season episode that featured the Borg ("Regeneration"). It could be argued that the Temporal Cold War, featured throughout Enterprise, brought additional changes to the Prime Universe timeline.

The Ambramsverse was created, 70-80ish years after Enterprise, when the Narada arrived in the past and destroyed the USS Kelvin. This created the Abramsverse (breaking away from the Prime Universe timeline which the film's writers have insisted still exists) and accelerated the advancement in technology seen in Enterprise, to the extent that the NCC-1701 is MUCH more advanced than the ship Kirk commanded in the Prime Universe Timeline.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

...Yet the TNG episode "Parallels" promoted the idea that there are tons and tons of Quantum realities, long before the ENT series came along.

None of which were suggested to have "branched off" from the "main reality."

So a fan of the show could argue that the ENT series takes place in one of these alternate realities...

A fan of the show could argue that Jean Luc Picard was actually green, but took a great deal of care to always apply durable makeup that gave him a more familiar human skin tone. Mind you, it's silly and more importantly it was never the intention of anyone connected with the show to suggest that - which is just as true of the proposal that Enterprise doesn't take place in the same "universe" with the other four Trek series.

 

[Tuvok]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

Star Trek Enterprise exists in both as in NuTrek Scotty makes a reference about Archers prized Beagle.

But that Archer wasn't neccessarily Jonathan Archer. For example, Enterprise Archer might have had a son /or grandson who became an admiral and this son/grandson might have also loved beagles (having grown up with them).


Edited to add - because Jonathon Archer was born in 2111 and Montegomery Scott was not born until 2222 (111 years later) I think in all likelihood Scott was referring to another member of the Archer family.

Gotta agree that it might not be the same Jonathan Archer anymore.

If you tak ' These are the Voyagers' as Canon then the Enterprise is part of Primeverse.

In the Primeverse the Future shaped the past ( Enterprise) due to the Time War. The Klingon ends up on Earth and T'pol ends up on the Enterprise on the mission to return him home.

HOWEVER

The Nu-trek timeline does not include the Primeverse future. The Primeverse future does not exist so it does not include a war in the past ( Enterprise). Without the Timewar who knows maybe T'pol does not end up on the Enterprise as the Klingon is not chased by Suliban on behest of Future man.

Diffrent Enterprise and diffrent version of Archer.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

I think the problem is, the term "prime universe" is a misnomer and non-sequitur because if we accept the premise of the producers of the new movie, that there are multiple parallel/alternate universe, then there is no such thing as a "prime universe" they all have equal validity! In other words, there never was just one "true" time line because, as mentioned above, all instances of time travel have created alternate time lines. This is at odds with the way it used to be portrayed, in which there was just one time line that had to be protected and/or corrected at all cost. As for 'Enterpise' not taking place in the same time continuity as some of the other series/episodes, this is completly consistant with the multiple timeline/universes POV and is a completly valid stance.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

I think the problem is, the term "prime universe" is a misnomer and non-sequitur because if we accept the premise of the producers of the new movie, that there are multiple parallel/alternate universe, then there is no such thing as a "prime universe" they all have equal validity! In other words, there never was just one "true" time line because, as mentioned above, all instances of time travel have created alternate time lines. This is at odds with the way it used to be portrayed, in which there was just one time line that had to be protected and/or corrected at all cost. As for 'Enterpise' not taking place in the same time continuity as some of the other series/episodes, this is completly consistant with the multiple timeline/universes POV and is a completly valid stance.

The use of "Prime" as a designation has nothing at all to do with validity; it's only a reference point: "Prime", because it is the first Trek timeline to which we were exposed. Most of Trek could be thought of as being contained within timeline Tʹ (T prime). The Mirror Universe, then, could be timeline Tʺ (T double prime), the nuVerse/JJ-verse/Abramsverse T triple prime, etc. It's the sort of designation used in mathematics to distinguish between like things, not an assessment of value or validity.

The same would apply for Spock Prime (Sʹ) and Young Spock (Sʺ).

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

Nope, it was never the intention of the studio or the Trek producers to do a series about an "alternate universe," and the whole idea that changing the past causes the creation of a new "alternate universe" rather than altering the "real" one has no significant precedent in Trek's treatment of time travel prior to the new film.

What about the event's that occured in "Yesterday's Enterprise"? Wasn't there 3 difference universes or timelines in that episode?

There's no suggestion that the "War Universe" continued to exist as an independent or alternate reality to the main "Trek Universe." It was a closed loop, same as the alternate history that transpired when McCoy saved Edith Keeler and was "corrected" when Kirk prevented him from doing so.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

I think the problem is, the term "prime universe" is a misnomer and non-sequitur because if we accept the premise of the producers of the new movie, that there are multiple parallel/alternate universe, then there is no such thing as a "prime universe" they all have equal validity! In other words, there never was just one "true" time line because, as mentioned above, all instances of time travel have created alternate time lines. This is at odds with the way it used to be portrayed, in which there was just one time line that had to be protected and/or corrected at all cost. As for 'Enterpise' not taking place in the same time continuity as some of the other series/episodes, this is completly consistant with the multiple timeline/universes POV and is a completly valid stance.

The use of "Prime" as a designation has nothing at all to do with validity; it's only a reference point: "Prime", because it is the first Trek timeline to which we were exposed. Most of Trek could be thought of as being contained within timeline Tʹ (T prime). The Mirror Universe, then, could be timeline Tʺ (T double prime), the nuVerse/JJ-verse/Abramsverse T triple prime, etc. It's the sort of designation used in mathematics to distinguish between like things, not an assessment of value or validity.

The same would apply for Spock Prime (Sʹ) and Young Spock (Sʺ).

I think you're missing my point? I wasn't advocating the position that "prime" was an assessment of value, I was saying that (judging from all the above) that's the way fans tend to think of it, because of the usual meaning of the word, therefore it isn't perhaps the best -as you say- designation, to differentiate the time lines, precisely because it leads to this sort of confusion. I would much prefer something along the lines you suggest as alternatives, since my point was, that there is no preferential time line as the word "prime" would suggest. If all we wanted was to distinguish "the first Trek timeline to which we were exposed" then all we have to do is continue what we've been doing and call it "TOS" as oposed to "ST XI" etc., but that isn't what we're doing here is it? No, because were talking about the "in universe" (inter-universe?) time lines here, not distinguishing the different fictional TV shows/movies.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

I think you're missing my point?

It wouldn't be the first time I've misread something. I think I see now what you were getting at: the possibility that the meaning of "prime" could be confused, and that the choice of another designation or set of designations might have avoided confusion. Granted.

In-universe, however, I don't think anything has gone much farther than the supposition of an "alternate reality", a branching of a single timeline into two divergent ones, triggered by the intrusion of Narada and crew and the subsequent (in the "alternate" branch) destruction of the Kelvin, etc. Backing away and taking a larger view, one would suppose that all timelines would be likely to display similar types of branching and divergence (and convergences, too?) until it begins to resemble a giant road map of timelines. (I recall a passage from Asimov's Second Foundation which describes segments of a similarly-complex road map of psychohistorical probabilities and resolutions which might look a lot like the map of timelines. A good zoom function would be crucial for accurate reading.) As yet, we've seen only a tiny fraction of the total number of possible timelines which are implied, but one would suppose that anyone able to view and study them all would have to invent some sort of numbering or indexing scheme like the ones for the Interstate highway system or the Library of Congress catalog (only much more complicated) in order to keep it all straight.

 

[ncc74302]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

I like the idea, and I think maybe everything changed in First Contact, I've floated this theory around TrekBBS:

---The evidence that gives credence to this theory is as follows: If you notice Captain Picard's wall of ships named Enterprise we see no representation of Archer’s NX-01 Enterprise, even though we see the Space Shuttle and the Aircraft Carrier Enterprise. (I know ST:Enterprise wasn’t on the air yet, ok? Stick with me) -So what if when Picard and the gang go back to protect Cochran’s first warp flight from the borg; Cochran, to honor his friends from the future and their gallant ship, decrees that the first warp 5 ship (when it’s built 100 some years later) be called Enterprise, when perhaps it was not initially christened that name in the original timeline and didn't appear on Picard’s wall of ships !! Another interesting note is that First Contact is the movie that depicts Picard smashing all his little gold ships in a rage against the machines (Borg frustration) perhaps as a symbolic statement that everything can change, including Enterprises legacy… giving further evidence that timelines can be, and have been, altered many times. Nothing is set in stone -or shiny gold plastic.---

You know, I personally rather like that theory, that the events of First Contact caused the alternate timeline that created the Enterprise inconsistencies. Very clever.

 

[Mr. Crane]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

...Yet the TNG episode "Parallels" promoted the idea that there are tons and tons of Quantum realities, long before the ENT series came along.

None of which were suggested to have "branched off" from the "main reality."

So a fan of the show could argue that the ENT series takes place in one of these alternate realities...

A fan of the show could argue that Jean Luc Picard was actually green, but took a great deal of care to always apply durable makeup that gave him a more familiar human skin tone. Mind you, it's silly and more importantly it was never the intention of anyone connected with the show to suggest that - which is just as true of the proposal that Enterprise doesn't take place in the same "universe" with the other four Trek series.

I agree, that "Picard is actually green" example is a far-fetched idea, and I certainly wasn't suggesting the producers intended to deliberately place Star Trek: Enterprise in an alternate reality from the original series and subsequent series. What I was suggesting was that a viewer could certainly decide that the Enterprise series takes place in an alternate reality from the other Trek TV series, since it contradicts some of the history, tech, etc established in those prior series. People have been debating the inconsistencies of Enterprise with the TOS, canon, and fanon since it aired. However, Enterprise jives perfectly with the New Star Trek movie, which is set in an alternate reality from the original series and its spinoffs. Therefore, I can see some Trek fans deciding in their minds to decide, in their "personal chronologies of Trek" to place Enterprise as a prequel to the movie, rather than the original series. Why try to fit a puzzle piece into a picture when all of its parts don't fit without forcing them into place?

Frankly, I don't think this idea is, as you claim "silly". I think it is quite logical, from the perspective I'm coming from. I don't think differing perspectives should be dismissed as "silly" just because they don't jive with the majority of opinions, perhaps...

 

[SonicRanger]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

... Mind you, it's silly and more importantly it was never the intention of anyone connected with the show to suggest that - which is just as true of the proposal that Enterprise doesn't take place in the same "universe" with the other four Trek series.

I don't think that is necessarily true.

The incorporation of the Temporal Cold War, which may or may not have also included the Sphere Builders from the future, for three years in the series would suggest that TPTB at the very least entertained the idea that Enterprise existed in an entirely different timeline.

Only years later did the fanwanky Season 4, which brought in a new show runner, and the series finale firmly suggest that this was the same timeline. (The "future" seen in TATV could, of course, be argued to be altered because it doesn't fit too well into "The Pegasus" as we saw it originally.)

Besides, I think at least once Braga said that Enterprise existed in a post-First Contact timeline. I'll have to see if I can find that.

 

[Cyrus]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

Besides, I think at least once Braga said that Enterprise existed in a post-First Contact timeline. I'll have to see if I can find that.

In one interview Braga, while trying to explain the ENT Borg episode, made some confusing statements that some fans interpreted as implying that ENT was in an alternate timeline. But in a followup interview when he was asked specifically about it he said that ENT was in the same timeline as all the other Trek series.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

Well, if Enterprise happened in the prime universe, where the devil is the model of the ship in TMP and TNG?

 

[TIN_MAN]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

Well, another way to look at it is to compare and contrast the various historical data points we have, and see how many alternate timelines we might be dealing with, regardless of when and where they diverged? Try this for a start...
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/history-earth.htm

 

[Hober Mallow]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

I like the idea, and I think maybe everything changed in First Contact, I've floated this theory around TrekBBS:

---The evidence that gives credence to this theory is as follows: If you notice Captain Picard's wall of ships named Enterprise we see no representation of Archer’s NX-01 Enterprise, even though we see the Space Shuttle and the Aircraft Carrier Enterprise. (I know ST:Enterprise wasn’t on the air yet, ok? Stick with me) -So what if when Picard and the gang go back to protect Cochran’s first warp flight from the borg; Cochran, to honor his friends from the future and their gallant ship, decrees that the first warp 5 ship (when it’s built 100 some years later) be called Enterprise, when perhaps it was not initially christened that name in the original timeline and didn't appear on Picard’s wall of ships !! Another interesting note is that First Contact is the movie that depicts Picard smashing all his little gold ships in a rage against the machines (Borg frustration) perhaps as a symbolic statement that everything can change, including Enterprises legacy… giving further evidence that timelines can be, and have been, altered many times. Nothing is set in stone -or shiny gold plastic.---

That's an interesting take, but then wouldn't Archer's Enterprise appear on the ships wall in Insurrection and Nemesis if that were the case? (Actually, I don't even remember if there was a ships wall in either of those movies.)

Doesn't the Abramsverse separate from the PrimeUniverse with the destruction of the USS Kelvin? If that is the case than the events that take place in Star Trek: Enterprise must belong to both universes.

How can that be when in this movie, even before the Kelvin is destroyed, the Starfleet delta symbol is the badge worn by all starfleet officers? On TOS, every ship had its own symbol and only Enterprise officers wore the familiar badge later seen on all Starfleet crewmen. It seems something must have changed before the Kelvin was destroyed.

Besides, I think at least once Braga said that Enterprise existed in a post-First Contact timeline. I'll have to see if I can find that.

In one interview Braga, while trying to explain the ENT Borg episode, made some confusing statements that some fans interpreted as implying that ENT was in an alternate timeline. But in a followup interview when he was asked specifically about it he said that ENT was in the same timeline as all the other Trek series.

Actually, Braga flat-out said First Contact changed the timeline. Then he backpedaled, proving he really had no clue and that no one should ever ask Brannan Braga a question.

 

[Cyrus]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

Then he backpedaled, proving he really had no clue and that no one should ever ask Brannan Braga a question.

Definitely agreed. Braga should have let Mike Sussman answer all the questions about the Borg episode.

 

[FlapJoy]

Re: Star Trek: Enterprise - Part of the Abramsverse,not the PrimeUnive

...but then wouldn't Archer's Enterprise appear on the ships wall in Insurrection and Nemesis if that were the case? (Actually, I don't even remember if there was a ships wall in either of those movies.)

Well, it's funny... we do see the ships in Nemesis but they limit the case to display the original six TV and movie Enterprises, I assume, limited to ships that belong to the lineage of Kirks TOS Enterprise then Enterprise's A thru E. Pulling the space shuttle and the aircraft carrier out completely, which gives credence that they wouldn't need to show every Enterprise including Archer's ship. BUT, they did want other ships from Trek history in the cases including the Reliant, Voyager, and the Grissom, check this for the whole scoop: http://johneaves.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/more-of-the-golden-starships/

ST:Enterprise was on the air at the time of the film, but I don't think it had yet to make it's debut at the time of Nemesis' pre-production when then sets were built and finalized. (now polishing my "official nerd" button)