Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, The War Within"

[Ovation]

I thought M*A*S*H was about the Korean war?

Superficially, but it (the film, especially) was intended as an allegory to Vietnam. Well, the film certainly was—the show just kept the setting and, owing to its length, offered commentary on much more than the Vietnam war. But, IIRC, the film’s director, Robert Altman, originally wanted to set it in Vietnam but the studio was skittish about such a satire set in an ongoing war.

 

[Silversmok3]

America did a lot of stupid things in its war against communism.....

Had the writers used any of this background in Discovery, it’d be a much better show-and closer to the spirit of the original which called out a lot of issues America had. Imagine how potent TKuvmas speech and the war would be if it came after Starfleet spent a season messing with the Houses politically; maybe assasinating one or two heads and supporting another pair of Houses to keep the Klingons fighting each other.

After months of this imperialistic BS,the fed up Klingons unite and decide the UFP has got to go. I’ll shut up now and wait for my regularly scheduled delivery of schlock and reset button anomalies....

 

[DEWLine]

One star, Omega Leonis, is 108 light years from Earth. Another star, Vulcan, is 16 light years from Earth. The Klingons in 9 months occupied 92 light years of space. (These stars are seen on the chart.). That is a lot of space. And, they couldn't hold it. For example, many of the stars in the upper right corner would either fall to the Romulans or the Federation or end up in the Romulan Neutral Zone.

The Whitten Starmap puts Qo'noS' homestar as HD 69076, roughly 110 ly from Sol. Until we get revisions from GAIA's datasets, XYZ coordinates are -70.1025, -80.9458, 28.9223. Here's the SIMBAD file.
And yeah, that's a lot of cubic lightyears between the Klingon border spaces and the Federation "core" systems. And a lot of star nations caught in the middle between the two great powers, along with the Federation's holdings and citizens in those sectors...http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad/s...0&jsessionid=D3912DA13BB1E5F3E739DAE274808685

 

[lawman]

...someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I cannot recall that there is any on screen evidence that the DISCO crew is even aware that they all have counterparts in the MU. I mean they all knew they were no longer in the PU, but I don't think the crew was ever informed of the details of the MU.

They were informed enough to repaint the ship's hull, and have Tilly masquerade as captain after viewing the bio of her counterpart.

Didn't say it was. I said it seemed reasonable...to me.

Just to clarify: what you said seemed reasonable was that the Federation would suffer heavy losses. What you said was a given was that "Starfleet is reliably hopeless at war in any era."

The Klingons are not divided when it comes to how they view the Federation which is as an existential threat to their way of life. The 24 houses may not like each other but they like the Federation even less. This gives them a unity against a common enemy. That is an incredibly powerful motivator and unlikely to be broken by any federation attempts to sow discord amongst the houses.

That is exactly what they're divided about. That was the whole point of T'Kuvma trying to rally the other houses in the series opener: he was convinced the Federation posed an existential threat, whereas the rest of them disagreed.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

They were informed enough to repaint the ship's hull, and have Tilly masquerade as captain after viewing the bio of her counterpart.


Just to clarify: what you said seemed reasonable was that the Federation would suffer heavy losses. What you said was a given was that "Starfleet is reliably hopeless at war in any era."


That is exactly what they're divided about. That was the whole point of T'Kuvma trying to rally the other houses in the series opener: he was convinced the Federation posed an existential threat, whereas the rest of them disagreed.

They were divided in regards as to what to do with the Federation. They are clearly no longer divided about the federation being a threat considering all 24 houses are currently attacking the Federation. Each house is acting as it's own independent nation but they are allied and unified against a common enemy.

 

[lawman]

I feel like we're going in circles here. I'm saying that it doesn't make any sense for them not to be fighting among themselves because they were never unified under any central authority and were never shown to share any common motivation; you're saying they now act as if they have common ground so clearly they must have gotten over their differences. My point is, the show never depicted any transition from condition A to condition B. Not even an implausible one... literally no transition at all.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I feel like we're going in circles here. I'm saying that it doesn't make any sense for them not to be fighting among themselves because they were never unified under any central authority and were never shown to share any common motivation; you're saying they now act as if they have common ground so clearly they must have gotten over their differences. My point is, the show never depicted any transition from condition A to condition B. Not even an implausible one... literally no transition at all.

We're not going around in circles at all. You for some reason have taken issue with something I said so I responded. Feel free to point out where i have said that they have 'gotten over their differences'. I said in my original post that Klingons may not like each other but they like the federation even less. That's a pretty clear indication that I don't think the Klingons have gotten over their differences. They share a common goal in wanting to wipe out the federation and are unified for now. If they were successful in doing so they would no doubt go back to fighting each other over the available territory and resources. Being unified in regards to wiping out an enemy and being unified politically are two very different things.

 

[Turtletrekker]

It definitely was. But during one of the OR sessions, I don't remember which season, the PA announcer mentions the French vs. Vietnamese conflict. This would've been before the start of the war proper in 1955 with the Korean war going on from 1950-1953.

That was in the final episode, "Goodbye, Farewell and Amen". If I recall correctly, they hear about Vietnam before the ceasefire even takes effect in Korea, to which Klinger repsonds "Vietnam? Where's that?"

 

[lawman]

They share a common goal in wanting to wipe out the federation and are unified for now. ...

Could be. But you're inferring an awful lot there in order to make sense of the scenario the show has presented us with. If that's where the Klingons are, strategically and motivationally, I'm just saying the show really hasn't done the legwork of showing us how they got there. We're being asked just to take it at face value.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Could be. But you're inferring an awful lot there in order to make sense of the scenario the show has presented us with. If that's where the Klingons are, strategically and motivationally, I'm just saying the show really hasn't done the legwork of showing us how they got there. We're being asked just to take it at face value.

I'm not inferring anything. We're literally told in this episode that the Klingons are basically treating the war with federation as the Olympics of Doom and are all competing with one another to see who can do the most damage in the most inventive way possible. L'rell even says that the Klingons have tasted blood and will not stop until the federation is wiped out. I've acknowledged that they are not politically unified, and I've made no claims that they are. But it is clear from dialogue that their focus is solely on the federation and not each other and in that respect they are unified.

 

[Silversmok3]

I'm not inferring anything. We're literally told in this episode that the Klingons are basically treating the war with federation as the Olympics of Doom and are all competing with one another to see who can do the most damage in the most inventive way possible. L'rell even says that the Klingons have tasted blood and will not stop until the federation is wiped out. I've acknowledged that they are not politically unified, and I've made no claims that they are. But it is clear from dialogue that their focus is solely on the federation and not each other and in that respect they are unified.

That’s the exact problem. In recorded instances of clans uniting to fight a common enemy,it’s only because said enemy was a serious threat to their survival- see the Sino Japanese war of the 1930s for an example. The show failed to establish Starfleet as that level of threat to the Klingons.

The justification in-show for this war on the Klingon side is basically status points for the Houses. He who raids the most Federation assets wins....but wouldn’t it be easier to just conquer the houses directly then? Why attack Starfleet to impress House Kol when fighting House Kol gets you House Kols stuff AND bragging rights?

With the Dominion and the Borg,the reasons for war were obvious. In Discovery we have Starfleet losing badly for no reason to an enemy committing war crimes against them for no reason , with characters on a ship that could end the fight overnight who choose not to ....for no reason given. It’s junk writing,which is becoming a sad calling card for TV Trek.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

That was in the final episode, "Goodbye, Farewell and Amen". If I recall correctly, they hear about Vietnam before the ceasefire even takes effect in Korea, to which Klinger repsonds "Vietnam? Where's that?"

There too apparently. I haven't watched that episode in a long time. I do tend to rewatch the early seasons (1-5) a lot and I'm sure it was mentioned somewhere in that period.

 

[Jack Watkins]

Hey everyone,

My write-up on "The War Without, The War Within." Head's up that it isn't the most positive thing in the world, as I found most of the character's decisions to be preposterous. Still looking forward to tonight's finale!

If you enjoy the review, I'd love if you checked out the rest.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

Very solid episode.

 

[AndyUK]

This was a fun character episode with a look at the consequences of what happened in the Mirror universe and hyped the series finale up well. 8/10.

 

[cooleddie74]

That was in the final episode, "Goodbye, Farewell and Amen". If I recall correctly, they hear about Vietnam before the ceasefire even takes effect in Korea, to which Klinger repsonds "Vietnam? Where's that?"

I completely forgot that Vietnam gets mentioned in the final episode of M*A*S*H! Cool. Thanks for that reminder!