Star Trek : Deep Space Nine's Maquis Arc

[R. Star]

So what, in your opinion, constitutes a moral, just or right action? If the Federation had backed their own colonists all the way and forced a harsher set of terms on the peace treaty, would that have been moral, just and right? Would it have mattered what their motivations were? For example, what if the top members of the Federation were pursuing an expansionist, Human-nationalist policy in order to colonise as many worlds as possible and expand the borders of the Federation, would their backing of the colonists have been as praiseworthy in such a scenario?

Considering the Cardassians started the first war and had a history of attacking and exploiting it's neighbors trusting them to honor any peace treaty is a skeptical notion. As I mentioned in my last post, they violated the armistice by destroying a Federation colony, tried to sieze Minos Korva while negotiating it, and attacked Federation targets even after it when expedient.

As for your example, if the Federation was expanionalist why would they have given the territories away to begin with?

It doesn't make sense to go with a wholly deontological ethic in this case, nor does it make sense to go with an entirely consequentialist one. It is possible to commit an entirely monstrous action 'for the good of the many', just as it is possible to commit entirely monstrous actions 'just following orders' or by following your own code too rigidly.

I'll agree with that point, which is why the Federation has on numerous occasions invoked morality to justify breaking the rules. Just not in this scenario.

Meh.

Can you really call them 'oppressed' when they entered a disputed region of space by choice and then refused to leave it? If Picard's actions in dealing with the Dorvan colonists were any kind of precedent, the Federation gave the colonists every option possible: stay where you are and live under Cardassian rule, or leave and continue with the Federation. It was hardly a forced relocation which resulted in that case.

Oh yes, they're the villains. They had been living there for -generations-, long before the first war started, many were born there. I suppose it's their fault the Cardassians were expansionalist, the Federation gave away their homes without bothering to ask them, and told them to go screw themselves pretty much when they protested it. No it wasn't -quite- a forced relocation, it was just "Meh, stay or go, we don't care, but your homes belong to the Cardassians, suck it up." Well they decided to try and do something about it.

In the UFP's defence, the Cardassian-abetted Dominion invasion of the AQ was an unforeseen consequence - and the Maquis were as much to blame for that as the Federation were. Though, for that conflict, ultimately no one was as much to blame as Dukat was.

Dukat certainly was to blame, but that civillian government that people like to praise so much(that many forget that Dukat was a high ranking official in) willingly agreed to join the Dominion. Blaming the Maquis for the Cardassians joining the Dominion is almost like blaming the people in Danzig for the German invasion of Poland because they had the audacity to fight back when the local Nazi's tried taking over.

 

[DonIago]

Actually there's no evidence whatsoever that the Cardassian civilian government agreed to join the Dominion (if you disagree, please provide a source). And while the novels are non-canonical, "The Never-Ending Sacrifice" makes it quite clear that while many of the Cardassian people didn't oppose the change in government (given all they'd been through, is that surprising?) the existing civilian government was forcibly removed from power via Jem'hadar.

I don't see how it's pertinent how long the civilians lived on the border planets they lived on...the point is they -were- border planets, and you haven't provided any evidence that the colonists didn't realize that at the time they settled there. Even in this day and age I suspect the colonists must have been told by the Federation, "If you want to settle there, we won't stop you...but the planet you're settling on is located very close to our border. You might want to consider that."

You've successfully evaded the question of what better alternative there was for the Federation with regards to the treaty. Should the Feds have refused to cede any planets and turned an uneasy peace into an open war?

Actually, I kind of like the ironic thought of the Feds refusing to give away any of their holdings (yay, no Maquis!) only to have the Cardassians glass the colonies in any case. This would be a better outcome?

 

[MikeS]

I've heard all this talk of appeasment before... September 30, 1938, the major European powers allowed German troops to occupy the Sudetenland, for the sake of "peace in our time". The world was at war a year later when that wasn't enough and Hitler invaded Gdansk.

Did the Poles or the Czechs tell their people "not to settle on the border" for fear of upsetting the Germans?

In fact I'm surprised that it took Picard went along with it. His actions in "Insurrection" proved he had the backbone to go all Maquis on the Feds.

 

[naverhtrad]

Considering the Cardassians started the first war and had a history of attacking and exploiting it's neighbors trusting them to honor any peace treaty is a skeptical notion. As I mentioned in my last post, they violated the armistice by destroying a Federation colony, tried to sieze Minos Korva while negotiating it, and attacked Federation targets even after it when expedient.

As for your example, if the Federation was expanionalist why would they have given the territories away to begin with?

Don't get me wrong, here - I'm not trying to defend Cardassian foreign policy, which often borders on the psychotic. But the up-thrust of my question was essentially that, 'do we back our own people in any given scenario, regardless of what they do?' - given the stance you took previously, I thought this was a good place to clarify your position. As such, my 'expansionist Federation' scenario was completely counterfactual - to see how far you'd be willing to take such a stance.

Oh yes, they're the villains. They had been living there for -generations-, long before the first war started, many were born there. I suppose it's their fault the Cardassians were expansionalist, the Federation gave away their homes without bothering to ask them, and told them to go screw themselves pretty much when they protested it. No it wasn't -quite- a forced relocation, it was just "Meh, stay or go, we don't care, but your homes belong to the Cardassians, suck it up." Well they decided to try and do something about it.

No need to get defensive here. Like I said, I'm not here to defend Cardassian foreign policy, but come on. What would you have the UFP do in this instance? You've already got a treaty in-hand that satisfies the vast majority of the people in the region, and a handful of colonies along the border are pissed because they want to stay in their homes, and they want continued UFP protection. I think it would be reasonable for the UFP to argue for a better peace treaty in their favour, but I imagine most Starfleet personnel (douchebags like Captain Maxwell excepted, of course) wouldn't have them go to war needlessly against the Cardassians over a handful of malcontent humans.

Dukat certainly was to blame, but that civillian government that people like to praise so much(that many forget that Dukat was a high ranking official in) willingly agreed to join the Dominion. Blaming the Maquis for the Cardassians joining the Dominion is almost like blaming the people in Danzig for the German invasion of Poland because they had the audacity to fight back when the local Nazi's tried taking over.

There's a six-year gap, there. A lot wider than the gap between the Maquis formation and their eradication at the hands of the Dominion. But blaming the UFP or the Cardassian peace treaty for the Cardassian invasion of Maquis space is as misguided as blaming the Maquis. Dukat did it for his own self-serving reasons; the Maquis were just an ad hoc excuse to get more Cardassians on board.

 

[sonak]

I've heard all this talk of appeasment before... September 30, 1938, the major European powers allowed German troops to occupy the Sudetenland, for the sake of "peace in our time". The world was at war a year later when that wasn't enough and Hitler invaded Gdansk.

Did the Poles or the Czechs tell their people "not to settle on the border" for fear of upsetting the Germans?

In fact I'm surprised that it took Picard went along with it. His actions in "Insurrection" proved he had the backbone to go all Maquis on the Feds.

totally different scenario. At Munich Britain and France were making concessions at someone ELSE's expense, they weren't moving their own boundaries. It was a total betrayal, and done from a position of weakness.

 

[MikeS]

I'll accept that point. But I believe the lesson is the same, the Feds gave away colony worlds without asking their opinions. After a period of relative peace they were at war with the Cardassians. Give them a little and they take more by force.

 

[DonIago]

Except that they didn't. For all practical purposes the treaty held until Cardassia forcibly joined the Dominion and Dukat took matters into his own hands.

And for all that people harp on how the Feds gave away planets, let's not forget that they gained planets as well.