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star trek discovery uniforms, costumes, and clothing

People get pretty defensive huh. Much transference. Hollywood loves gold lame, and apparently we love a punch up over it.

I quite like the DSC badges, but it would be nice to see a more ornate version a la post TWOK, on the admiralty perhaps. Upgrade on kirks medals maybe.
 
I really like the costumes on Discovery and got to see many up close at the Star Trek Convention last month. I went to a talk given by Head Costumer Gersha Phillips and the other costume designers and was really surprised when Phillips was discussing Michelle Yeoh's beautiful gold costume and told the audience she didn't know what type of fabric the costume was made out of. One of the designers under her had to tell her the material was gold lamé. I thought that costume designers were very familiar with all fabrics - especially a fabric that has been used for decades in Star Trek. This made me curious how she got hired not knowing something like that.
Yes it does. As Jaime said, she was hired as Head of the costuming department. The show is all about equity and it is not equitable that she was hired above others when she doesn't know something as basic as gold lamé.
Interesting. So you see a black woman on-stage ask for clarification from her staff about the material used on one costume out of hundreds her department worked on, and your first assumption right out the gate is that she must be unqualified for the job and only got it through some less than equitable circumstances. Sounds like a "subtle" affirmative action complaint to me.

You're making wild assumptions that she doesn't know what gold lamé is based on this one example, which makes no sense since she's a well experienced (and award nominated) costume designer.

You've never lost track in the middle of a long presentation and asked for help? It was an informal Q&A featuring a bunch of images, not a court of law. What if she was tired? What if she wasn't sure due to the quality of the image or the lighting or any number of reasons if it was gold or copper lamé or guipé or gold cloth (yes, I looked those up) or just dyed gold, which are all different but similar looking? Maybe she was just trying to be precise?

Also, what does the show's supposed thematic elements about "equity" have to do with behind-the-scenes production and hiring decisions?

Oh, look, she's well aware of what gold lamé is after all. What a shock, considering she's an art school graduate fashion designer whose been in the business for over 20 years.

8. Gersha Phillips
The Secret Life of Marilyn Monroe (Lifetime)

"I have to lump the three iconic Marilyn dresses into my biggest challenge: The Seven Year Itch dress, the "Happy Birthday, Mr. President" dress and the 1954 Photoplay Awards gold lamé gown."​
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/emmys-sons-anarchys-costume-designer-800281
 
People get pretty defensive huh. Much transference. Hollywood loves gold lame, and apparently we love a punch up over it.
Because crap like this is what gives fans a bad name. It's not enough to just dislike the show, you (general you) have to cast aspersions at everyone involved in the acting and production, assuming they must be incompetent or unqualified and got their job because of some special circumstances rather than their experience and/or education. Some fans would attack the catering staff in their quest to shit on every possible aspect of the show. It's embarrassing and childish.
 
Interesting. So you see a black woman on-stage ask for clarification from her staff about the material used on one costume out of hundreds her department worked on, and your first assumption right out the gate is that she must be unqualified for the job and only got it through some less than equitable circumstances. Sounds like a "subtle" affirmative action complaint to me.

You're making wild assumptions that she doesn't know what gold lamé is based on this one example, which makes no sense since she's a well experienced (and award nominated) costume designer.

You've never lost track in the middle of a long presentation and asked for help? It was an informal Q&A featuring a bunch of images, not a court of law. What if she was tired? What if she wasn't sure due to the quality of the image or the lighting or any number of reasons if it was gold or copper lamé or guipé or gold cloth (yes, I looked those up) or just dyed gold, which are all different but similar looking? Maybe she was just trying to be precise?

Also, what does the show's supposed thematic elements about "equity" have to do with behind-the-scenes production and hiring decisions?

Oh, look, she's well aware of what gold lamé is after all. What a shock, considering she's an art school graduate fashion designer whose been in the business for over 20 years.

8. Gersha Phillips
The Secret Life of Marilyn Monroe (Lifetime)

"I have to lump the three iconic Marilyn dresses into my biggest challenge: The Seven Year Itch dress, the "Happy Birthday, Mr. President" dress and the 1954 Photoplay Awards gold lamé gown."​
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/emmys-sons-anarchys-costume-designer-800281

It’s a face palm moment, nothing more. Dunno why people get het up attacking or defending. Laugh at it, move on, like I have been saying repeatedly in the face of those that would do battle over Michelle Yeohs dress. People assume she doesn’t know what gold lame is...(admittedly, you can basically tell by looking, it’s five quid a metre...) people assume she made the mistake on a TOS dress she wasn’t responsible for making...there are many assumptions.
It’s a funny moment, nothing more. Should she have known? Yeah. Is it the end of the world or a sign of great ineptitude? No, it’s a funny moment, like having a sportsman not recognise a teammate because he’s wearing a hat and playing a different sport or something. It’s something we get plenty of mileage out of here in panel shows (maybe a musician doesn’t recognise his own lyrics on Never Mind The Buzzcocks, we take the mickey out of him, we move on.....)
It’s ok to take the mickey. It’s ok to have a brain fart. We need to enforce Wheaton’s Law here a lot more these days with equanimity. And I can’t stand that it’s called Wheaton’s law.
 
Because crap like this is what gives fans a bad name. It's not enough to just dislike the show, you (general you) have to cast aspersions at everyone involved in the acting and production, assuming they must be incompetent or unqualified and got their job because of some special circumstances rather than their experience and/or education. Some fans would attack the catering staff in their quest to shit on every possible aspect of the show. It's embarrassing and childish.

I think they’re all nuts. It’s a good approach.
‘How did they get the job’ can be seen as humourless or humorous, I guess it depends on the how and who. I still can’t believe Neville Page made the leap from theme parks to make up, based on years of watching and listening to him on Face Off. It’s a source of amusement to me. Sort of how some musicians used to mock sister bliss and her one key playing, or Bill Bailey ripping the p*** out of the edge from U2 in his stand up shows. Either way, people sure get their knickers in a twist and draw their knives damn fast over this nonsense.
 
Either way, people sure get their knickers in a twist and draw their knives damn fast over this nonsense.
It's not nonsense when someone (not you) baselessly concludes that a black woman with twenty+ years experience in the field must be unqualified for the job and only got it through "less than equitable" circumstances based on one minor slip-up or request for clarification during an informal convention presentation.

That's the problem I'm addressing. You do you.
 
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It's not nonsense when someone (not you) baselessly concludes that a black woman with twenty+ years experience in the field must be unqualified for the job and only got it through "less than equitable" circumstances based on one minor slip-up or request for clarification during an informal convention presentation.

That's the problem I'm addressing. You do you.

Tbh, I had no idea about her race or ethnicity until you mentioned it (it’s possible my eyes slid over it...I approach the board like a pub conversation and am often multitasking when I read it.)
There’s better ways of raising the point or making the joke I guess. *shrug*
I have a hard time deciding if I would want someone who has sci-fi experience...and run the risk of them making stuff that just looks too similar to other stuff (which we see a little of in DSC with the Mass effect influence.) or someone who is an ace designer but has no idea what SF, or more importantly, Trek, looks likes. Then there’s a danger of someone going full Flash Gordon (which oh so nearly happens in DSC too. I think the people fabricating the costumes helped reign that in though.) which is usually a bad idea.
I think someone good in the field, who maybe hasn’t worked in SF, but comes to the project because of their love for it would be best. Maybe that’s what happens here. Theiss style is a bit dated, though has retro charm, and the Blackman styles are timeless but perhaps had too long a run. Going back to them, if you’re running a show like the costumes on DSC should maybe be something used as inspiration. The big themes in DSC seem to asymmetry in everything from haircuts to uniforms and accessories. It works better in some areas than others. But it is very prevalent.
Of course, my opinion on Ash’s beard is also asymmetrical . I can’t work out if he’s popularising a look that’s good, or if he’s being a scruffy git and needs to have a shave. There’s a high chance his nan (the actors) said something along those lines. On the other hand, it’s bloody low maintenance, and I have switched to it from the Riker approach myself.
Of course...I am very possibly a scruffy git, as opposed to a Klingon sleeper agent.
 
I went to a talk given by Head Costumer Gersha Phillips and the other costume designers and was really surprised when Phillips was discussing Michelle Yeoh's beautiful gold costume and told the audience she didn't know what type of fabric the costume was made out of. One of the designers under her had to tell her the material was gold lamé.

Where is this surprise? Are you and all other people in this thread attacking Phillips are 100% sure that if some costume is gold that only available fabric to make it is gold lamé? In whole world there isn't any other fabric which can be used in gold costume? If answer is no then who is incompetent? Certainly not G. Phillips.
 
Where is this surprise? Are you and all other people in this thread attacking Phillips are 100% sure that if some costume is gold that only available fabric to make it is gold lamé? In whole world there isn't any other fabric which can be used in gold costume? If answer is no then who is incompetent? Certainly not G. Phillips.

Erm. Not to keep getting back into this silly fight, but the costume looks like gold lame, because it’s more a...technique for making fabric. Something that shiny that bends that way is more likely to be it than not, IMHO. It’s a very interesting fabric, and if nothing else comes out of this rather heated discussion, people will at least hopefully go and look at it. I had no idea it was used for its conductive purposes, though of course, that really should have occurred to me.
If you see a liquid metal looking outfit, odds are it’s lame of some kind, I guess.
 
Tbh, I had no idea about her race or ethnicity until you mentioned it (it’s possible my eyes slid over it...I approach the board like a pub conversation and am often multitasking when I read it.)
OMG. For the third time. This. Is. Not. About. You. I was addressing the poster who was at the convention and saw Gersha Phillips in person. You would have no reason to know her race or ethnicity unless you looked her up,. The person I was addressing (wakeup) would know it because he or she was staring right at Phillips as she spoke. Okay?

I have a hard time deciding if I would want someone who has sci-fi experience...and run the risk of them making stuff that just looks too similar to other stuff (which we see a little of in DSC with the Mass effect influence.) or someone who is an ace designer but has no idea what SF, or more importantly, Trek, looks likes.
She does have some limited SF/F genre experience prior to DSC. She worked on Incorporated, which was set in a future corporate dystopia, The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones, Falling Skies, and a superhero comedy called Defendor with Woody Harrelson.

Erm. Not to keep getting back into this silly fight, but the costume looks like gold lame, because it’s more a...technique for making fabric. Something that shiny that bends that way is more likely to be it than not, IMHO.
But it's not the only thing that looks roughly similar to that, especially under less than ideal viewing conditions, like a picture on a big screen that you're standing under, possibly in bad lighting. There's gold or copper lamé, guipé, "cloth of gold", or just dyed gold fabric, which are all different styles and techniques.

3gdKmJfl.jpg


Besides, it's a moot point, as I posted the example from an Emmy interview with her where she clearly knows what gold lamé is and has worked with it before.
 
OMG. For the third time. This. Is. Not. About. You. I was addressing the poster who was at the convention and saw Gersha Phillips in person. You would have no reason to know her race or ethnicity unless you looked her up,. The person I was addressing (wakeup) would know it because he or she was staring right at Phillips as she spoke. Okay?


She does have some limited SF/F genre experience prior to DSC. She worked on Incorporated, which was set in a future corporate dystopia, The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones, Falling Skies, and a superhero comedy called Defendor with Woody Harrelson.


But it's not the only thing that looks roughly similar to that, especially under less than ideal viewing conditions, like a picture on a big screen that you're standing under, possibly in bad lighting. There's gold or copper lamé, guipé, "cloth of gold", or just dyed gold fabric, which are all different styles and techniques.

3gdKmJfl.jpg


Besides, it's a moot point, as I posted the example from an Emmy interview with her where she clearly knows what gold lamé is and has worked with it before.

You replied to me, I accept your anger is not addressed to me, even if your conversation is. I am conversing.
Lame folds and moves in a particular way, as you see in the stills and the episode. It is also something that can be essentially done to other fabrics...seven of nine for instance, spandex lame I believe? Two way stretch lame? Though that takes it further from a straight Lame. ‘Cloth of gold’ is a sort of old term for the same thing (woven metal fibres) anyway.

Coolest use of it in Trek? Holographic bed covers in TNG. Always wanted one of those.

Lame looks like lame. Of course she knows what it is. And maybe yeah, she couldn’t see the pic in the talk, because then just saying ‘gold lame’ would spring to mind and dodge the brain fart. But that’s all it is. Funny face palm, in need of neither attack nor defense, though you can see why people would question it (and therefore why some defend it).

I know it’s not about me, it’s a discussion. Not a heated phaser battle in an MU corridor.
 
How is it fair to refuse to hire an otherwise perfect and possible better candidate because they didn’t know some useless trivia about a 50 year old costume? Trek shouldn’t require loyalty oaths and proof of the devotion of the staff, it’s a show not a cult.

I don't care that she doesn't know gold lame'. She's a costumer with bad fashion sense. Of course, there could be a connection between the two.
 
a black woman

And so this thread devolves into Ghostbusters style identity politics like so many others...

Someone's work should be allowed to be judged on its own merits or flaws regardless of their race/gender.

I hated the costumes the moment I saw them, and I know I'm not alone. Frankly, I don't know the rationale behind hiring this woman but I don't like her work, period.

BTW, Bill Theiss was gay so if there is a reason for some to bash hiring decisions based on accusing them as "diversity hires" why don't we see a lot of people bashing his work? We don't, because his work was actually good.
 
I don't care that she doesn't know gold lame'. She's a costumer with bad fashion sense. Of course, there could be a connection between the two.
You’re confusing your own opinion with objective truth, like many in this forum. It honestly makes the entire experience miserable for people who would like to actually discuss the show itself and not how it “ruined Star Trek” by existing.
 
I think you are correct... Discovery IS being held to a high standard - the standard that was set by the other treks.
Which is a recipe for disappointment.
You’re confusing your own opinion with objective truth, like many in this forum. It honestly makes the entire experience miserable for people who would like to actually discuss the show itself and not how it “ruined Star Trek” by existing.
Yup. Discovery and the production team cannot be discussed on their merits without other Trek alumni being tossed in as being better. So, Discovery cannot succeed or fail on its own terms it must be better because other shows did it better. :shrug:
 
Theiss, who costumed his lead in greenish chartreuse velour so that characters would be in R B G, but it photographed gold. Still bugs me that he didn 't re-dye after seeing early prints or dailies.

Command looks greener (the intent) in WNMHGB than in the real series, imho.
That's complete bullshit, get a chance and look at the negative from TOS and it was clear it was photographed as green, but through the inconsistent form of NTSC; a standard for US airwaves Kirk's tunic appeared yellow or worse a mustard color, never looked gold. This gold nonsense metastasize on episodes of Deep Space Nine.
 
And so this thread devolves into Ghostbusters style identity politics like so many others...

Someone's work should be allowed to be judged on its own merits or flaws regardless of their race/gender.

I hated the costumes the moment I saw them, and I know I'm not alone. Frankly, I don't know the rationale behind hiring this woman but I don't like her work, period.

BTW, Bill Theiss was gay so if there is a reason for some to bash hiring decisions based on accusing them as "diversity hires" why don't we see a lot of people bashing his work? We don't, because his work was actually good.
I don't care if you don't like someone's work based on its merits alone. Those comments have nothing to do with you or anyone else simply expressing a criticism of her work. You go right on being relentlessly negative free from the scourge of having to be considerate of others.

NO2G0e8.gif


My criticism applied solely to wakeup saying Phillips was unqualified for the job based purely on the erroneous assumption that she doesn't know what gold lamé is, and then taking that a step further by implying that she unfairly got the job over other more qualified individuals in contrast to the show's "theme of equity". Given that wakeup saw her in person and knows that she's black, it's a little odd that he or she went right to the well of "she's unqualified for the job and unfairly got hired over more qualified individuals" which is a common refrain of affirmative-action opponents. Furthermore, it's strange to highlight the show's supposed agenda of equity and then call this out as an example of hypocrisy in light of that.

It's possible that I'm wrong and they didn't mean it that way, but my Spidey-Sense is tingling, and that was a weird way to word the complaint.
wakeup said: ↑
Yes it does. As Jaime said, she was hired as Head of the costuming department. The show is all about equity and it is not equitable that she was hired above others when she doesn't know something as basic as gold lamé.
 
So, Discovery cannot succeed or fail on its own terms it must be better because other shows did it better.

That is usually what happens when part of a greater franchise. You will always be compared, for good and ill, to what came before. It is especially tough to grade Discovery on its own merits when they decided to plop it eight years (in-universe) before one of the most iconic series in American TV history.
 
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