Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Commander Richard, Feb 11, 2018.


Rate the episode...

  1. 10 - A wonderful season finale!

    89 vote(s)
  2. 9

    51 vote(s)
  3. 8

    63 vote(s)
  4. 7

    46 vote(s)
  5. 6

    18 vote(s)
  6. 5

    24 vote(s)
  7. 4

    15 vote(s)
  8. 3

    10 vote(s)
  9. 2

    7 vote(s)
  10. 1 - An awful season finale.

    16 vote(s)
  1. urbandefault

    urbandefault Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Dec 3, 2013
    Sickbay, dammit.
  2. Yanks

    Yanks Commodore Commodore

    Jul 6, 2011
    NX01 Bridge
    Anyone notice the "Bread And Circuses" comment from Georgiou? .. reference to TOS?

    So Yanks logs into CBSAA and checks length of episode.... 45 min.... wow, how the hell are they going to wrap this all up? ...

    The episode starts out with Michael narrating... telling the "fear story".... my god, SMG can't even do that. I thought at that time, "this episode is doomed".

    So, we end the last episode with our good ADM announcing they rescued CAPT Georgiou and she will lead us to victory... blah, blah. totally unneeded. Cornwell could have kept the Captain job and used MU G on the away team etc.

    But in this episode, at every turn it seemed like MU G was going out of her way to give herself away. I mean really, no one on the bridge can hear her to talking to Saru, scared tough unpalatable Saru? ... but of course when Michael flies in to protect her appetizer, then they have to "go for a walk" where MU G threatens Michael about trying to expose her. WTF?

    Then we get to see Yeoh ... I mean MU G kick the crap out favorite caged Klingon... only for Michael to say "- Enough! - There is another way." (drama...)

    So we have to go to our other Klingon source of information, Ash....

    "This is a bowline, it doesn't run.
    It doesn't slip.
    It's the first thing I learned as a kid that made me me.
    It ties me to my past.
    Who I am."

    What brilliant fucking dialog... wow.... tying a knot as a kid .... whatever.... I'm seriously thinking of shutting it off.

    ...but I forge on...

    Tyler agrees to help..... and he's now part of the landing team.

    Then, because MU G had a fling with CAPT Killy in the MU, she chooses Tilly to go on the mission. OK, whatever. Fine with me - the more Tilly the better.

    So we get "lowlife" Trailer Trash Tilly(tm) that includes, I believe, our first Tilly cleavage... thank you Star Trek Discovery... no Michael or MU G cleavage, just Tilly.... and her 900th hair-do change.

    Then "Jeanie Alert", Stamets crosses his arms, blinks and ka=poe=e=owe, Discovery is in a cave on Quonos. We get a little self-gratifying Stamets and then our heroes beam down to Orionville. I'm thinking this is going to be pretty cool. Haven't seen the Orions in awhile. Then I get a glimpse of male Orions dancing... I shake my head and think it must be me... and continue to watch.

    Hey, I got a STRONG "Jessica Jones" vibe with the first comments from that Orien woman they approached to sell firearms too...I actually thought that was Krysten Ritter for a minute. :D

    So they have to find the shrine... blah, blah, .... MU G is checking out a MALE Orion prostitute dancer thingy ... good god, they couldn't leave the Orions alone? Of course in good SJW DSC style, MU G has to have a woman too... Tilly's happy about that.

    Tilly gets stoned, then figures out there are active volcano's on Quonos, tells Michael and BOOM... get knocked out by MU G. So they've figured out what the real plan was... my guess it included eliminating MU G after the destruction of the Klingon's "home". Of course Jack Michael Burham can't have this and decides they need to speak with our ADM.

    Speaking of our Admiral, isn't she a doctor? .... WTF is a doctor ADM doing planning war stuff with Star Fleet? ... maybe that's why the Federation is getting their ass kicked.

    Now we have Michael coming full circle here. Instead of acting on impulses and changing the plan, she pleads with Star Fleet and convinces then to change. No Vulcan nerve-pinch required. That's the whole development of Michael.

    Pinch to no-pinch.

    Now I've read many posts that have real difficulties with "the plan". It's war and Cornwell is right. "Terms of atrocity are convenient after the fact." ... this is something that Sisko obviously came to terms with... hell, Star Fleet's section 31 infected the Founders... I don't see what all the heart-ache here is. I like that Michael figured out another plan and that it didn't include wasting Quonos, but I don't question Star Fleet's motives here... unless you're OK with speaking Klingon and weathering countless other wars/skirmishes the rest of your life. It's war people.

    The new plan - I think they had the right players, but I think it might have been more palatable for L'Rell to demand a vote and establishment of the Klingon High Counsel or something to that effect. I know this is SJW trek, but a female is not going to rule the Klingons. I guess the "home world" means more to all the Klingons that one might expect.

    I think Tyler makes the right decision. He has all Voq's memories and can help L'Rell here and the final scene with Tyler and Michael is palatable. ... as was MU G. Michael Yeoh really killed it in both parts. She will be missed... I'm hoping she becomes a thorn in the Federations side and we get to see her again. Not really sure what authority Star Fleet has over her anyways.... she's committed no crimes in this universe.

    It was nice to meet Amanda.

    The Surak / Michael conversation was well....

    Surak: "I am not alone in finding your commitment to Starfleet's ideals commendable.
    I asked if I may give it to you.
    Your record has been expunged, your pardon by the president of the Federation is official.
    Commander Burnham."

    Did ANYONE here feel great for her? I mean, according to Discovery this it tantamount to Kirk getting busted to the rank of Captain and .... well you know the rest.

    I felt nothing for her. .... nothing .... after 15 episodes, I felt nothing. I wanted to feel something for her, but no.

    But hey, we get Clint Howard and "Isik for your thoughts?" so the Discovery writers and producers did their job.... you know....

    Then we get the gushing awards ceremony. Who is Michael speaking to? Just horrible.

    Nice to see Stamets be promoted (sorry Harry). Suru gets the Medal of Honor I1st Kelpian). and Tilly is promoted to ENS (YEAH!!!) and accepted into SFA Training Academy. WTF is that anyways? She's obviously not heading off to SFA, so she needs a "Training Academy"? Good lord, don't you think she's proven herself? Please don't let her turn into Wesley Crusher.

    This was kind of like an Archer "Terra Prime" speech (but not even close to meaning and emotional impact) and a Kirk 2009 movie ending after Pike gives Kirk the Enterprise. ... but Michael is standing there speaking to what seems like "her crew" but the audience is behind her and the ADM is announcing the awards? .... who thinks this crap up?

    "We will not take shortcuts on the path to righteousness." .... WTF does that have to do with Star Fleet?

    Then Michael smiles.... I guess that means her journey is complete... and we all should be very happy, you know that we've been graced by Michael's presence and are all better for it. Same with Star Fleet. Kiss the Michael ring ya all...

    So let's end this season and set us up for Season 2 shall we?

    Suru is now acting Captain (again) Sarak is happy to see Vulcan fro the bridge and off they go to pick up Discovery's new Captain.... wait for it...... they received a distress call .... and it's from Pike's Enterprise?!?!??!

    You know, the one with Michael's brother, Spock on it

    Suru orders:
    "Helm, slow us down."
    "Dropping us out of warp now, sir."

    And poof, we are within meters of NCC-1701.... (not a Discovery exclusive problem, but a trek issue nonetheless.)

    Then of course we get what should have been the JJ-prise.... and we'll have to wait for next season.

    ...and we get TOS music that actually pissed me off.


    Man, I don't know... I get so frustrated with this... I'm not sure I'm going to do this again for season 2.

    ... but what will probably happen is, .... it's so long before Season 2 I'll forgive and jump in again.

    Funniest line?

    When Tilly is first speaking to Michael in their room....

    What's your name?
    I never met a female named Michael before. Do you think that suits you? I'll call you Mickey. I think that's more approachable.
    No, you won't.
    Oh, yeah.
    No, I won't.
    The only other female Michael I ever heard of was Michael Burnham, the mutineer.
    You're not her, are you? [CHUCKLING] Are you?

    That, was laugh out loud funny :guffaw:

    Favorite Characters?

    Georgiou (both)

    Not so favorite characters?

    Michael (affirmed in the last 2 episodes)

    You'd think that the favorites would outweigh the bad, but it's hard when the bad is the show's lead.

    Who cast SMG? .... they should be shot. I have nothing against her personally, but damn...

    I didn't feel a struggle for Michael.... I guess that's the crux of the dilemma I guess. I don't know why she made the deliberate decision to kill T'Kuvma... her action was not an emotional response.
    CaptainMurdock likes this.
  3. aj1981

    aj1981 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jan 9, 2015
    I had fun and created my own post Credits scene for this episode:

    Emerging from the Shrine of Molar, Philippa Georgiou found dawn breaking. Deciding that a human roaming around in daylight, or what passed for daylight on Kronos*, would bring attention she would rather not receive, she stopped for a moment. Assessing her situation, she decided that her best course of action would be to return to the Orion compound.

    Gaining her bearings, there was just enough darkness for Georgiou to make out the gaudy lights of the Orion embassy in the distance. Offering all kinds of reprehensible services and indulgences, there she would blend into the shadows and find a way off this cursed planet. Although the Federation Council had provided her with a significant amount of funds encoded onto the credit chit in her jacket pocket in return for her services, the Federation's apparent recent change of heart left her litle reason to believe these would still be available.

    Moving forward, she suddenly felt a familiar sensation wash over her body, an almost imperceptible thrill of electricity that caused the hairs on the back of her neck to stand on end. Almost as sudden, Georgiou was paralyzed, unable to move...she immediately recognized it for what it was, the snap of an Annular Confinement Beam. I should have expected as much, how could I have been so naive? she thought as her world was enveloped in a wash of golden energy.

    Expecting to find herself aboard the U.S.S Discovery, Georgiou was somewhat surprised to find herself standing inside a transporter room of Federation design, however this was clearly not the starship that had been her temporary prison for the last few days. Glancing around the room, she saw a number of lifeforms, a human, an Andorian, a Vulcan, a Saurian. With the exception of the human, all were inferior lifeforms that made up the disgusting hegemony known as the Federation. However to her surprise, none wore Starfleet uniforms, all wore matching black leather tunics and trousers, almost reminiscent of her Terran Empire.

    The leader, or who she assumed to be the leader, a human male, rugged, handsome in his early 40's stepped forward, clearly about to speak however before he was able Georgiou cut him off "Who are you people?! I demand to be released immediately. I have been given amnesty by Starfleet...", "We're not Starfleet" it was his turn to interject, his voice powerful, commanding, "However we do act in the best interests of the Federation and sometimes protecting those interests mean that we have to work with those whose methods, are shall we say, unsavory. In fact we have an offer for you"

    Considering her position for a moment, she looked hard into the eyes of the dark clad stranger and found them to be cold, dangerous. Georgiou was suddenly in no doubt that these people, whoever they were, meant business. The corners of her mouth moved upward into a sly smile, "I'm listening"......

    *Intentional use of Kronos instead of Qo'nos to decribe the Klingon Homeworld. As a Terran, Georgiou would not consider using the native spelling.
  4. The Memetic Susurrus

    The Memetic Susurrus Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Oct 23, 2017
    Oops :guffaw:My bad! Sorry I misunderstood!

    You know, I've thought about that a lot; about how much has changed--or hasn't--between now and the Trek era. What understandings in the field may have shifted, what changes would have to be made to accommodate new realities. Lots of questions we'd all have to look for answers to: societal trauma following the Eugenics Wars and WWIII, the shock of discovering we were not alone in the universe (and, moreover, that the aliens were not so different, morphologically, than humans, which undoubtedly would have rocked evolutionary biologists before consensus on how strong parallel evolutionary pressures would have to have been developed), the delicacies of inter-species adoption and how the product of that kind of environment might affect the minds of the growing human (attachment issues with Vulcans would be rather interesting, to say the least). The unique pressures of the Romulan War, a war with death and destruction against a faceless enemy (can you imagine the PTSD stemming from that?), etc, etc. Lots of interesting ways the mental health fields might evolve.

    I also think it would put some interesting pressures on various theoretical orientations. In many ways, those that proffer discrete, pat answers might have the most difficulty with some of the societal challenges. A single, manualised protocol already has trouble fitting the various contingencies in normal human behaviour today. Add to that the unique circumstances we find in Star Trek that are taken for granted--humanoid aliens, a background of devastating wars on Earth so horrible that, against all experience and inclination, the surviving nation-states decide to pool sovereignty into a single world government, the successful (?) digitisation of the corporeal form and transportation to somewhere else, faster-than-light travel that reveals a galaxy more familiar than we'd been led to believe by nascent exo-biologists--and I should think theoretical orientations that respect spectrum solutions and experiential factors that make every case unique in time and space would thrive. Less Skinner's descendants and more Freud's, to put simply (though, of course, it could also mean that new theoretical orientations might evolve and older ones combine).

    I'm sure both APAs probably still exist (Psychological and Psychiatric), though to what degree their power holds over practitioners, I'm not sure. There are probably Federation-wide bodies, as well. What would be interesting to know is whether or not there are united guilds for psychologists, psychoanalysts, and psychiatrists (as well as counsellors and social workers and whatever names there are for, say, Andorian or Vulcan mental health practitioners) across the Federation or have they discovered that species'-specific differences are too vast to formulate a pan-sentient science of the mind and, therefore, most of the power and research umph resides in species-specific guilds.
    lawman and fireproof78 like this.
  5. The Memetic Susurrus

    The Memetic Susurrus Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Oct 23, 2017
    Man, I miss Johnny...
    cooleddie74 likes this.
  6. jaime

    jaime Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Sep 2, 2013
    It’s something I occasionally ponder.
    Given that a huge number of people were wiped out, Trek Earth went into a kind of Dark Ages (Which we see in First Contact)
    This obviously explains the Anti-genetic engineering attitude down the line, but would this mean a return to religious values? A rejection of them? Does this have bearing on why we see so little public displays of Earth belief systems? (We know they are in some ways still present.)
    How does this bear on representation in Trek, since that’s a big discussion that’s been opened since DSC aired? It’s possible humanity, since it would be trying to repopulate, focussed away from some things we take as given now...Stamets and Culber are the first gay Trek couple (Uncle Sulu really was too vague in Beyond.) is that something only just coming into a ‘norm’ in Trek by the time of DSC? We know genetic engineering is out, but some kinds of IVF are in (Dax and Worf) while presumably some would be out.
    Something to ponder.
    This week also raises once again of...why are the insides of prions, or even Vulcans, mouths pink? Trek xenobiology is an interesting thing, and we now *know* Klingons have one for every day and one for Sunday best as it were...how does that influence breeding? We know Klingons and Humans can have bairns, so how does that work?
    It’s something not touched on upon much even in Trek lit (well...the official kind....) but I think is genuinely fascinating in Trek, precisely because of its compatible humanoid species.
    I dunno. Trek sort of brings up questions by not dealing with things.
  7. The Memetic Susurrus

    The Memetic Susurrus Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Oct 23, 2017
    It does and some of the answers that are implied may not, at first blush, make sense, largely because although they might have been the writers'/creators' preferred answer, they don't necessarily comport with what we know about human behaviour. Religiosity, for example, generally rises in times of societal stress, but it's not a linear progression and there are a lot of cultural factors that are implicated in the rise or lack thereof. It may be taken for granted that, post-WWIII, religiosity rises in those areas where religion is already a factor but doesn't or does so only mildly in those areas that are heavily secular. So, rises in North America but not in, say, The Netherlands. But Gene wasn't a fan of religion and so we don't hear much about it, thus giving some fans the impression that the future is atheistic. I think that's too facile and a grave misunderstanding of how spirituality evolved and how enduring it is in human beings, but...

    And none of that takes into account what is bound to be the two greatest puzzles for organised religion to deal with: the discovery of humanoid alien life and the successful (depending on your philosophical view) digitisation of the corporeal form and transport to another location. Now, unlike many, I don't think the first puzzle is all that difficult for so-called High Church Christian denominations, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, or Shintoism. Islam might be a mixed-bag but it likely won't be too much of a factor there, either, in the end. However, it'll be a shock to so-called Low Church Christian denominations, I should think, at least initially. I suppose it could all be hand-waved with the idea that God has a pattern for sentient life (humanoid) and used that. Boom, problem solved. The real interesting part is whether or not missionaries will declare open season on every alien, viewing them as prime, virgin territory, or will there be attempts to see if these societies have analogues to Jesus and what that might mean. I can even see some interesting parallels between Surak and Jesus which should make some enterprising (ha!) cultural anthropologists and theologians happy for a long time.

    Transporting, however, is a real conundrum. Essentially, one school of thought is that you're committing suicide every time you step onto that plate and that the "real" you existed only until the moment you first transported; everything since are simulacrums. If you've watched Altered Carbon (or, better yet, read the books), I can see parallel arguments with cortical stacks. Personally, I've never been able to suss out what I think about transporting. What makes it worse is that there appears to be a solid case for substance dualism in Trek, with the mind being clearly something different from the body (katra and whatever the Klingons call their soul). If that's the case, then the case for suicide-by-transport is even stronger (unless you can also, in parallel, make the case that the soul, mind, or katra somehow remanifests within the transported body, perhaps as an epiphenomenon). I can really see religious arguments against transporting, at least for the first century or so. After that...well, all things evolve. Even faith.
  8. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 25, 2001
    The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
    He had some of the most brilliant comic timing I've ever seen. Leno and Fallon combined can't even touch Johnny on one of his bad nights. We may never see his like again.
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    The interesting thing is that they still utilize technology in an attempt to cure some problems, like TOS' "Dagger of the Mind" or "Whom Gods Destroy." Contrast that with TNG moving forward were therapy seems to be less common, even in the face of traumatic events, though counselors on starships might make a difference.
    The Memetic Susurrus likes this.
  10. The Memetic Susurrus

    The Memetic Susurrus Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Oct 23, 2017
    I suspect that, as technology advances, some things might move from domain to domain, with some mental disorders being discovered to have neural correlates more amenable to technological solutions whereas others, with the improvement of psychotherapeutic protocols, remaining in or even moving back to the realm of the therapists' domain. Fuzzying the border between the disciplines is that every person reacts differently to various stressors, their genetic makeup and epigenetic effects will probably also be a factor as well. I can easily see the uneasy cooperation/competition between the adherents of the Pill and the Couch continuing ad infinitum. Life's too complex to be reduced to easy solutions across an entire species, much less multiple species :shrug:
    fireproof78 likes this.
  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    The holodeck, in my opinion, would be an opportune therapy aid, and no, not like "These are the Voyages" but more that nightmarish one were the ENT-D crew are being experimented upon.
    The Memetic Susurrus likes this.
  12. The Memetic Susurrus

    The Memetic Susurrus Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Oct 23, 2017
    Great for exposure therapy, at the very least!
    fireproof78 likes this.
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    Very much so. Could grade the exposure and increase or decrease as necessary, with a preprogrammed "relaxing place" if clients become too activated.

    @gazomg has a Starfleet Counseling Logo running around, in case the Marine one gets boring ;)
  14. The Memetic Susurrus

    The Memetic Susurrus Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Oct 23, 2017
    I could've used something like that during my semi-disastrous attempt at getting my acrophobia taken care of (exposure therapy made it worse, alas...).

    I'll have to ask about that logo. The Starfleet Marines one is a tribute to my father, who was a career Marine (as opposed to me, a career Airman; yeah, I'm like the only Airman who hated to fly!). We share one great passion in life: Star Trek. We agree on practically little else but, on his last visit, we binge-watched Discovery for the first nine episodes together and politely debated the details for a good hour or so later before he retired. It was a fun time... :hugegrin:
    jaime and fireproof78 like this.
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    That sounds amazing :)
    The Memetic Susurrus and jaime like this.
  16. GeekUSACarl

    GeekUSACarl The Last Starfighter Fleet Captain

    Dec 2, 2016
    Phoenix Arizona
    He was truly special. I mean I like Fallon, I think Fallon is good, a real talent.

    But Johnny was just, a kind of superhero in that regard.
  17. jaime

    jaime Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Sep 2, 2013
    I think, because Trek explicitly makes it so transporting is not a copy and destroy process, it makes it theologically easy to accept. In fact, between this and the Katra etc that you mention, it basically means science has outright discovered the soul as part of the transporters energy pattern. (Which explains a chunk of Trek tech along the way, from Spocks brain free life support to Data.) It’s possible an early attempt at copy and destroys transports reassembled Just bodies, and this is what lies at the root of some of the phobias, and even the transporters not initially being for live transport. Somewhere in the mass of energy transporters make and move, is the soul, that has to be moved with it basically.
    The Memetic Susurrus likes this.
  18. Hythlodeus

    Hythlodeus Commodore Commodore

    Apr 23, 2010
    boy, I hate to break it to you, but every Trek is SJW Trek. If you hate the idea of social justice so much, you might be fan of the wrong franchise
  19. Captain Craig

    Captain Craig Vice Admiral Admiral

    Dec 7, 2003
    I've not posted in any of the Discovery topics cause my scheduling prevents me from watching in "real time" and following along. Since it is the finale and I just finished it I'll say this was as good a first season of Trek since probably TNG but in some ways stronger. Mainly cause they charted a narrative vs the old way of doing mostly stand alone shows.

    I'm guessing that next season should solidify for those of us wondering with certainty if we are in the Alpha timeline(whatever fandom is calling it) or the Kelvin-verse. Does that lone shot of the Enterprise hint enough for us though? I think we all knew this card would be played at some point but seems early. Maybe they aren't sure how long this series will go so they want to cover it now?

    I'm glad that MU G is still out there to be a thread the writers can tug on later. Also glad to see spore drive be put on hold. Very curious as to who the captain will be as well as the castings of the Enterprise bridge crew and just exactly who we will see. Might we get a malfunctioning view screen and just hear voices?

    Overall I really liked S1. I detached myself from trying to figure out how they would make the show blend into TOS while being radically more advanced. I'm hoping there is an explanation that they work in later. For now I'll just try to enjoy the ride.
  20. USS Triumphant

    USS Triumphant Vice Admiral Admiral

    Dec 29, 2008
    Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
    There have been several moments in the series that were clearly not meant to be taken literally. Example: in the scene where Burnham was working on the problem Stamets gave her, there weren't really people phasing in and out of reality around her - that was meant to depict the passage of time. I took this as another one - obviously, she wasn't really lecturing in the middle of the room where admirals were giving out awards, so I could either take the scene as what her mere presence there after what she had done represented to the assembly, or, what she was thinking during the assembly.