Star Trek and Science

[CuttingEdge100]

The thing that's really interesting about Star Trek is that while they embraced technology (which is good), they realized that certain technology was far too dangerous and elected not to use it because the problems it would cause would far outweigh the benefit (which is a fairly wise outlook). One example would be the Genesis Project.

I'm wondering what technologies in Star Trek were not embraced due to their dangerous potentials far out weighing any benefits?


CuttingEdge
BTW: I am not opposed to technology. I do however realize that while technology can do great wonders, and used for great good, it can also be used for very bad things as well, I also realize that while all things have some potential for abuse, some have a far greater potential for abuse than others. My view of technology is similar to my views on fire. If used properly you can do wonderful things with it: You can keep yourself warm, cook food, boil water, make various alloys of metal, weld them, burn fuel for combustion -- drive cars, boats and aircraft with it; if used improperly, though you can kill yourself either by smoke ingestion or being burned alive, you could also cause widespread damage, such as forest fires.

 

[soot]

I've always thought Star Trek's apparent deregulating of certain technologies came off as a little silly. The genetic manipulation edict, for instance. Certainly, it's a slippery slope. You don't want people breeding a docile slave race and the like. But it's fairly easy to draw a distinction between that and giving baby Bashir the help he needed.

I can understand a bit of an overreaction for, say, a hundred years following the Eugenics Wars, but I'd hope there'd be some allowances made the by 24th C. Heck, by that time, the whole supposed risk was just about rendered moot with androids starting to pop up who were every bit as "superior" as Khan ever was.

I'm not sure the Genesis device counts, though. My understanding has always been that they gave up on Genesis because the first major demonstration of it exploded, and because almost everyone involved in it's creation was killed (and the remaining one was probably not interested in continuing the work).

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Soot,

There was also a huge controversy over Genesis as well...

 

[sojourner]

Not sure if it counts, but nanotechnology seemed to be on a backburner for some reason as well.

It seems pretty much any technology that would result in "trans-humans" had the kibosh put on it. Mostly I am guessing the writers did this to keep the characters familiar to us 20th - 21st century humans. God like beings are hard to relate to and even harder to put in conflict if they can solve anything with a finger snap.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The cloaking device, to be most obvious. Much has been made on how f*ing stupid the Treaty of Algernon really was and what a huge tactical liability it is for Federation ships not to have cloaking devices. Little has been made of the fact that EVERYONE ELSE in the universe who never signed that stupid treaty has nothing to stop them from developing it or just plain buying it from the Romulans or the Klingons.

After all, as tchnology has a tendency to proliferate, the conditions are all set for a "cloaking device arms race" that Starfleet alone can volunteer to opt out of, but other races--the Cardassians, for instance--have no reason to do so. Once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't push it back in just by signing a treaty.

 

[kv1at3485]

God like beings are hard to relate to and even harder to put in conflict if they can solve anything with a finger snap.

People usually fail to appreciate that interesting things can be made to happen if you keep advanced civilizations rubbing against other advanced civilizations, instead of having them poke (relative) cavemen.

All it requires are writers who realize it is possible for everybody to get "smart", with everybody exploiting tech and science for their own ends. With everybody being ruthless, the balance is maintained.

Of course, most writers can't think beyond the "only one or two can get smart" leading inevitably to "we can't let that happen or we get curbstomps and uninteresting interaction."

 

[CuttingEdge100]

There are some reasons you'd want to regulate nanotechnology... especially self-replicating stuff.

There actually was some kind of internet cartoon which kind of parodied this ("How to Destroy the World with Nanotechnology" I think it was titled)


CuttingEdge100

 

[kv1at3485]

What I find scary about Star Trek is that it portrays a universe of perfect control. When a tech pops up that is deemed "bad" the magical social and cultural forces manage to put it in stasis forwever, somehow. Every attempt to resurrect it: squashed.

You'd think somewhere, someday, "something" would get into the wild and spread to such an extent that the only way to deal with it is to live with it. This is when interesting things happen. Compared to ST, which is actually quick boring.

 

[Anwar]

The cloaking device, to be most obvious. Much has been made on how f*ing stupid the Treaty of Algernon really was and what a huge tactical liability it is for Federation ships not to have cloaking devices. Little has been made of the fact that EVERYONE ELSE in the universe who never signed that stupid treaty has nothing to stop them from developing it or just plain buying it from the Romulans or the Klingons.

After all, as tchnology has a tendency to proliferate, the conditions are all set for a "cloaking device arms race" that Starfleet alone can volunteer to opt out of, but other races--the Cardassians, for instance--have no reason to do so. Once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't push it back in just by signing a treaty.

It has more to do with how the Romulans aren't threatening anyone else with a bloody all-out war if they develop cloaking technology like they were with the Feds. I assume with the Klingons they agreed to the tech exchange for more advanced weapons and ship design for their cloak, but with their bigger enemy (Feds) the choice was: You make cloaks, we fight to the end. Not a hard choice for the Feds now is it?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The cloaking device, to be most obvious. Much has been made on how f*ing stupid the Treaty of Algernon really was and what a huge tactical liability it is for Federation ships not to have cloaking devices. Little has been made of the fact that EVERYONE ELSE in the universe who never signed that stupid treaty has nothing to stop them from developing it or just plain buying it from the Romulans or the Klingons.

After all, as tchnology has a tendency to proliferate, the conditions are all set for a "cloaking device arms race" that Starfleet alone can volunteer to opt out of, but other races--the Cardassians, for instance--have no reason to do so. Once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't push it back in just by signing a treaty.

It has more to do with how the Romulans aren't threatening anyone else with a bloody all-out war if they develop cloaking technology like they were with the Feds. I assume with the Klingons they agreed to the tech exchange for more advanced weapons and ship design for their cloak, but with their bigger enemy (Feds) the choice was: You make cloaks, we fight to the end. Not a hard choice for the Feds now is it?

That doesn't seem to be the situation considering their blatant misuse of the cloaking device in DS9. More to the point, it doesn't explain the lack of cloaking technology among the Cardassians, the Breen, the Ferengi, the Gorn, the Tholians, the Bajorans, the Maquis, the Nausicans, or all kinds of other people who would have a reason to use them from time to time. For example, think about Ardra's ship, equipped with a "bad copy" of a cloaking device, was able to avoid detection by the Enterprise for several days; for guerilla organizations like the Maquis and the Bajoran Underground would have been able to do TERRIBLE damage to a planet or installation if they had that kind of free reign, or even to a starship given the same amount of time. The question is, why didn't they?

We know the Maquis bought cloaking devices from the Klingons, but for some reason they never used them. Why?
We know Quark knows one or two people who could give him access to crappy bootlegs of cloaking devices, but he never offered them to Sakona and she never asked for them. Why?
We know the Bajorans had people and allies all over the quadrant, some of whom were probably involved in weapons smuggling and dealing with arms traders, but they never arranged to get cloaking devices for their impulse ships. Why?
We know the Breen have a penchant for piracy, and for that matter so do the Ferengi, but neither of them ever invested in cloaking devices. Doubly so for the Ferengi--who invest in anything that might be even slightly useful-- WHY?

Not wanting to antagonize the Romulans only works in the context of those two powers. It doesn't work in the context of a galaxy populated by other races who don't have treaties with the Romulans or the Klingons and are either friendly enough to ask for the technology or hostile enough to need it and avoid becoming their next victims. The logic here just doesn't add up unless Starfleet is the only race in the galaxy that doesn't use cloaking devices.

 

[Anwar]

The Maquis likely DID use cloaks, just that we didn't see them in the episodes themselves because the writers didn't feel like it.

The other races, the cloak pretty much began an arms race in terms of sensor technology in that as soon as the cloak was revealed to the galaxy everyone started developing better sensors to break through the cloak. Like how Kirk and co were able to neutralize the "Fire while cloaked" tech Chang was using in TUC in the middle of their battle. From this we can presume that the Romulans are the only ones (as they originated the technology) to have the most up-to-date cloaking tech to fool sensors and the stuff on the black market it the older less reliable stuff. And even then Cloaking tech became all but useless in the Dominion War when they found out the Dominion can see through the most advanced cloaking tech.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

The thing that's really interesting about Star Trek is that while they embraced technology (which is good), they realized that certain technology was far too dangerous and elected not to use it because the problems it would cause would far outweigh the benefit (which is a fairly wise outlook). One example would be the Genesis Project.

I'm wondering what technologies in Star Trek were not embraced due to their dangerous potentials far out weighing any benefits?


CuttingEdge
BTW: I am not opposed to technology. I do however realize that while technology can do great wonders, and used for great good, it can also be used for very bad things as well, I also realize that while all things have some potential for abuse, some have a far greater potential for abuse than others. My view of technology is similar to my views on fire. If used properly you can do wonderful things with it: You can keep yourself warm, cook food, boil water, make various alloys of metal, weld them, burn fuel for combustion -- drive cars, boats and aircraft with it; if used improperly, though you can kill yourself either by smoke ingestion or being burned alive, you could also cause widespread damage, such as forest fires.

Well, I'd say that the most glaring one... and the one that provides the most "grist" for future storytelling... is "sentient A.I."

This was first broached on TOS... several times. Each time, it was demonstrated that the A.I. was inferior to the human which it was intended to replace.

By TNG, however, we see that this line has begun to blur... but also that there are clear "prejudices" against A.Is.

This isn't at all unreasonable, as if you really do end up with A.Is which are fully-realized, humanity will have just made itself obsolete.

With TNG, the "Data" thing is far more of a Pandora's Box situation that we were ever really led to believe by watching the show. The "Moriarty" thing just proved that it's possible to have a true sentience without any physical reality whatsoever, much less a biological physical reality.

I think that the best place for post-TNG-era Trek storytelling to go... the ONLY place it really should go... is in this direction. Address what happens when the AI in question isn't as blatantly "nice" as Data was.

Will humanity have "invented" itself into obsolescence, or servitude, or worst of all, "pet" status?

Once you have truly sentient AIs, it seems inevitable that you'll have to address that issue, doesn't it?

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Cary L. Brown,

Very good point regarding Sentient A.I.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The other races, the cloak pretty much began an arms race in terms of sensor technology in that as soon as the cloak was revealed to the galaxy everyone started developing better sensors to break through the cloak. Like how Kirk and co were able to neutralize the "Fire while cloaked" tech Chang was using in TUC in the middle of their battle. From this we can presume that the Romulans are the only ones (as they originated the technology) to have the most up-to-date cloaking tech to fool sensors and the stuff on the black market it the older less reliable stuff. And even then Cloaking tech became all but useless in the Dominion War when they found out the Dominion can see through the most advanced cloaking tech.

True, but an arms race isn't a one-sided affair; the race that develops anti-cloak technology also strives to develop a better cloak than its neighbors for the same reason. The same is true in cryptography, guided missiles, aircraft, rifles; nobody creates a counter for a weapon without at least making some attempt to outdo the thing they've just countered. Otherwise, it isn't an arms race, it's "defensive doctrine."

 

[Anwar]

Yes, but as the originators of the technology the Romulans would have a bit more of an edge when it came to making a better cloak than anyone else. That's why the Feds stole the cloaking device in "Enterprise Incident". However the Tomed Incident proved that the Romulans would rather risk an all-out bloody war with the Feds than have it escalate to that and the Feds figured "Okay, either we abandon developing cloaking tech itself while still making better sensors to render it useless or we fight an all-out bloody war to the death." and realized that war was bad. With the most advanced Superpower out of the "make better cloaks" race but still continuing with the "make cloaks useless" race, the other races who had less of an edge in science would just figure to leave the cloaking tech to the Romulans and figure they can obtain the better sensors to neutralize the cloak from the Feds. And seeing how the Feds have thought up multiple ways of seeing through a cloak by DS9 they're right to think that.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes, but as the originators of the technology the Romulans would have a bit more of an edge when it came to making a better cloak than anyone else.

What difference does that make? The Europeans--the originators of firearms--had a bit more of an edge when it came to making the best firearms in the world (flintlocks and later muskets, etc etc). The counter to this development was for other nations to either buy/steal European firearms, or develop BETTER ones themselves. That particular arms race is ongoing and basically eternal, and various countries have been leading it at one time or another. This is what an Arms Race is: you build a flintlock, I build a repeater, you build a bolt-action, I build a semi-auto, you build a full-auto, I build a gas-operated, you build a railgun, I build a phaser, and so on and so forth.

Let's put that another way: when the Oglala Soiux discovered their weapons couldn't compete with American firepower, did they
a) try to develop armor that could stop bullets or
b) get their OWN guns

With the most advanced Superpower out of the "make better cloaks" race but still continuing with the "make cloaks useless" race...

No, see, they're both the same race. Measures and countermeasures are not mutually exclusive. Consider the more similar race between jamming technology (ECM) and counter-jamming technology (ECCM). Every time someone comes up with a new ECM device, their opponent develops a new ECCM device to nullify it. Even in the example of "stealth technology" in ships and planes, it remains the case that other nations beyond the U.S. have invested both in stealth technology and in advanced radars sensitive enough to nullify the advantages of stealth fighters. Only the prime minister of a nation of fools would only run half the race and expect to remain secure.

the other races who had less of an edge in science would just figure to leave the cloaking tech to the Romulans and figure they can obtain the better sensors to neutralize the cloak from the Feds.

The Cardassians can't make that assumption, neither can the Bajorans, the Ferengi, the Breen, the Maquis, or anyone else who isn't a Federation member. For that matter, anyone who isn't planning to go to war with either Romulus or the Federation would still have use for an inferior cloaking device, since their neighbors wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as the top dogs.

 

[Anwar]

There's a difference between offensive weaponry like firearms and a stealth device like the cloak when it comes to an arms race. And I don't recall any major country using firearms threatening an all-out bloody war if the other side didn't stop making firearms.

Like I said, the Romulans threatened all out bloody war and the Feds decided to just continue to make sensors that could neutralize the cloak entirely instead of provoking the Romulans into a war by making their own cloaks. If they stuck to making cloaks they'd face billions dead, if they didn't then they just make advances to eventually cancel out the cloak's advantage and if it still came to war the Rommies would be down their big advantage and the loss of life would be minimalized (hopefully). Not such a dumb idea to agree to the Treaty of Algeron in that context.

The Cardassians don't seem to have any other enemies other than the Feds or the Klingons, one of which DOES have the cloak and the other would have advanced sensors to see past them. Those others probably DO have cloaks (heck the Ferengi bought old Birds of Prey with cloaks) but we just don't see them using them all the time.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

There's a difference between offensive weaponry like firearms and a stealth device like the cloak when it comes to an arms race. And I don't recall any major country using firearms threatening an all-out bloody war if the other side didn't stop making firearms.

The United States did exactly that to a number of nations during the Indian Wars. The main reason it's so rare is because firearms technology proliferates alot faster than the political will of its inventors. On the other hand, in modern examples we have U.S. vs. Iran, Israel vs. Palestine, U.S. vs. North Korea, U.S. vs. China, and other quasi-arms races in which one country tries to impose limits on the other's development of some weapon system or another. As you would note in current events, as well as the overall history of PAST incidents along these lines, such attempts are invariably futile since the embargoed/threatened nation typically develops those weapons anyway.

The Federation lack of cloaking technology can be explained either by invoking a trend of nearly self-destructive pacifism within the Council, or by decisive and total defeat at the hands of the Romulans and accepting the treaty as a term for surrender. The lack by OTHER races cannot, especially in light of their potential advantage over the Federation if they did.

Like I said, the Romulans threatened all out bloody war and the Feds

We don't know that. We only know defining that treaty resulted in no war, and we do not know WHY. It's just as likely that Starfleet got their asses kicked and Romulus imposed that treaty as a victorious party, sort of like the U.S. turning Japan into a "nuclear free zone" after WWII.

And this still doesn't explain anyone else not developing that technology. It's not as if the Romulans threatened EVERYONE with all out war (assuming this is what they did to the Feds, and even this isn't set in stone).

The Cardassians don't seem to have any other enemies other than the Feds or the Klingons

And also the Breen, the Ferengi, and the Bajorans; and even among the Federation, they are not always pitted against Galaxy/Nebula/Intrepid class starships that would be sufficiently well equipped to tackle a twenty year old cloaking device.

Those others probably DO have cloaks (heck the Ferengi bought old Birds of Prey with cloaks) but we just don't see them using them all the time.

Actually, we see them using them NEVER. Which emphasizes the point: the Romulans could have easily bullied the Federation into abandoning the technology, but how do you explain EVERYONE ELSE?

 

[Anwar]

The Treaty of Algeron was signed after the Tomed Incident, which was apparently a battle that had casualties in the thousands on the Fed side alone. Judging from that I'd say it was clear that it was either "We have a Treaty, these are the terms. Sign it or be prepared for an all-out war with us.", are cloaks so important that the Feds would risk millions if not billiosn of lives upon it? It's not like we're talking about Nuclear Weaponry.

Developing the tech, like I said the other powers would be behind in development compared to the Rommies and if they were working hard on it to try and outpace them (unlikely seeing how the Rommies are one of the major superpowers in terms of science as well as the military) they'd have to deal with the Feds' ever advancing sensors as well. So that means a larger drain on the economy towards developing a technology that's already lagging compared to the more advanced and powerul originators and the detection technology of the main superpower of Known Space. May as well just stick to buying black market cloaks with that overwhelming competiton.

And yes, we do know the Ferengi use them. The Cardies, seeing how inferior their tech was to the Federation any cloaks they'd make or buy would be ineffective. Anyone else is just that inferior as well, aside from the Breen but they were an @$$pull race anyways.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Expanding on Sojourner and Cary for a sec here-

I've had a theory for a while that the Federation's been purposely holding themselves (and perhaps other local powers) back so that they don't cause their civilization to undergo dangerous hyperbolic technological growth. Looking at the Federation's more carefully used technologies... artificial intelligence, nano-technology, matter manipulation - ripe ingredients for a Technological Singularity.

Initiated improperly, a technological singularity could be extremely hazardous on a massive scale. Understatement, BTW.

Of course, this is assuming singularity is possible in the Trek mythos. But I personally think that this is proved by V'Ger.