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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

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The only way I can possibly see Voq (I refuse to call him Tyler because, well, he's not Tyler) getting out of this alive is if Culber is somehow resurrected.

And doing that would be a lot LESS ludicrous than allowing a known spy and murderer to continue the Starfleet career of an innocent victim.
I hate to say I agree with you--because it means admitting to myself that the odds are long that he'll stay a character in the series--but I do.

And yes, it wouldn't be--and isn't really--Tyler in the first place. L'Rell said that, out-front. His personality's been digitally copied but he's not the original. Can't see how Starfleet Medical or Starfleet Intelligence would clear something like that for active duty.

But with these writers...who knows? If they want to continue the storyline, irrespective of how they get there, they'll do it.
 
(Which would actually be the best thing they could do for him. If he gets extradited back to Klingon territory, his fate will probably make him pray for death, given how Klingons treat failed spies.)
I don't think the Klingons would even want him back, he was an outcast to begin with. Furthermore, Arne Darvin may have got off lightly being discommended and exiled, but that was during peacetime and they presumably had diplomatic relations by then.
 
This is disappointing. The only "real" characters we actually ever got to see were Burnham (who got a very unconvincing backstory), Stamets (who is awesome!), and Tilly. (And Saru - but he got basically demoted to "recurring character", and is also basically only there to deliver plot points).

I don't think I'd even call these characters. Burnham is an overstuffed collection of backstory, with no real development beyond that. Tilly is a brazen attempt at fan appeal, the nerd proxy given the inevitable journey of triumph. Stamets is the closest to a character, but he turns in the wind, as the plot demands.

It's to Rapp's credit that there's as much to Stamets as there is, just as it's to Isaacs' credit that Lorca is as compelling as he is. Or was.
 
Unless they can, somehow, convincingly extrapolate that it was Voq, not Tyler, who committed murder

I don't recognize that distinction. :shrug:

The real Tyler is dead and I'm sure everyone knows it by now. No matter whose face the impostor now wears, or what he chooses to call himself, Voq is Voq and should be treated accordingly. Especially now that he KNOWS he's Voq and has admitted everything (proudly, if the fight scene with Burnham in "Despite Yourself" is any indication).

If he actually stays behind in the MU and joins the rebellion - now THAT I can believe.
 
Lorca is also disappointing. During the entire run until now, nobody ever got a grasp on him.

Boy is that part ever true. I think the longest posts I ever wrote in this forum were the ones trying to wrap my head around what Lorca actually wanted and who he was inside.

The MU twist resolves all of that nicely, by making it all irrelevant. I suppose I should be annoyed but mostly I'm glad the show is embracing the "plot first" approach it always had depite selling itself as something else.

DSC reminds me of nothing else so much as a dark, angsty version of Stargate SG-1, a show I liked quite a lot but which was at its best when it never pretended to be anything more than a collection of affable actors playing thin archetypes who [plot] their way through [plot] every week. Lord help us when those kinds of shows get ambition.
 
No - they gave some blatant hints (especially in the episode the week before tonight's) that it was MU Lorca we were dealing with. They by design gave viewers who were playing close attention all the clues they needed.

I didn't buy the fan theory: "The Lorca who Captains the U.S.S. Discovery is actually from the MU..."

Still, it's pretty obvious it wasn't a secret they were desperately trying to hide/keep from the audience (and if they had I sure many would have considered it a cheap last minute stunt - but it's clear this was another planned story element/twist from the very start - and they were dropping hints to the audience all through the season (IE Lorca's oddly shaped scarson his back; and the fact he slept with a Phaser in his bed and his reaction to the Starfleet Admiral waking him in an earlier episode).
Indeed. I've never been a viewer who needs to figure out in advance where the plot is going, but even I was struck by that special shot of Lorca's pad at the end of Into the Forrest I Go. That shot, which showed the discrepancy in the number of spore jumps, was no accident. This was the producers telling us that at the least, there is something going on with Lorca, that all has not been revealed about him. This was the hint that made even me start to think Lorca might actually be MU.

This was not the Darth Vader reveal in Empire which NO ONE saw coming because that was the way producers wanted it to go. Contrast that with the Yoda reveal. Luke says something to Yoda, whom he has just met, like "he can't be Yoda". The camera cuts to a shot of Yoda's face reacting to Luke's statement. This was the producers giving us a hint that there was more to this little green guy than meets the eye. Maybe he was Yoda. Had they wanted to make the reveal as big a surprise as Vader, we would never have gotten that reaction shot from Yoda. This similar to the way DSC handled Lorca.

The DSC producers' weren't trying to hide who Lorca really was. If they'd wanted that, they would never have dropped all those hints. So, all of you TBBS sleuths who followed the bread crumbs to the right destination, congrats, but slow your roll. Seems you found what you were supposed to find.
I'll be honest and say I'm disappointing that they have Lorca being from the MU because I think he was a character more in the actual TOS mold - but that's what happens when you let the guys who worked on ST:VOY (which was crap front to back) do their interpretation of the TOS era.
Can't say that I'm thrilled that it seems way more likely now that we'll lose Lorca, but I'm holding off on feeling disappointment pending how things go in the last few episodes of the season.

And shout out to those who interpreted the scene in "Forrest" where Lorca talks to Stammets about one last jump as Lorca "manipulating" Stammets, This was not the way I interpreted the conversation, but even though the on screen evidence is still less than obvious, it appears that Lorca definitely was manipulating Stammets. So I was wrong about this scene.

I wonder, along with most of us, where is prime Lorca?

Also, getting back to the PU is one thing, but how do they get the MU DSC back to the MU?

If Lorca does die, give DSC credit. They will have done something here that no other Trek series has done; put the captain character in real danger, and I'm not talking about the fake real danger all the other shows have placed their captains in. That's what I call, "boldly going where no one has gone before".
 
io9 has a critique of the episode:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/star-trek-discoverys-horrible-new-twist-made-a-great-c-1822293414

It's rather...emotional, but it hits the nail on the head with this one paragraph:

"There’s no character work. No real allegory. It’s just plot. We’re supposed to drop our jaws in how the pulled it off, and go back and look at the clues. Except, of course, we all saw the clues and just assumed it was bad writing. And it was, it was just differently bad writing than we thought."

This is entirely true. A huge swath of the main characters aren't actually "characters", but "walking plot points". Try describing the characters of Dr. Culberts and Tyler other than their rank/race? There is none. It's basically generic "perfect love interest", a walking plot point (get fridged/turn out to be a manchurian candidate).
Lorca is also disappointing. During the entire run until now, nobody ever got a grasp on him. I remember huge discusions here about people trying to defend his evil doings - even thinking they were the right thing to do (leaving Mudd, "haha, dumb female Admiral bitch had it coming"), all hoping there would be a more moral ambiguos case to be made. But nope - it's just generic undercover bad guy. As if we didn't knew that already by his very introduction scene.
This is disappointing. The only "real" characters we actually ever got to see were Burnham (who got a very unconvincing backstory), Stamets (who is awesome!), and Tilly. (And Saru - but he got basically demoted to "recurring character", and is also basically only there to deliver plot points).

I cannot say I disagree with...well, anything she says. For me, here was the money para:

I want this show to live up to its initial premise and promise: exploring the Federation’s ideals and testing them. You can see the strands of it early in the series and you can see it in some of the Mirror Universe episodes. You lose it every time a twist forces the bad plotting in our faces, rather than the ideas.

As I've said before, this show has, thus far, been one of tantalisingly missed opportunities. And, I agree, if they keep playing this twist-not-twist-twist game, they'll end up in the same situation M. Night did: no one likes his movies anymore or they keep on expecting a stinger twist at the end.
 
I don't recognize that distinction. :shrug:

The real Tyler is dead and I'm sure everyone knows it by now. No matter whose face the impostor now wears, or what he chooses to call himself, Voq is Voq and should be treated accordingly. Especially now that he KNOWS he's Voq and has admitted everything (proudly, if the fight scene with Burnham in "Despite Yourself" is any indication).

If he actually stays behind in the MU and joins the rebellion - now THAT I can believe.
I was under the impression that Voq's engrams were exorcised, not Tyler's. So what's left is the Swiss cheese version of Tyler's engrams. After all, why would L'Rell do the Klingon Death Scream over exorcising Tyler's engrams? It only makes sense if she's banishing Voq.

If that's the case, then you could build a legal case that it was Voq, not Tyler, who killed Culber. But, still, it's implausible, at best, and could you imagine how Stamets would react to that kind of outcome? I mean, I know all Federation folk are these uber-tolerant (when it suits them...), Berkleyite types, but...jeez...that's a little too tolerant, even if it makes perfect sense. If someone killed my lover, I cannot imagine having that someone's face meeting up with me every time there's a staff meeting...
 
Something people seem to be overlooking.

Why did Burnham bring an object along on an undercover mission that would immediately identify her as not being who she claimed?
Considering how quickly and decisively she switched to "I'm from another universe" mode, and how quickly and decisively she pointed out the fact that the badge would have a different quantum variance, I assumed that telling the truth about her PU origins was always a "Plan B" in the back of her mind if things went south, and the badge was a good way to prove her "Plan B" claims.
 
Also, getting back to the PU is one thing, but how do they get the MU DSC back to the MU?

Assuming the real ISS Discovery hasn't already managed to get itself destroyed, then I can only assume the very act of the USS version returning home will switch the ISS version to the MU. Just like before.

it's implausible, at best, and could you imagine how Stamets would react to that kind of outcome?

And I'm sure the real Tyler's family (if there still are any) wouldn't be too keen on it either.
 
M. Night Shyamalan had a streak of bad films, than came back with a roar with Split. The film is a return to his earlier films, where he was successful. He had two goods films: The Sixth Sense and Unbreakable. Split is within the Unbreakable universe, with a sequel in the works.

Speaking of Star Wars, there is a similarity between the two. There is the case of a supreme ruler of an empire having a starship serving as their palace.

Is that even Tyler, or is it a clone?
 
Come to think of it, the dilemma about Tyler and Voq reminds me a bit of Babylon 5's Passing through Gethsemane which explored the question whether you were responsible for murders you not only don't remember committing but that were basically committed by another person in the same body as yours. Brother Edward, the serial killer who became a monk, was legally exonerated by society after his memories were erased and he was given a new personality, but relatives of his victims thought otherwise, and after they tried to jog his memory, he himself became plagued by the question whether his soul was tainted or not and whether God would forgive him or condemn him to Hell for Charles Dexter's sins.

For me, the question in Discovery is, if the Tyler personality fully reasserted itself, would he still be tried as Voq for Voq's crimes? Would he legally be regarded as Voq, Tyler or someone else? I don't think this should be a mere slap on the wrist for him... different case of duplication, perhaps, but Thomas Riker was treated as a distinct person and I don't think they'd let Tyler's-personality-in-a-mangled-Klingon-body simply take over his rank and commission.
 
I was under the impression that Voq's engrams were exorcised, not Tyler's. So what's left is the Swiss cheese version of Tyler's engrams. After all, why would L'Rell do the Klingon Death Scream over exorcising Tyler's engrams? It only makes sense if she's banishing Voq.
This is indeed what seemed to happen, though I really don't get why L'Rell would erase Voq rather than Tyler.

If that's the case, then you could build a legal case that it was Voq, not Tyler, who killed Culber. But, still, it's implausible, at best, and could you imagine how Stamets would react to that kind of outcome? I mean, I know all Federation folk are these uber-tolerant (when it suits them...), Berkleyite types, but...jeez...that's a little too tolerant, even if it makes perfect sense. If someone killed my lover, I cannot imagine having that someone's face meeting up with me every time there's a staff meeting...
Well, it is pretty damn good temporal insanity defence. But even if there were no legal ramifications for the murder, he is not Ash Tyler. He is completely different person who has some memories of real Ash Tyler. They really cannot just pretend he is the real Tyler and let him continue to serve.

More I think of this, more implausible it seems to me that the Klingons would have technical know-how to do this... Their medical tech was always depicted as primitive compared to the Federation, and this level of psycho surgery far surpasses anything that the Federation has ever been depicted to be capable of.
 
And yes, it wouldn't be--and isn't really--Tyler in the first place. L'Rell said that, out-front. His personality's been digitally copied but he's not the original. Can't see how Starfleet Medical or Starfleet Intelligence would clear something like that for active duty.

But with these writers...who knows? If they want to continue the storyline, irrespective of how they get there, they'll do it.

Yeah, I won't be shocked if Burnham is back in the command chain before long. Maybe Tyler can be her No. 1.

More I think of this, more implausible it seems to me that the Klingons would have technical know-how to do this... Their medical tech was always depicted as primitive compared to the Federation, and this level of psycho surgery far surpasses anything that the Federation has ever been depicted to be capable of.

Well, they did have those handy laser gloves that let L'Rell rewire Tyler's brain in about five seconds. So the discrepancy can't be too great.
 
Come to think of it, the dilemma about Tyler and Voq reminds me a bit of Babylon 5's Passing through Gethsemane which explored the question whether you were responsible for murders you not only don't remember committing but that were basically committed by another person in the same body as yours. Brother Edward, the serial killer who became a monk, was legally exonerated by society after his memories were erased and he was given a new personality, but relatives of his victims thought otherwise, and after they tried to jog his memory, he himself became plagued by the question whether his soul was tainted or not and whether God would forgive him or condemn him to Hell for Charles Dexter's sins.

For me, the question in Discovery is, if the Tyler personality fully reasserted itself, would he still be tried as Voq for Voq's crimes? Would he legally be regarded as Voq, Tyler or someone else? I don't think this should be a mere slap on the wrist for him... different case of duplication, perhaps, but Thomas Riker was treated as a distinct person and I don't think they'd let Tyler's-personality-in-a-mangled-Klingon-body simply take over his rank and commission.

Hey, let's bump him down to Specialist and now he can have a relationship with Burnham without fraternizing ;-)

Seriously, I think you're right; at least, were we able to trust the writers with thinking this thing through, you would be. Not sure that is the case, though. I suspect the reason why they did the whole banish-Voq's-engrams thing was to keep Tyler as a viable character. Otherwise...what reason would there be to do it? They didn't have to write in scenes implying he was ripping himself to shreds, after all. No, if they keep him along I suspect it'll be because they believe there's still room for growth in the whole Tyler/Burnham relationship.

The problem is, how much of that is earned? How much of Tyler/Voq was Tyler...and how much Voq? I figure they would do the whole handwavium thing and say that all good things were Tyler and all bad things were Voq, but...
 
Also, to give my two cents about the whole 'the plot is unimaginative because throngs of people discussing it 24/7 are able to eventually decipher its twists' debate: I recall reading on TVTropes that many Babylon 5 fans guessed that Sinclair was Valen right away in Season 1 and it wasn't really a big surprise for most when it all turned out to be true two years later. Were people also calling Babylon 5 unimaginative and boring because of this then?
No - we WERE calling it: "Lord of the Rings...IN SPACE!" though.

But yeah, JMS was full of BS WRT a lot of the things on B5 - namely that he'd never short change the fans - if he didn't get 5 seasons - the story would be what it was up to that point...EXCEPT - when it looked like he wasn't going to get a Season 5 (due to PTEN disbanding; he didn't know TBS would be/was interested until very late in S4) - he actually DID condense everything that was to be part of Season 5 into Season 4 -- which was why the last season of the show was such a mess - as he had told his story in 4 seasons. ;)
 
I'd prefer they pull back on the "twists" altogether, but I guess this is where we're at right now with TV.
Yeah, surprising plot elements are nice and all, but I really don't need that to be extended to the main characters. I just want to learn to know these people, not try to guess which ones of them have been secretly Cylons all along.
 
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