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Star Trek and Science

Meeting alien life is much the same way. You never know when you're going to be the "caveman" in an encounter. What happens when you meet a metacivilization of comparative supermen? Some will aid you, some will hinder you, and most won't care as long as you don't get in their way. Then what do you do? You make sure you're on good terms with the friendly ones because they're the only ones that can protect you from the not-so-nice ones.
We've actually SEEN this happen a number of times; take the Metrons, the Organians, the First Federation, Trelane, the Talosians, the Prophets, even the Q continuum. Starfleet as a rule tries to be on its best behavior when meeting a new species precisely because you never know when YOU might be the primitives in an encounter, and because they remember from their own history how painful it can be when powerful cultures try to dominate weaker ones. And wouldn't you know it: nine times out of ten the semi-god aliens they encounter have either been openly benevolent or intensely ambivalent; the closest thing we see to malevolence is simply callous disregard for life in favor of, say, scientific curiosity (Naguilem), childish pranks, (Trelane), incredibly childish pranks (Q), or a kind of shallow indifference (the Organians). The only time a powerful "new life form" becomes explicitly malevolent is in the example of Gary Mitchel, who is actually a HUMAN driven mad by the sudden explosion of his powers.

It's a concept I sometimes ponder on my own writings, and Frank/Brian Herbert expanded on: humanity is less likely to be dominated by intelligent machines as it is by evil men using intelligent machines.
 
Not even close, since machine life 1) isn't likely to have the same values as organic life (different types of currency) and 2) isn't likely to have the same energy requirements. Humans aren't going to fight a war with a race of machines over a limited supply of lithium ion batteries, nor are androids going to nuke America for using up precious bandwidth. Again: the creation of a machine intelligence necessarily creates a new niche for both of them which are fundamentally incompatible; if humans are enough like their machines to come into DIRECT competition, then you know something screwy (genetic engineering, for example:shifty:) is going on.

Machines won't require power, metals, space, and similar items? Machines won't be machinery, and thus require the exact same things that our industrial society is based upon?
Possibly; it depends on the machines. In either case we would only come into conflict in the event of strong segregation and a scarcity of resources; if, for example, all the machines lived on Mars and all the humans lived on Earth and both were fighting over control of the only asteroid in the solar system that contained dilithium (sort of like the way humans currently fight each other over OIL:shifty:).

Otherwise, it's just a supply and demand. Unless machines have been forced into isolation, they can purchase those materials from the same sources as the humans, using the same currency; the only difference is the higher demand probably drives the cost up and some humans might complain about it.

If, on the other hand, machines are so much more intelligent that they don't need to get it from the same sources as us, then competition of any kind is impossible; if we're in the way, it's much more cost effective for them to simply go around us.

Arguably, our very existence is antagonistic to machine life, since we require a biosphere that is hostile to machinery (some level of humidity and oxygen).

Assuming you build a race of intelligent machines out of sheetmetal and copper:vulcan:. Of course, them being so intelligent, it would again be far more efficient for them to shift to materials that are more plentiful and more durable. The first generation of machines would be wise to design their predecessors out of plastic, or even recyclable bioplast. The point here is, they're machines: they're smart enough and versatile enough to adapt to their environment and unlike humans they are probably not stupid or egotistical enough to delude themselves into thinking they can force the environment to conform to them.
 
was utterly destroyed and never returned to Starfleet any real indication of their tech level. Indeed, in "The Neutral Zone" they made it a point that Starfleet's information about the Romulans was terribly out of date.

In the alternate timeline Tasha mentioned stuff to the Ent-C crew about the specific advantages they had over their "Romulan Counterparts of that era", meaning Starfleet did indeed have knowledge of the Romulans at that time. We have no idea how long they meant when they said they were out-of-date in TNZ. It could only be 10 years or so.
 
was utterly destroyed and never returned to Starfleet any real indication of their tech level. Indeed, in "The Neutral Zone" they made it a point that Starfleet's information about the Romulans was terribly out of date.

In the alternate timeline Tasha mentioned stuff to the Ent-C crew about the specific advantages they had over their "Romulan Counterparts of that era", meaning Starfleet did indeed have knowledge of the Romulans at that time.
Yes, 22 years later they did. And this in an alternate timeline where the Federation had been constantly at war with the Klingons that entire time.
 
If they had been at constant war with the Klingons it wouldn't have affected their knowledge of the Romulans, and how would they have gotten any information about the Romulan vessels from the 2340s in the 2360s? It's more reasonable to just assume they had some knowledge of the Romulans until some time before TNG began (like, a few years) and then the info got outdated until the Rommies came out of the Neutral Zone.
 
If they had been at constant war with the Klingons it wouldn't have affected their knowledge of the Romulans
The Romulans are the mortal enemies of the Klingons; you bet your ass it would. Assuming the Romulans aren't actually allies with the Federation at this time, their participation in a war against the Klingons is all but assured.

and how would they have gotten any information about the Romulan vessels from the 2340s in the 2360s?
Probably the same way NATO found out about the Helmet-mounted targeting system on the Mig-29 some twenty five years after its introduction: the Russians upgraded the system and gave the OLD ones to Germany.

Wanna bet some 30 year old Romulan designs ended up in the hands of the Ferengi? :shifty:
 
Considering the level of xenophobia and isolationism compared to the other major empires, I doubt they'd let the Ferengi get their hands on their ships.

Anywho, we're getting off-track with the YE stuff now but having no contact with the Romulans for close to 50 years is a double-bladed sword. Yes it means the Feds had no experience with advancing Rommie cloaks but it also means that the Rommies would have no experience with advancing Fed sensor technology in all that time. Also the Feds wouldn't be so dumb as to not continually advance their sensor tech in preparation for future Romulan resurgance, and it was either due to this or just AMAZING coincidence that the tech level was still the same (with the Feds a bit better at detecting cloaks than the Rommies were at making better cloaks) between the two when the Rommies DID come back. I'm willing to stake it that the Feds just didn't slakc off.
 
Considering the level of xenophobia and isolationism compared to the other major empires, I doubt they'd let the Ferengi get their hands on their ships.
Assuming they had a choice in the matter. The Ferengi are extremely good at getting things they consider valuable.

Anywho, we're getting off-track with the YE stuff now but having no contact with the Romulans for close to 50 years is a double-bladed sword. Yes it means the Feds had no experience with advancing Rommie cloaks but it also means that the Rommies would have no experience with advancing Fed sensor technology in all that time.
What difference does that make, except that the relative peace took the Federation out of a race with the Romulans? That still doesn't explain why nobody else in the quadrant bothered to develop the devices, and it makes it even more mysterious if the Romulans spent those 50 years in total seclusion.
 
The difference is that BOTH sides, Romulans and Feds were equally removed from the race. The Feds didn't have the Rommies around to test out the better sensors they kept developing on, and the Rommies didn't have the Feds to keep testing their cloaks out on to see how good the sensors were.

The Rommies were isolated for the 50 or so years, aside from a few battles with the Klingons (Narendra III and Khitomer), and even then the Feds were still around with their constantly-improving Sensor tech that had all those yeas of keeping up with the best cloaking tech out there. Thus any attempts at making their own cloaks wouldn't match up with the advanced level the Rommies got at and would be ineffective to the sensors the Feds were doing their best to advance even without the Rommies around for further "testing".
 
The difference is that BOTH sides, Romulans and Feds were equally removed from the race. The Feds didn't have the Rommies around to test out the better sensors they kept developing on, and the Rommies didn't have the Feds to keep testing their cloaks out on to see how good the sensors were.

The Rommies were isolated for the 50 or so years, aside from a few battles with the Klingons (Narendra III and Khitomer), and even then the Feds were still around with their constantly-improving Sensor tech that had all those yeas of keeping up with the best cloaking tech out there. Thus any attempts at making their own cloaks wouldn't match up with the advanced level the Rommies got at and would be ineffective to the sensors the Feds were doing their best to advance even without the Rommies around for further "testing".

Which still doesn't explain why NOBODY ELSE bothered to develop them. Again: the Federation/Romulan/Klingon triad is not the entire universe, and anyone wanting to construct a decent military fleet would do well to invest in cloaking technology just like they would invest in shields, deflectors, phasers, warp drive, etc. By your logic the Cardassians never bothered to develop shields because they knew the Federation had weapons powerful enough to penetrate them.:vulcan:
 
By my logic, other races likely DO have cloaks but compared to Fed sensor technology they're not effective and thus aren't used or when used prove to be useless.
 
If they had them they would use them, effective or not. It's the difference between being detected instantly and being detected five minutes later. Same with deflector shields: we already know that the Borg are capable of completely neutralizing any shield barrier in a matter of seconds, and yet Starfleet ships invariably raise their shields whenever they encounter the Borg. Why is that?

Rationalization just doesn't cut it here; if other races had cloaking devices, they would use them, improve them, and over time some of them would occasionally overcome Federation AND Romulan countermeasures, requiring the latter to adapt and compensate. But this development never happens, and the only real explanation is a lack of effort by writers to explore the implications of new military technology. These kinds of inventions tend to proliferate, and once the proverbial genie is out of the bottle it's impossible to put it back in. By all rights, therefore, there should be a hell of a lot more use of cloaking devices, even by the Federation (as we saw in All Good Things, it seems like they eventually will anyway).
 
Well, those few seconds can mean life or death and the Feds had shown they were already working on new advances to the shields to deal with the Borg. So there's plenty of rationalization for using shields on them.

I do agree that the real reason for having everyone use cloaks is because they didn't want to explore the implications of new military tech on the galaxy. And also because the cloak was always the signature weapon of the Rommies and was one of their "iconic techs". Give it to everyone and it loses the Romulan iconography and it increases the FX budget, a big no-no.
 
Well, those few seconds can mean life or death and the Feds had shown they were already working on new advances to the shields to deal with the Borg. So there's plenty of rationalization for using shields on them.
Sauce for the goose; the same applies to an under-developed cloaking device.

Give it to everyone and it loses the Romulan iconography and it increases the FX budget, a big no-no.

That wouldn't be so bad, considering how rarely we saw the Romulans.
 
Yeah, but it would increase the FX budget in that we'd be seeing a cloak in nearly every episode with hostile aliens from that point on.
 
It has more to do with how the Romulans aren't threatening anyone else with a bloody all-out war if they develop cloaking technology like they were with the Feds. I assume with the Klingons they agreed to the tech exchange for more advanced weapons and ship design for their cloak, but with their bigger enemy (Feds) the choice was: You make cloaks, we fight to the end. Not a hard choice for the Feds now is it?

Well, what is also possible is that the Romulans themselves had to agree to concessions of their own - perhaps accepting limits to their weapons technology, or giving up parts of their territory (pushing the border back).
 
Yeah, but it would increase the FX budget in that we'd be seeing a cloak in nearly every episode with hostile aliens from that point on.

What's wrong with that? We see ships with SHIELDS in almost every episode, and you just said that Federation sensors can penetrate most cloaks anyway.

I might just be biased, though, because in addition to Star Trek I grew up on Colony Wars and Ghost In the Shell where everybody and their dog had cloaking devices and were constantly ambushing each other at the most inopportune times.
 
Yeah, but it would increase the FX budget in that we'd be seeing a cloak in nearly every episode with hostile aliens from that point on.

What's wrong with that? We see ships with SHIELDS in almost every episode, and you just said that Federation sensors can penetrate most cloaks anyway.

I might just be biased, though, because in addition to Star Trek I grew up on Colony Wars and Ghost In the Shell where everybody and their dog had cloaking devices and were constantly ambushing each other at the most inopportune times.

I, for one, certainly expect the future to look a lot more like Ghost in the Shell than Star Trek.
 
At this point, Star Trek is more of a retro future than anything else.

Wait till Hanks releases his MAJOR MATT MASON film. Now that is a retro-future I could play in (and live in.) I'm envisioning huge computer banks with reels of tape on them, a la THE PRISONER ... the occasional KNIFE switch, LOTS and LOTS of push-in light-up buttons that are rectangular ... oman, it is gonna be sweet!

As long as Ratner doesn't make it for Hanks.
 
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