I think this is just Picard's naive view that somehow became everyone's view.
Star Trek: Discovery's ethics and morality?
- Thread starter INACTIVERedDwarf
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To the limited extent DIS has actually looked at moral issues, it's basically been an expy of previous excellent Trek shows. For example, the Tardigrade deliberately calls back to Devil In the Dark, an episode which did a much better job conveying that what looks like a monster may in fact not be one. And Lorca's whole attitude of the ends justifying the means just seems like a shallow ripoff of In The Pale Moonlight. So even when the show does "say something" it basically says things that Trek has said before.
I think this is a stretch. Lorca is definitely morally questionable but I don't think they're trying to do In the Pale Moonlight again. A Trek character can be flawed without calling back that episode.
I think there is substantial evidence to back this up! Everyone in fandom takes statements that Picard makes throughout the series and movies as gospel about what humanity has become and what the Federation is...but there's WAY too much canonical evidence that suggests that HE is actually kinda full of it. For the most part, the evidence points to Picard as a semi-delusional idealist / "Federation fundamentalist" (haha...wow...can't believe I'm typing this...!!) rather than someone who represents anything about the reality of humanity or Starfleet.
People are people. Even 400 years from now. We may have learned, on the WHOLE as a unified society, how to be less prejudiced, murderous, devious, etc...but individual people are still individual people. A couple hundred years of space travel isn't going to change everything.
Kirk actually frames it up perfectly in several episodes...but the "we're not meant for paradise" and "all it takes is knowing that we're not going to kill...TODAY" speeches, for me, are the most realistic about humanity's position in the Trek future.
As for Picard and his beliefs...Lilly Sloan's response in First Contact sums up my feelings after watching TNG for 7 years and 4 movies...."bullshit!!!"
That's not to say I don't think TNG is good, or Picard isn't a great character (he obviously is)...I just think he's also full of shit.
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And it lasted three seasons plus two movies (after First Contact he was still 'principled' but less naive). Even his brother Robert wanted to knock him off his lofty pedestal.
Exactly cultural and social values change (re attitudes to sex, religion, gendar, different ethnic groups) but humans will always be saints and/or sinners.
By the 22nd century the KKK/BNP/Nazi leagues become Terra Prime - love your fellow human but hate the alien).
By the 23rd century - love the Federation, hate everyone else
By the 24th century - love the Feds, Klingons, like the Roms but definitely hate the Dominion
Yeah the more I think about this, the more I think Picard is well-intentioned but kinda full of shit.
While TNG and VOY are fun to watch at times, and you can certainly feel warm and cozy inside about humanity's superior moral and ethical evolution...it just got...I don't know...boring and stale. It felt like a kid show after a while....
"Well...you know, 7...looking out for others isn't illogical...it's HUMAN" (said with a knowing smile and a bucket full of pride)
"Hmmm...thank you Captain Janeway...I shall think about that."
Ugh...f#cking groan....
Having highly evolved principles is meaningless unless you had to struggle to get there.
Like I said, in the case of "Star Trek ideals and philosophy" the journey is FAR more entertaining than the destination. That's why I'm thankful for DSC thus far.
"Well...you know, 7...looking out for others isn't illogical...it's HUMAN" (said with a knowing smile and a bucket full of pride)
"Hmmm...thank you Captain Janeway...I shall think about that."
Ugh...f#cking groan....
Having highly evolved principles is meaningless unless you had to struggle to get there.
Like I said, in the case of "Star Trek ideals and philosophy" the journey is FAR more entertaining than the destination. That's why I'm thankful for DSC thus far.
Picard is/was a GR idealised version of himself......without the medication and casting couch.
And it's one reason why I think I prefer DS9. The "it's easy to be a saint in paradise" theme that runs throughout the show. DS9 was kind of a critique of TNG's Federation Perfected myth.While TNG and VOY are fun to watch at times, and you can certainly feel warm and cozy inside about humanity's superior moral and ethical evolution...it just got...I don't know...boring and stale. It felt like a kid show after a while....
"Well...you know, 7...looking out for others isn't illogical...it's HUMAN"
"Hmmm...thank you Captain Janeway...I shall think about that."
Ugh...f#cking groan....
Having highly evolved principles is meaningless unless you had to struggle to get there.
Like I said, in the case of "Star Trek ideals and philosophy" the journey is FAR more entertaining than the destination. That's why I'm thankful for DSC thus far.
Same. DS9 took all of those "ideals" and put them to the test on a grand scale...and humans "passing the test" wasn't a foregone conclusion like it was in TNG (or later in VOY). That is much more interesting...becuase it makes the "successes" that much more well-earned for the audience when we know our characters aren't perfect and don't ALWAYS do the right thing.
I'm thinking about a what-if scenario of Sisko getting that Q "humanity on trial" treatment and then having to deal with the Dominion War and In the Pale Moonlight, etc. Yikes.
(2,000 comments!!)
I actually have a theory on this.
Q is omnipotent / multi-dimensional / exists across time and space. Q already knew who Picard was and what he represented. I think Q really was fascinated with Picard and was essentially f-ing with him the entire series because he had a fascination with him and his stance on things. The "trial of humanity" was just another way of Q showing Picard a little more about himself and what he stands for. Q knew damn well who humanity really was at the time of Encounter at Farpoint too...so it wasn't really a "trial" as much as it was the beginning of a grand experiment into how he can teach and mentor a being like Picard, who is intelligent...but far below the Q on the evolutionary scale.
Yeah that makes sense. I like that. Q just involving himself in a human linear narrative because he's bored. That's Q to a T. lol
Q is just an intergalactic troll.
Q's behavior makes a lot more sense when you realize he thought Picard was hot and just couldn't take no for an answer.
I always felt Star Trek was written by people who had something to say about our societies, our cultures, philosophy, history, our future, our place in the universe, etc. I love the way it mixed sci-fi topicality (what ifs) with action-adventure. Other shows I consider similar from that point of view are Doctor Who (new), Stargate, Sliders, Outer Limits (new) but Star Trek TNG truly brought it to another level.
Discovery is more action oriented but still try to capture the spirit of Star Trek. It's not just the pointless trial and tribulations of tv shows characters like a soap opera with actions. Nor is it just (character) drama set in the future for no reason. There's action, drama but also some ethical question and sci-fi topics are addressed. No topic are fully explored and dramatized like in other Star Trek shows, or even Doctor Who and Outer Limits, but we get glimpse of it. Discovery up the scale by being much more cinematic and spectacular. It reminds more of Abrams movies. Compared to many Hollywood sci-fi production, Star Trek Discovery is among the best. Great characters, good acting and fun stories thus far. I like that is has a more serious tone than The Orville, which is another great show too. The mirror universe from last episode was not the "tongue-in-cheek mustache swirling evil counterparts" we used to get in other Trek shows. It had a more dramatic tone even if there was some humor. It seems they will get into the topic of the dramatic repercussion of getting into the skin of their evil-selves as well as other issues related to this authoritarian mirror universe.
Discovery is more action oriented but still try to capture the spirit of Star Trek. It's not just the pointless trial and tribulations of tv shows characters like a soap opera with actions. Nor is it just (character) drama set in the future for no reason. There's action, drama but also some ethical question and sci-fi topics are addressed. No topic are fully explored and dramatized like in other Star Trek shows, or even Doctor Who and Outer Limits, but we get glimpse of it. Discovery up the scale by being much more cinematic and spectacular. It reminds more of Abrams movies. Compared to many Hollywood sci-fi production, Star Trek Discovery is among the best. Great characters, good acting and fun stories thus far. I like that is has a more serious tone than The Orville, which is another great show too. The mirror universe from last episode was not the "tongue-in-cheek mustache swirling evil counterparts" we used to get in other Trek shows. It had a more dramatic tone even if there was some humor. It seems they will get into the topic of the dramatic repercussion of getting into the skin of their evil-selves as well as other issues related to this authoritarian mirror universe.
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Every Star Trek has been built on what came before it, even TOS was influenced by the shows of the time. TNG early seasons borrowed heavily from TOS and so on an so forth.
I don’t think it’s an issue if Discovery borrows from Devil in the dark because voyager had the same theme with Equinox.
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