Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x03 - "Point of Light"

[Timo]

...Kirk becoming a starship CO would in no way stop him and Lester from "roaming among the stars" together even in the case where Starfleet doesn't let women become starship COs. Lester could have been a lowly underling aboard Kirk's ship easily enough, if that's what Starfleet thought females were for.

It has to be bigger than that, then: Kirk becoming a starship CO means he's off to his own "world" where there's no place for a relationship with Janice Lester, no matter what her rank or position.

(In other words, the question of whether writer intent originally was of a glass ceiling or not is purely academic: the episode as written cannot logically be read as describing a glass ceiling.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mechanoid1]

I also thought that Janice was talking about being with Kirk, but his 1st duty was to the ship and crew as captain. Not that Starfleet had some rule against women captains.
Imagine if TOS treated Urhas charachter like they do the male comms guy on Disco. In all these episodes I think hes had 2 lines.

 

[Paul Weaver]

Lester could have been a lowly underling aboard Kirk's ship easily enough, if that's what Starfleet thought females were for.

Captains fraternizing with crewmembers? There's been a multitude of examples of where that doesn't work.

Unlike the D and Saratoga, there didn't seem to be many passengers on Kirk's enterprise.

Imagine if TOS treated Urhas charachter like they do the male comms guy on Disco. In all these episodes I think hes had 2 lines.

Not sure where that segway comes from, but minor characters not having many lines is quite normal in all TV.

 

[Timo]

Captains fraternizing with crewmembers? There's been a multitude of examples of where that doesn't work.

...All of them demonstrating that the regulations allow for it.

And "doesn't work" was assured from the get-go anyway, in the Kirk/Lester case.

Unlike the D and Saratoga, there didn't seem to be many passengers on Kirk's enterprise.

Pike in "The Cage" had those two youngsters in civvies, though.

And Kirk seemed to firmly believe nothing would have stopped Lester from pursuing a Starfleet career as such. Nothing besides the unvoiced, that is - that she was crazy as Garth.

Not sure where that segway comes from, but minor characters not having many lines is quite normal in all TV.

Indeed. That Uhura (or Sulu, or Scotty) ever became more than a "minor character" is a miracle unto itself. And in DSC, with its relatively apparently much greater casting resources and already well-rounded central group of characters, I'm not really expecting great exploration into the lives of these one-line extras. Although it's all the more fun when something like that happens against all expectation.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

...All of them demonstrating that the regulations allow for it.

True. Picard and Lt. Cmdr. Nella Daren comes to mind. Granted, I thought it was odd that Star Fleet allowed that, but that demonstrates they apparently do -- at least during Picard's time.

 

[Paul Weaver]

True. Picard and Lt. Cmdr. Nella Daren comes to mind. Granted, I thought it was odd that Star Fleet allowed that, but that shows us they apparently do -- at least during Picard's time.

However we saw how quickly Picard was compromised. Kirk was far more of a military captain than Picard. I suspect all starfleet captains, especially shortly after a major war they almost lost, would have similar mindsets.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

However we saw how quickly Picard was compromised. Kirk was far more of a military captain than Picard. I suspect all starfleet captains, especially shortly after a major war they almost lost, would have similar mindsets.

You're right, but I was simply saying that it apparently wasn't against regulations in Picard's time, and there's nothing indicating it was any different in Kirk's time (not against regulations), which would allow a young CO Kirk to be together with crew member Janice Lester.

I'm not saying that it is necessarily the case that they were, but it is possible. Hypothetically, if it were the case that they had a CO-Crewmember relationship, maybe Kirk (like Picard and Daren) realized relatively quickly that it couldn't work, and thus it might have been a relatively short-lived relationship.

Perhaps Lester (who seemed batshit crazy several years later, which is something maybe Kirk realized this soon after the brain that is in his head started doing the thinking rather than his "other brain") didn't take the rejection very well.

Again, I'm not saying this should necessarily be part of Kirk's backstory; I'm just pointing out that there are ways to massage the backstory to make it possible.

 

[urbandefault]

Janice Lester would never have qualified to be a candidate for a Captaincy anyway.
Her psychosis was not something that just popped up overnight.
I got the impression that it's one of the reason why Kirk left her, she'd been 'out-to-lunch' for a very long time.

She was batshit crazy.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

 

[T'Bonz]

The clear meaning at the time it was aired was that women couldn't be Captains.

Any explanation now changes that meaning to something it wasn't intended to be.

I don't worry about that line. My only thought is that "Thank God attitudes about women have changed since the 1960s."

 

[DaveyNY]

But one does have to take into account that Janice was waaay off the deep end when she said it.

It could be, that Jim just went along so as to not antagonize her.

We've been interpreting and reinterpreting all things Trek for more than half a century, just because "at the time" men's attitudes toward women sucked, doesn't mean we have to continually accept what the original intent may have been.

That's the fun in keeping Trek 'REAL'.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think the thought of knowing she could do something but wasn't being allowed to is what would make her so infuriated. It would be infuriating. I used to argue way back when that I couldn't believe Number One had hit the glass ceiling if you go by "Turnabout Intruder". It's also ridiculous that the Romulans have women Commanders but Starfleet can't have women Captains. Just saying "she's crazy" is a way to write it off. The situation, arguably, drove her crazy. I used to agree with the idea of going with the rationalization "she was just crazy" but nowadays I think it's marginalizing something that was very hypocritical in TOS.

And, of course, since she didn't have the experience to be Captain, all she'd know is the textbook, if she really did study it. She wouldn't have the actual experience of command. So, if she wasn't ready for it, because the opportunity wouldn't have been available to train her to get her up that point, then naturally she wouldn't be qualified or up to the task. Starfleet never would've bothered to prepare her for it. Which is also unfair.

Clearly, for the purposes of DSC, that entire idea should just be ignored. Outright. I'd actually like to see Number One promoted to Captain and given command of Discovery after Pike goes back to the Enterprise, just to spite "Turnabout Intruder".

 

[JirinPanthosa]

By the way, anyone know if there's any chance at all Voq's son is the Blood Oath albino? Does that work out chronologically?

 

[Nerys Myk]

By the way, anyone know if there's any chance at all Voq's son is the Blood Oath albino? Does that work out chronologically?

With the way Klingons age, sure.

 

[cooleddie74]

Had Janet Wallace or Areel Shaw said what Janice Lester did then I could make a strong argument even in this day and age with our love for reinterpretation and retconning for Gene Roddenberry saying that Starfleet in Kirk's time didn't permit women to rise to the position of starship captain. Neither of those women were bat guano insane and fuming with vitriol over how Kirk had supposedly treated them so many years before. They were not only at peace with James T. Kirk but accepting of their new, far more professional relationships with him.

Lester, though, spent an entire episode all but strangling people to death with her bare hands so I don't know if Gene's intention really holds out once filtered through the mouth of a character that may well be one of the most unstable in the entire run of TOS.

 

[Alan Roi]

Captains fraternizing with crewmembers? There's been a multitude of examples of where that doesn't work.

Unlike the D and Saratoga, there didn't seem to be many passengers on Kirk's enterprise.



Not sure where that segway comes from, but minor characters not having many lines is quite normal in all TV.

Ironically, but for the events in Mirror, Mirror, Mirror Kirk could very well have had a long and mutually beneficial relationship with Mariana Moreau as she came across as quite the potential great partner. Federation Kirk, yeah, he was married to his ship.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

doesn't mean we have to continually accept what the original intent may have been

That's what retcons are for, specifically the kind of retcon that overwrites and changes something from before.

@T'Bonz is absolutely correct about the original intent.

 

[DaveyNY]

Had Janet Wallace or Areel Shaw said what Janice Lester did then I could make a strong argument even in this day and age with our love for reinterpretation and retconning for Gene Roddenberry saying that Starfleet in Kirk's time didn't permit women to rise to the position of starship captain. Neither of those women were bat guano insane and fuming with vitriol over how Kirk had supposedly treated them so many years before. They were not only at peace with James T. Kirk but accepting of their new, far more professional relationships with him.

Lester, though, spent an entire episode all but strangling people to death with her bare hands so I don't know if Gene's intention really holds out once filtered through the mouth of a character that may well be one of the most unstable in the entire run of TOS.

It's also obvious (at least to me) that Janice didn't become obsessively psychotic overnight.
It's something that has been part of her nature apparently, since Jim was dating her.
It seems that part of the reason he left her, was because she was so possessive.

 

[Timo]

That's what retcons are for, specifically the kind of retcon that overwrites and changes something from before.

@T'Bonz is absolutely correct about the original intent.

The thing is, though, the writer made an epic fumble in expressing his intent there. Nothing about Lester's actions or attitudes derives from an inability to vie for starship CO position, after all.

Kirk makes it abundantly clear to Lester that there would have been no obstacles to her continuing her Starfleet career. Nevertheless, she claims that Kirk becoming a starship CO made it impossible for the two to stay together and roam the stars. Now, if Starfleet banned women from becoming starship COs, this would only be a good thing for Lester - if she got a ship of her own, she would assuredly have to be away from Jim Kirk, and if she did not, she could serve under Jim Kirk.

So a ban on women at the center chair is at best irrelevant to what Lester is, or has become, or does, or plans on doing. At worst, such a ban would remove the entire plot, as it would remove all of Lester's worries and hand her Jim Kirk on a platter.

It's not even a case of a writer writing a clever hero whom the audience immediately identifies as a stupid villain - that is, a matter of opinion. It's a case of the writer accidentally establishing a direct logical counterindication to what he was trying to say.

Which in this case is not a problem, because the writer didn't have much to say on the issue, one way or another. (Indeed, he said nothing at all on it in the end.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm not going to engage further in "Turnabout Intruder" debate #1771561, especially when it's so off-topic. Anyone who wants to review my position on the episode can just search my posts, for instance for the keyword "Turnabout".

I regretted my post as soon as I posted it, but life is full of mistakes.