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Star Trek and philosophy

foxmulder710

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
Trek is what got me into philosophy. Everything from Moriarty on TNG quoting Descartes in support of his own sentience to so many other episodes suggesting the dubitousness of "reality" led me to have an interest in philosophy.


Which, interestingly, ended up with me taking classes this past semester in Philosophy of Religion and Philosophy of Mind which both involved watching Trek eps.

Anyone else have a similar experience?
 
Trek is what got me into philosophy. Everything from Moriarty on TNG quoting Descartes in support of his own sentience to so many other episodes suggesting the dubitousness of "reality" led me to have an interest in philosophy.


Which, interestingly, ended up with me taking classes this past semester in Philosophy of Religion and Philosophy of Mind which both involved watching Trek eps.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

I was more inspired by Jedi philosophy myself. But I wonder what would have happened if I had had a chance to discover Star Trek as a teenager. I discovered philosophy in 12th grade philosophy class and greatly enjoyed it (although it didn't involve any Star Trek). So did I in prep class the next year. Here's a subject where you don't really have to study before you write an essay! :cool:
Is there philosophy in the American high school curriculum?
 
foxmulder710, what's your favourite alien philosophy?

Don't you always get annoyed at how the really broad notion of logic is used and abused by Vulcans? If they are so clever and rational, why aren't they more specific and use words like reasoning, demonstration, induction, speculation, hypothesis, judgement, philosophy, methodology, etc., etc.?
...Or admit that logic can prove everything and its opposite. I like Vulcans, and I think that this part of their portrayal doesn't do them justice. :vulcan:
 
I was more inspired by Jedi philosophy myself. But I wonder what would have happened if I had had a chance to discover Star Trek as a teenager. I discovered philosophy in 12th grade philosophy class and greatly enjoyed it (although it didn't involve any Star Trek). So did I in prep class the next year. Here's a subject where you don't really have to study before you write an essay! :cool:
Is there philosophy in the American high school curriculum?

LOL, I used to have both the Jedi Code and the Sith Code memorized, I respected their philosophies so much. They're a lot like Buddhists...only with lightsabers. Just think of say, Anakin: "Life is suffering...[draws lightsaber] bitches..." :techman:

Actually, I was born into a Trekkie family, thankfully. One of my earliest childhood memories involves being about the size of a TV screen and seeing and hearing either the The Next Generation theme song or the opening to The Motion Picture. My Mom loved the show, and so I got into it really intensely really quickly. As for why precisely, that's an interesting question whose answer is lost to history...



In answer to your question, it depends on what school you go to. I had the honor of being sent by Hurricane Katrina from my all-boys Catholic high school to a very secular but pleasant boarding school for Math, Science, and the Arts. Everyone there seemed really really intelligent and liberal, and there was an Intro. To Philosophy class, so I jumped on it, having just deconverted from Catholicism and now all about reason and argument and such....


LOL sorry if I ended up rambling.
 
foxmulder710, what's your favourite alien philosophy?

Don't you always get annoyed at how the really broad notion of logic is used and abused by Vulcans? If they are so clever and rational, why aren't they more specific and use words like reasoning, demonstration, induction, speculation, hypothesis, judgement, philosophy, methodology, etc., etc.?
...Or admit that logic can prove everything and its opposite. I like Vulcans, and I think that this part of their portrayal doesn't do them justice. :vulcan:

My favorite "alien philosophy"...hmm...well, I can't pick out one from Trek I like the most...really I respect the Klingons (the whole honor emphasis, not that I've got much honor myself), the Borg (their albeit amoral quest for perfection, though I can't criticize them for being amoral in a nihilistic universe...), and most certainly the Vulcans (the logic bit...though they end up coming across as basically Stoics with pointed ears...with telepathic powers, which would be soo cool)...which, incidentally, while I've still got emotions and desires for pleasure etc., I end up following de facto most of the time...I'm rational to a fault, and often compare myself to Spock and/or Data...



Yeah, I am annoyed at how...general the use of "logic" and such was, especially in TOS times.

I really loved ENT for making the Vulcans more interesting, at least insofar as their logic was shown as able-to-be-used for what we'd consider negative ends (like keeping Terrans in the Sol system "for their own good" and so forth)....
 
Is there philosophy in the American high school curriculum?
I meant, not an optional class. The "general population" French high school doesn't have many optional courses. It's sciences and extra languages. Everybody gets Philosophy in 12th grade.

LOL sorry if I ended up rambling.
That's all right. I'm always interested in personal details. Now I know that you're a lot younger than I thought. (A lot younger than me.)
What does 710 stand for ? "I'm 17" backwards ? :lol: ;)
Everybody writes 'lol', what does it mean?

Regarding philosophies and other traits of the different Star Trek alien races, everybody knows that those races simply embody the different traits in human nature in their purest form. We individually identify more with one or the other, but it is natural to feel part of several, if not all. (Nobody wants to acknowledge the Ferengi or Cardassian in oneself!)

I personally feel like a cross between the Vulcan emphasis on intellect (and the tendency to lecture), plus their dress style (I even have a Vulcan-like haircut nowadays, not that I did it on purpose), and the boldness and aggressivity of Klingons. (I would like to be able to unleash that in the proper environment. I do control myself.) I admire their purposefulness, I like their frankness. I find their style of lovemaking very honest and fun. I would like to have the nerve of a Klingon. But honor? Get out of here. Honor is a bloated pretext for a lot of wrongdoings.
I also have an affinity with Bajorans for their love of art and their environmentalism, and with the Maquis.
If I had something to say for Cardassians, it would be that they're good at provocation. I can respect that if it doesn't involve being murderous.
 
I meant, not an optional class. The "general population" French high school doesn't have many optional courses. It's sciences and extra languages. Everybody gets Philosophy in 12th grade.

You peeps in Europe are lucky. I WISH Philosophy was required here in 'merica; it'd make things more fun for me.

That's all right. I'm always interested in personal details. Now I know that you're a lot younger than I thought. (A lot younger than me.)
What does 710 stand for ? "I'm 17" backwards ? :lol: ;)
Everybody writes 'lol', what does it mean?

710 is the gematria for my real name. Gematria? A practice engaged in by Jewish Qabalist-mystics by means of which each letter is made to represent a number (e.g. A=1, B=2, C=3 and so on), and then the sum of the numbers in a particular word is added up and then related to other words of the same sum, thereby proving some "mystical" connection. For example, both Greek words "thelema" and "agape" add up to 93; therefore, some modern Qabalists argue that there is a "mystical" relationship between these two words, which mean "will" and "love," respectively.

...phew, that took some 'splanein'.

I'm much older than 17, though.

"LOL" = "laugh out loud," that is, "you said or did something moderately funny"

Regarding philosophies and other traits of the different Star Trek alien races, everybody knows that those races simply embody the different traits in human nature in their purest form. We individually identify more with one or the other, but it is natural to feel part of several, if not all. (Nobody wants to acknowledge the Ferengi or Cardassian in oneself!)

I personally feel like a cross between the Vulcan emphasis on intellect (and the tendency to lecture), plus their dress style (I even have a Vulcan-like haircut nowadays, not that I did it on purpose), and the boldness and aggressivity of Klingons. (I would like to be able to unleash that in the proper environment. I do control myself.) I admire their purposefulness, I like their frankness. I find their style of lovemaking very honest and fun. I would like to have the nerve of a Klingon. But honor? Get out of here. Honor is a bloated pretext for a lot of wrongdoings.
I also have an affinity with Bajorans for their love of art and their environmentalism, and with the Maquis.
If I had something to say for Cardassians, it would be that they're good at provocation. I can respect that if it doesn't involve being murderous.

"The proper environment." :lol: I just got this image of Neelix emerging, bloody and bruised, from a room with that Klingoness from "Prophecy" on Voyager, LOL.

Honor's not always an excuse for wrongdoings. It's a...moral compass of sorts for the Klingons...not that I agree that humanity necessarily needs a moral compass of any kind or that humans would even be able to agree on the nature of that compass.


The Maquis, though? Why? Their...rebeliousness?
 
710 is the gematria for my real name. Gematria? A practice engaged in by Jewish Qabalist-mystics by means of which each letter is made to represent a number (e.g. A=1, B=2, C=3 and so on), and then the sum of the numbers in a particular word is added up and then related to other words of the same sum, thereby proving some "mystical" connection.
Oh, I remember doing that in high school. I reckoned in the Roman alphabet I would be 119.
In numerology, they break it down to one meaningful number, don't they, a bit like a star sign.
I'm really not a big fan of numbers, although I accept that very advanced math have a dimension completely out of my grasp.

And, you didn't ask, but I'll volunteer it: 75 is both the Paris area code and my year of birth.
I thought my alias was too short to go alone.

I'm much older than 17, though.
I reckoned that if you went to high school after Katrina you couldn't be more than 21. By the way, I was in the area in the fall of 2006.

"The proper environment." :lol: I just got this image of Neelix emerging, bloody and bruised, from a room with that Klingoness from "Prophecy" on Voyager, LOL.
Yeah.:guffaw:
Remember Jadzia and Worf? Not that I identify. I'm not into Klingons physically. But a bit of hair and a beard, yes. Some guys look better with a beard.

Honor's not always an excuse for wrongdoings. It's a...moral compass of sorts for the Klingons...not that I agree that humanity necessarily needs a moral compass of any kind or that humans would even be able to agree on the nature of that compass.
A lot of principles come before honor. For me, all values are derived form the founding notion of equality. People are not born equal as a matter of fact, but they are born equal in human (humanoid/sentient person) dignity and right. The 1789 Déclaration des Droits de l'Homme says people are born free and equal in right. Born free? That's also only in principle. Anyway, my trinity is Equality, Liberty, Tolerance. From hence comes compassion, fraternity, and so on. I guess honor is implicit in there.

The Maquis, though? Why? Their...rebeliousness?
I'm a leftist French, dude. Maquis means resistance. One of my grandfathers was a wannabe resistant. And I owe my existence (one generation removed) to the liberation of Paris - by resistants, who wouldn't wait for anglo-american liberators.
I have affinities with freedom fighters vs regular army. Sometimes the Starfleet starch bugs me - figuratively and literally. I don't watch Star Trek for Starfleet uniforms, and I have a problem with cultural imperialists.
 
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Regarding philosophies and other traits of the different Star Trek alien races, everybody knows that those races simply embody the different traits in human nature in their purest form. We individually identify more with one or the other, but it is natural to feel part of several, if not all. (Nobody wants to acknowledge the Ferengi or Cardassian in oneself!)

Well, I'll just come right out and say it.

In my case, it's the Bajorans and Cardassians each that I find the most I identify with. At least in the latter case, I wouldn't have said that in my early Trek years--I was much more of an idealist and a believer in the potential of humanity than I am now. I would've identified with a great many of the Federation ideals: that a world government was to be aspired to, that humans would drop their conflicts with each other, perhaps even that we might be able to move into a post-capitalist society.

I was always a bit more conservative than the ideal Federation citizen, I think, but I lost every bit of my idealism back in 2001 and seven years later, I cannot see it ever returning.

The core of faith that I had always had has become much more important to me. That does not--let me repeat, DOES NOT make me a fanatic, a science-denier, or anything else. Nor does it make me oblivious to all logic or reason as I often see implied (to include within this thread). I will tolerate others, but I will not let that change who I am or what I stand for. Obviously that's where I identify greatly with the Bajorans--but that also leads into the other side.

I am an absolutist, from a philosophical standpoint. I do not believe in relativism of morals--I believe in universal, timeless right and wrong and I resent the loss of that steel in our society. I believe strongly in family, in the sanctity of marriage. I know that many are hypocritical about these things, and I know the extremes to which it can carry people. But I will stand by the ideal in spite of the way in which people abuse it. Yet for what I say about family--there is a line as to how far I would go in their defense. I see families defend those who are convicted of crimes, go on about how they would NEVER believe their precious little dear would do that--and especially in cases where you can be pretty damn sure the family members knew something, I just despise it. Seriously, if a member of my family committed murder and I had evidence...you bet I would turn them in. Would it suck? Yes. But that is where one's obligation to society comes in. I'm not going to shrink back from justice where justice must be done.

I am proud of my country and I refuse to be ashamed of that. Have there been mistakes in its past--some of them severe? Definitely. I won't deny them. And I don't condone them for a second. But I damn well will not turn traitor against my nation, not for one second, or let anyone tell me I should have to hang my head in shame just because I happen to be from here.

Understand I am NOT condoning the fascism, the torture, or that sort of thing. I'm fully willing to call characters like Dukat and Madred evil. Think of that "Cardassian" side of me as the Tekeny Ghemor sort of Cardassian.

I think you could sum up this strange dichotomy by saying this: I am deeply cynical about what I can see, and deeply hopeful about what I cannot.
 
So 9/11 made you a (moderate) Cardassian. I see. Reality caught up with us.

I am an absolutist, from a philosophical standpoint. I do not believe in relativism of morals--I believe in universal, timeless right and wrong

That's convenient.

I am deeply cynical about what I can see, and deeply hopeful about what I cannot.

I like that.
I am almost speechless about your diatribe - not in a bad way, just... taken aback by such assertiveness and seeming coldness, iron lady.
Also, I'm afraid of getting into too much debate with you!
 
So 9/11 made you a (moderate) Cardassian. I see. Reality caught up with us.

That's about the size of it. I can actually see it in the stories and ideas I wrote before and after--it's a pretty sharp difference. Before that time, I can see the worry that something was coming, but it's a lot different now. All that pain (though certainly not what a local, or anyone who knew one of the victims would feel) and all of the bitterness I've seen since then has had its effect.

I am deeply cynical about what I can see, and deeply hopeful about what I cannot.

I like that.
I am almost speechless about your diatribe - not in a bad way, just... taken aback by such assertiveness and seeming coldness, iron lady.
Also, I'm afraid of getting into too much debate with you!

I promise, I don't play dirty...I don't believe in smacking people around for the heck of it.

I have to make a real effort at it, but one of the things about my faith is that it's a constant reminder to keep that iron well tempered, and not to "strike" rashly or indiscriminately. That's not easy but I'm trying, at least.
 
I have to make a real effort at it, but one of the things about my faith is that it's a constant reminder to keep that iron well tempered, and not to "strike" rashly or indiscriminately. That's not easy but I'm trying, at least.
Perhaps that makes you sound a bit Romulan, in so far as I know Romulans.
Romulan friends, please educate me.
I think there are interesting Romulan ladies out there in Trek. At least one I can remember vaguely.

As to hovering bad events, how many of us have been seeing the economical crisis coming?
It was part of the general ill-being. I'm sure it is reflected in fiction somewhere.
 
I have to make a real effort at it, but one of the things about my faith is that it's a constant reminder to keep that iron well tempered, and not to "strike" rashly or indiscriminately. That's not easy but I'm trying, at least.
Perhaps that makes you sound a bit Romulan, in so far as I know Romulans.
Romulan friends, please educate me.

Hmm...I always tended to see the Romulans as rather amoral, myself--but that's just me. The Bajorans definitely had them, and as for the Cardassians...some may disagree, but I say they did too: they just got REALLY warped.

I think there are interesting Romulan ladies out there in Trek. At least one I can remember vaguely.

I think that was from the TOS episode where the crew stole a cloaking device.
 
Hmm...I always tended to see the Romulans as rather amoral, myself--but that's just me.

I think there are interesting Romulan ladies out there in Trek. At least one I can remember vaguely.

I think that was from the TOS episode where the crew stole a cloaking device.

I'll take your word for it on both accounts. But I'm almost sure I was remembering a more recent Romulan lady.

Romulans are just the antiVulcans, aren't they? THE villains. But wasn't it Spock who didn't want to see them as a lost cause? Sometimes, in diplomacy, they're not completely backstabbing. Ha ha.
 
There's the Romulan from Face of the Enemy for another strong female Romulan character.

The way I see Romulans is almost more as extreme versions of humans than the Anti-Vulcans (although, I think, if you set aside the straight jacket of logic, Vulcans actually aren't that different from humans either). Out of all the species, the Romulans are the only non-Federation members that actually seem to have at least some interest in science and exploration. There's always the idea that, in a different reality, Romulans and Humans could call each other friends.
 
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