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Star Trek Books and Comics Timeline-ing Discussion

I’ve been slowly reading through it for the past year or so. It’s interesting in that the 60 ‘missing’ years seem to be partly explained by the fact that in that version of history, there was no WWIII.

Or rather, in that version, the Eugenics Wars were WWIII, as stated in "Space Seed." It wasn't until "Encounter at Farpoint" that WWIII was retconned as a mid-2000s conflict and the "Post-Atomic Horror" was introduced. (I think Roddenberry was trying to fold ideas from his rejected Genesis II/Planet Earth pilots into Trek continuity. Although not exactly, since the nuclear war in G2/PE implicitly happened in the late '90s or so. I see G2/PE as the alternate timeline that would've happened if Gary Seven hadn't been there to diminish the magnitude of the Eugenics Wars by shutting down orbital nuclear armament, the Augment program, and the like.)
 
I’ve been slowly reading through it for the past year or so. It’s interesting in that the 60 ‘missing’ years seem to be partly explained by the fact that in that version of history, there was no WWIII.
Or rather, doesn't the book treat the Eugenics Wars as the "third world war" mentioned by Spock in "Space Seed"? It's been a while since I've looked at it, but from what I remember, Goldstein's book was produced back in an era when those two conflicts were basically one and the same.

EDIT: Crap, ninja'd by Christopher by less than a minute! :D
 
That's the same approach the Voyages of the Imagination timeline used. It seems the only reasonable way to classify tie-ins that mostly weren't meant to be in continuity with one another.

The Voyages of Imagination timeline has been a great resource for me so far. There have been a few occasions where I didn't necessarily agree with them so far, but if I don't have a strong reason for putting something somewhere different, I default to their placement.

However, with things like the Gold Key comics, you're so far removed from canon that I don't think it's even possible to assign them a chronology in common with TOS.

Oh yeah? Just watch me. ;) As I said, my timeline makes no claims to be a consistent history. Just something for my own amusement. It will no doubt be very idiosyncratic when completed.

And Trek has the additional problem that its timeline wasn't even firmly settled on until it was already more than 20 years old. So the tie-ins that came out in those first two decades weren't always written based on the same chronological assumptions as each other, or as what we now use for TOS. For instance, a number of the '80s-continuity novels (most explicitly The Final Reflection and First Frontier) were based on the Spaceflight Chronology timeline which put TOS in the first decade of the 2200s, about 60 years earlier than it's now understood to occur. So when different tie-in continuities don't even agree on when TOS canon took place, is it really feasible to list them in the same chronology? And there's no telling what kind of even more eccentric assumptions the Gold Key issues made about when ST was set.

I've taken the VOI approach here. For example, my entry on the epilogue to Final Frontier places it in 2251 (assumed date Pike takes command of Enterprise per the Okuda Chronology) with the note "Hope and a Common Future chapter: April turns over command to Pike; dated 2192 in novel." I've had to fudge certain dates as VOI did (I placed the main story of Final Frontier 23 years before City on the Edge of Forever, even though the novel explicitly places it 25 years before). If I were trying to build a consistent chronology that could hang together reasonably well, I'd probably just toss that novel out (the whole Romulan plot doesn't mesh well enough with Balance of Terror for my tastes anyway), but that's not what I'm trying to do, so I just make a semi-reasonable estimate in most cases.

I think I need to pick up a copy of the Space Flight Chronology.

I've been meaning to do this for a while myself. Hey, today's payday! Time to hit eBay!
 
Or rather, in that version, the Eugenics Wars were WWIII, as stated in "Space Seed." It wasn't until "Encounter at Farpoint" that WWIII was retconned as a mid-2000s conflict and the "Post-Atomic Horror" was introduced. (I think Roddenberry was trying to fold ideas from his rejected Genesis II/Planet Earth pilots into Trek continuity. Although not exactly, since the nuclear war in G2/PE implicitly happened in the late '90s or so. I see G2/PE as the alternate timeline that would've happened if Gary Seven hadn't been there to diminish the magnitude of the Eugenics Wars by shutting down orbital nuclear armament, the Augment program, and the like.)

Yes you’re right. What I should have said was that the book doesn’t include the nuclear conflict of the mid 21st century, and the time it took humanity to recover from it, not to mention the ‘hand holding’ by the Vulcans in the decades following. Rather it shows a pretty steady forward progression in technological and explorative development from the late 20th century onwards.

Roddenberry’s change of World War III from something in the future of the 60’s to something in the future of the 80’s strikes me as the first manifestation of the trend among some creators and fans to constantly be wanting Star Trek to be a truely possible future from ‘now’. Rather than the default in my mind, which is that Star Trek is a fictional universe that needs not correspond to our idea of the future as we might think of it today, at the expense of continuity with what’s already been established in the Trek universe.

It’s the overal mindset of Discovery which I don’t appreciate as much, that we have to show holograms and cybernetically enhanced crewmen, and shiny new redisigns of the Enterprise, because the established Trek continuity (as messy as it is) couldn’t possibly be what the future will really turn out like flowing from 2018 as it is. But to include those elements is to toss out the old continuity which didn’t include them.

Just my pet peeve, which 90% of fans and certainly the general audience would never agree with.
 
Roddenberry’s change of World War III from something in the future of the 60’s to something in the future of the 80’s strikes me as the first manifestation of the trend among some creators and fans to constantly be wanting Star Trek to be a truely possible future from ‘now’. Rather than the default in my mind, which is that Star Trek is a fictional universe that needs not correspond to our idea of the future as we might think of it today, at the expense of continuity with what’s already been established in the Trek universe.

Well, the approach that was taken with TNG was the typical approach for most fictional continuity at the time. Modern audiences have become attached to the idea of continuity as a rigid and immutable thing, but that's partly because we have much easier access to the work as a whole through home video, Internet references, etc. In the past, that holistic view of an overall continuity was harder to get, so creators tended to be more flexible about changing the detailed facts and just pretending it was still consistent.

For instance, before he did the Trek movies, Harve Bennett produced The Six Million Dollar Man as a weekly series, though he hadn't been involved with the three pilot movies. When it did episodes revisiting events from the first pilot movie, it kept only the broad strokes and freely retconned their specifics to fit the story (even beyond the retcons made in the latter two movies, which replaced Darren McGavin's Oliver Spencer with Richard Anderson's Oscar Goldman and changed Steve Austin from a civilian astronaut to an Air Force colonel). One episode that revisited the events of Steve's bionic surgery and recovery from his accident replaced the nurse who'd been his love interest in the pilot movie (played by Barbara Anderson) with a different character played by a different actress. The details didn't matter, because audiences' experience of a TV series was not as encyclopedic as it often is today. What mattered was what the current story needed.

Roddenberry was from that same generation of TV producers, and thus he was perfectly willing to rewrite the facts of his series' continuity. He didn't see TNG as an exact, slavish continuation of TOS continuity; he saw it as a soft reboot, a chance to reinvent Star Trek to fit his modern view of it and correct past mistakes and discard the parts from earlier productions that he wasn't happy with. The people who create stories don't see them as fixed, permanent things, but as the end result of a process of trial and error and experimentation and change. So naturally they're willing to change their creations still further given the chance. The story doesn't control them, they control the story.

So of course the Gene Roddenberry who was making a Trek TV show in 1987 was not going to keep the bit of TOS continuity that put a global war in 1993, because that would've been stupid. He wasn't making a slavish tribute to decades-old continuity, he was making a TV show for 1980s audiences and future audiences. Writers are like anyone else -- they learn from experience and try to improve and change and make up for past mistakes. That's why it makes no sense to demand that a writer's creation remain absolutely fixed and shackled by its earliest ideas. That denies them the right to improve their work over time. Continuity should not be seen as the exclusive, overriding goal of fiction. The goal of fiction is creativity, and that requires the freedom to innovate.
 
Yes, many of these, especially the early issues, are VERY hard to reconcile with the actual series, continuity wise. Let alone the rest of the franchise.

So Ryan, wasn't there a John Byrne comic where they visit the "Gold Key" universe?
 
So Ryan, wasn't there a John Byrne comic where they visit the "Gold Key" universe?

He did a photo comic that was an homage to the style of the Gold Key comics, I believe. Why does everything have to be a "universe" these days? Why can't things just be stories?
 
So Ryan, wasn't there a John Byrne comic where they visit the "Gold Key" universe?

Yeah thats how I would describe it. I can see Christopher’s interpretation of it too. Both are valid in their own ways. In story, Kirk travels to another universe and it has all the details you’d associate with the early Gold Key issues. So the case could be made that Gold Key, if you wanted to treat them as a whole and not differentiate between the weirder ones and the ones more in line with the show, takes place in a seperate universe.

But of course the end of the comic shows Kirk travel to the TAS ‘universe’ which I wouldn’t treat as a separate universe. So that’s not really a flawless interpretation of the Gold Keys anyway.
 
So the case could be made that Gold Key, if you wanted to treat them as a whole and not differentiate between the weirder ones and the ones more in line with the show, takes place in a seperate universe.

Rather, that specific story was based on the premise that there was a separate universe like the Gold Key comics. That doesn't mean the conceit has any applicability outside the story, or that Byrne meant it as anything more than a joke and a wink to the audience. Just because one specific story treats another fictional construct in a certain way, that doesn't mean its treatment applies universally. Like when Batman '66 did an episode where the characters were watching The Green Hornet on TV, then The Green Hornet did a couple of episodes where the characters were watching Batman on TV, and then they did Batman episodes where the Green Hornet existed as a real person. That's three incompatible definitions of the respective shows' reality within the shows themselves, let alone outside them. (The Simpsons and Futurama did the same thing decades later, treating each other as mutually fictional but then eventually doing a crossover.)
 
When I take a look at the rest of the Gold Keys, I will try to take some notes. Back to your original point Ryan.....I wonder if there are other nods to Gold Key in other trek writings.....
 
There are several books and stories that have scenes that take place before Broken Bow, the most obvious being The Eugenics Wars books.
The Enterprise Logs short story collection has a story on the old sailing ship Enterprise set in 1776, and one on the aircraft carrier Enterprise during WWII.
I think there might also be at least one or two Strange New Worlds stories that take place in the distant past.
It's a bit ambiguous how real it all is, but the Gateways DS9 novella Horn and Ivory is set in Bajor's distant past, and Revelation and Dust also has a story set around the same time.
 
Just finished That Which Divides and was curious where other people have it in their timelines. It doesn't appear to align with The Latter Fire, The Face of the Unknown, or Allegiance in Exile 100% as far as treatment of Arex and M'Ress....the arrival of those characters on the ship. Chekov's involvement in security training is also a bit of an issue.

In the realm of trying to make small details work (this is just in my mind, not trying to convince anyone) we know that Arex and M'Ress were possibly on the ship as a "lower decks" type characters as early as late 2267 with the Galactic Whirlpool. In fact, I think God's Above suggests that they might have been on board the ship even slightly before that, right after "Who Mourns for Adonis?"....

I have to re-examine all of my notes, but on first read I think it might go right before TAS....????
 
Hi Dayton,

I didn't mean to imply you had committed any continuity sins (great book btw) but was wondering where you and others end up placing it in your timelines. The historians note helps out a lot with with placement in generals terms, late 2269, but even with the differences between the books, I was wondering if it was meant to happen right before TAS? There are scenes with M'Ress and Chekov getting to know each other, but I wasn't sure if it was your intent to have it during or between some of the TAS episodes that round out the year.

For what its worth, the alignment differences here aren't that big with the books that came later. With the nods to Arex and M'Ress being on the ship much earlier, it fits, even if later works have Chekov departing and Arex arriving at about the same time period. Arex's placement on the ship easily could have been and on and off again assignment, depending on the work he was doing. Chekov's departure and absence doesn't have to concrete either. In my own mind its possible his "assignment" was not 100% off the ship, he could have returned at pretty much at any point and then departed again.

All part of the fun. Just trying to nail down the best place for it. Thanks for responding.
 
I wrote some notes to accompany my placement of the book in my personal continuity -- I kept Dayton's established dating of 2269, and also noted the following:
Novel is set in late 2269, during the fourth year of the U.S.S. Enterprise’s five-year mission. Story would appear to take place prior to Year Four: The Enterprise Experiment, due to Scotty not yet being familiar with the captured Romulan cloaking device (“The Enterprise Incident”). Placed during The Animated Series due to the presence of Arex and M’Ress in the bridge crew. Pavel Chekov also present during story (possibly as a temporary relief crewmember?). Story covers around four or five days.
I placed the story in November, 2269, not long after the TAS episode "More Tribbles, More Troubles," and immediately prior to IDW's Year Four: The Enterprise Incident, with the presence of the stolen Romulan cloaking device in both tales being a thematic linkage (as well as Chekov being present in both stories), plus of course the Year Four miniseries not taking place any later than November/December of that same year, per Christopher's Forgotten History (with the 5YM ending in either November or early December, 2270).

It also takes place almost immediately prior to the first section of David R. George III's Allegiance in Exile, which it is pretty consistent with, since David's book opens on the very first day of the fifth year of the 5YM, and likewise has Chekov back aboard the Enterprise during those same weeks/months, this time manning the science station. To my mind (and similar to Jay's), I've long held that Chekov "floated" back to the Enterprise several months after his departure in James Swallow's The Latter Fire, perhaps due to Kirk's request over a skilled personnel shortage, and didn't fully resume his Security/Tactical studies until after the 5YM ended (which is where we see him afterwards in TMP).
 
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Apart from the Year Four stuff, which I haven’t read, I agree with everything Leto said. And I also have it placed in November 2269, though perhaps due to consultation with him. I can’t recall.
 
Yeah, I always figured Chekov came back to the Enterprise after TAS for the final year of the mission; I said as much in Ex Machina. In The Face of the Unknown, I tried to reconcile the ExM explanation for why Chekov was gone during TAS (that he took an extended leave/ground assignment to explore whether something could happen with Irina Galliulin) with the explanation from The Latter Fire (that he went off for security training), and the only thing I couldn't reconcile was that ExM referred to Arex already being the night shift navigator before Chekov left. So it's still part of my version of the 5YM that Chekov is back for the last part of it, because there are several late-5YM novels that include him.
 
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