Star Trek and Humanism

[Paradon]

If you are talking Christianity, or other religions for that matter, I don't think sitting around waiting for divine intervention was never the main focus. It mentioned that people are given choices to make...how they want to lead their own life. But it did say to keep God in your heart as you make those choices; in other words: be strong and make choices not to do evil in face of misery, pain, suffering and death and you will be rewarded, which is the same thing as saying deal with the problem the best way you can without hurting others and yourself and move on, which is what Buddha teaches. Most major religions is about respects for others and yourself.

 

[sonak]

Buddhism's an example of a religion that doesn't say anything like "wait for God to save the day," since in some respects it's non-theistic. Its message in a lot of ways is an emphasis on social justice and moral conduct as a way to liberate one's self from suffering.

 

[BennettStar]

Yep, exactly what I was going to say.

*sigh* And I thought I should have said something about it before someone makes smart ass comment. Too late now. LOL, so yeah, prayers didn't save the day. Ever.

except after beseeching (I love that word) the Prophets, the said fleet went poof!

The difference between prayer and communication is that communication is a two-way street, and both parties are real. Like Sisko, and the wormhole aliens.

Praying involves faith... faith that you're not just talking to your ceiling fan. What Sisko asked was no more "prayer" than when Picard would ask Q to "end this madness!" each and every time he appeared.

 

[Arpy]

I'm an ardent atheist but I worry sometimes about humanity without religion. Many people are quicker to see the problem with the facts of many religions (i.e. Noah's Arc would have needed to be the size of Texas for it to really work) but not the truth of their purpose (do unto others as you would have them do unto you). Still, I have faith that we can have our cake and eat it too, that we can be good without the promise of paradise, damnation, what have you.

It's the kind of world that I would like to live in...one in which we all take responsibility for our actions and try to be good because it feels good and life is as much a mystery to me as it is to you so lets work together at it.

 

[Paradon]

To make long story short... A lot of people don't really understand how humans think and function and simplify things. When it's all done and said, it's much more difficult in real life than it is in movies and televisions where they show the problems can be solved by a snap of fingers. Humans function well beyond the realm of science and logic. Until people understand that, it can be difficult to cope with life as we try to grasp and try to understand why things are the way they are while we are bombarded with information and what's going on around us. The problem with people is want. It's what you want and you keep fueling your want, keeping it alive. That is the motive of every person; why we do things. It is hard to satisfy everything you need and want. We will always feel that way and it's like a void where there's no life. We need to understand that religions fulfill this void, our spirituality needs so that we do things for other people instead of focusing your energy on yourself, driving yourself crazy. Man will never be truely happy if we only simply do the things we want. Religions really tells people that we need to stop and think about other people and that's a good way to make friends. We often loose track of what is the meaning of life by focusing too much on ourselves. Life is very hard and a lot of the problems we face is not that easy to deal with and so we focus on ourselves. A lot of people overlooked their spiritual needs. People feel a lot more than most people can understand. We have lingering feelings even when those sad and terrible events that occurred have past for many years. We can't control it! Religions keep us focus about the true meaning of life...not just about you...but of other people.

 

[T'Girl]

except after beseeching (I love that word) the Prophets, the said fleet went poof!

The difference between prayer and communication is that communication is a two-way street, and both parties are real. Like Sisko, and the wormhole aliens.

Praying involves faith... faith that you're not just talking to your ceiling fan. What Sisko asked was no more "prayer" than when Picard would ask Q to "end this madness!" each and every time he appeared.

If you access the scene referred to BennettStar (I think youtube has it) "beseeching" is exactly what Sisko was doing, in terms of the tone of his voice and his choice of words. He was seriously asking for help from supernatural beings ... prayer.

Sisko: "...be gods. I need a miracle. Bajor needs a miracle. Stop those ships."

And BennettStar, spiritual communion with God is "two way."

 

[sonak]

except after beseeching (I love that word) the Prophets, the said fleet went poof!

The difference between prayer and communication is that communication is a two-way street, and both parties are real. Like Sisko, and the wormhole aliens.

Praying involves faith... faith that you're not just talking to your ceiling fan. What Sisko asked was no more "prayer" than when Picard would ask Q to "end this madness!" each and every time he appeared.

If you access the scene referred to BennettStar (I think youtube has it) "beseeching" is exactly what Sisko was doing, in terms of the tone of his voice and his choice of words. He was seriously asking for help from supernatural beings ... prayer.

Sisko: "...be gods. I need a miracle. Bajor needs a miracle. Stop those ships."

And BennettStar, spiritual communion with God is "two way."

hmmm... if you get a response, one that you can actually record and prove, then you'll be famous and most likely rich.

just saying "God talks to me a lot" isn't verifying two-way communication.

 

[BennettStar]

except after beseeching (I love that word) the Prophets, the said fleet went poof!

The difference between prayer and communication is that communication is a two-way street, and both parties are real. Like Sisko, and the wormhole aliens.

Praying involves faith... faith that you're not just talking to your ceiling fan. What Sisko asked was no more "prayer" than when Picard would ask Q to "end this madness!" each and every time he appeared.

If you access the scene referred to BennettStar (I think youtube has it) "beseeching" is exactly what Sisko was doing, in terms of the tone of his voice and his choice of words. He was seriously asking for help from supernatural beings ... prayer.

Sisko: "...be gods. I need a miracle. Bajor needs a miracle. Stop those ships."

And BennettStar, spiritual communion with God is "two way."

Begging and using words with supernatural overtones does not a prayer make. If you're talking with someone, and they're responding, you know it's not prayer. The wormhole aliens are not supernatural simply because they have great power, much of which our limited existence has trouble understanding.

I know plenty of atheists who say "oh my God" or "God damn it" when they need an exclamation. Atheists also frequently use words like "miracle" to mean any improbable circumstance that leads to a positive outcome. In a time when superstition and religion in human culture is seen as "the dark ages," the word "god" itself has likely transformed its meaning to encompass any seemingly infinitely powerful being. Is that not what it already means? To a religious person, God would probably have a deeper, more personal meaning, but to a secular Humanist society such as the Federation, the word god is merely an easy way to describe any advance entity beyond our current understanding.

Sisko's complete statement was "You want to be gods? Then be gods!" That implies Sisko does not consider them gods, but is accusing them of "playing God." Much like an actor plays any fictional character. God happens to be a very well known fictional character, so the reference is easy to understand. He then challenges them to "be gods" because in this instance he is desperate for anything that will save Bajor, despite the fact that he finds "playing God" distasteful.

 

[Arpy]

Paradon, you're suggesting that there is a void in people because they are selfish and that humans having faith in god is selfless. That people use science or reason toward selfish ends. I think that selflessness is very scientific and reasonable - just that it doesn't get the same press as the wankery of the self above all. I think that in our most natural and best state, we would be both selfish for ourselves and selfless for others, that we would even find, as the Native Americans do, even inanimate objects "sacred" after a fashion. I don't think we'd be angels...we wouldn't be physically any different than we are today, or than our ancestors who raped and pillaged as a matter of course. But just have our priorities set straighter. Don't get me wrong. I don't think we should save rocks or whatever before people or think that we should not argue with or oppose each other till we're blue in the face, but I think we'll all be saner in the future if we try.

 

[Paradon]

You can go watch "Apocalypto" to see how paleolithic people behave. It's very gruesome! that is why most Native Americans now practice Christianity. They haven't abandoned their way, but simply intergrate Christianity into their cultures. Back then they're use to be human sacrifices and killing for revenge. They're not bad people, but they were primitive in someways. The Mayans were actually very sophisticated, but at the same time were very brutal. That's the way things were...killing and fighting were a necessity. That's why a lot cultures have abandoned that way of life.

 

[Arpy]

What I was getting at is that I think many of the religions and ways of life today will be seen as primitive in the future. And I hope they don't disregard us the way you just did all our ancestors.

 

[T'Girl]

The wormhole aliens are not supernatural simply because they have great power

No, the prophets are supernatural because they are not in any meaning of the word "natural." However they do meet the standard usage of the word supernatural, "exists outside natural law and the observable universe." The prophets exists (as I understand it) at all points in time simultaneously, outside of linear time, that alone is definitely supernatural.

... but to a secular Humanist society such as the Federation ...

The Federation as Humanist, we can all see that sure. But secular humanist? Where are you seeing this supposed secular in addendum to the obvious Humanist?

 

[Paradon]

What I was getting at is that I think many of the religions and ways of life today will be seen as primitive in the future. And I hope they don't disregard us the way you just did all our ancestors.

I said primitive paleolithic people; I did not say one word about them being less of a human than anybody else. That's what all the cultures around the world did...practicing human sacrifice rituals as offerings to the war gods. It is well documented throughout history. The Vikings would splay the back open without killing the enemies and pulled out the lungs and try to make them look like the wings on the back. You would have died a very slow and excruciating painful death. The Mayans were actually very sophisticated, but very brutal at the same time. That's how it was back then where killing and fighting was a necessity, not that they're bad or evil. It was simply a way of life. Not at all how Enterprise portray these people as being stupid and backward, who do not how to behave. That is why a lot of these major religions began to emerge to replace these ritual in order to fulfill the people's spiritual needs without killing anyone. That's why they part way with that kind of rituals. Most of the Native Americans have converted to Christianity while preserving their cultures. People have emotional needs and wants and I think a lot of people can't understand how much people really feel and devastating it can be. Just go watch "Apocalypto".... That is exactly what the humans were like before all these major religions.

 

[BennettStar]

The wormhole aliens are not supernatural simply because they have great power

No, the prophets are supernatural because they are not in any meaning of the word "natural." However they do meet the standard usage of the word supernatural, "exists outside natural law and the observable universe." The prophets exists (as I understand it) at all points in time simultaneously, outside of linear time, that alone is definitely supernatural.

... but to a secular Humanist society such as the Federation ...

The Federation as Humanist, we can all see that sure. But secular humanist? Where are you seeing this supposed secular in addendum to the obvious Humanist?

The supernatural world doesn't exist. The wormhole aliens are observable, capable of communication, and effect linear time, in a linear fashion. The lack of understanding that the wormhole aliens have for our existence is equal to our lack of understanding of theirs. The first episode shows Sisko teaching supposed "gods" about the nature of corporeal life. Effectively, too. Sisko learned more about the nature of their non-corporeal life as well, and both parties continue to learn about one another with each encounter. Each time we see the wormhole aliens, they seem to remember previous visits, as though it happened before, despite existing "outside of time and space." This could be because we only have a limited window in which to observe the wormhole aliens, and that window appears to move in a linear sense. But having a limited window of observation does not make anything supernatural, any more than the inside of an atom is supernatural.

On the second point, I see secularism in nearly every episode of Star Trek, where no God, no Jesus, and no prayer ever saves a single life. Where superstitious belief is shown, definitively in some cases, to be incredibly dangerous and undesirable. Where science and reason shape the precepts of the Federation's morality that is praised repeatedly through the drama of the story. Where no entity, no extraordinary circumstance is too fantastical to be explained through proper study, and all without mention of a supernatural world.

There's no accounting for all 150+ member worlds, but the criteria for membership are at least moderately demanding of each planet to achieve both scientific and moral maturity. Secular humanism would make a perfect standard to judge them against.

 

[T'Girl]

science and reason shape the precepts

Both contained within basic Humanism, and doesn't require a philosophy of "secular" humanism.

There's no accounting for all 150+ member worlds, but the criteria for membership are at least moderately demanding of each planet to achieve both scientific and moral maturity. Secular humanism would make a perfect standard to judge them against.

A better standard would be "just" Humanism, without the religiously restrictive nature of a secular humanist mindset. General Humanism neither considers or rejects metaphysical issues such as the existence or nonexistence of supernatural beings, and if a significant potion of the founding members of the federation possessed cultures with religious and spiritual faiths, secular humanism's particular philosophy might actually be specifically prohibited in the federation charter.

There are three strong canon proofs that Vulcans possess religious and/or spiritual faith, why would one of the founding members of the Federation - who likely had a hand in determining it's entry requirements - want there to be a membership criteria like "secular" humanism, with it's overt anti-religious theme? Especially as general Humanism so closely would seem to more fit their own philosophy. It would be illogical to formulate a Federation (that they were to be a part of) which included a stipulation to reject a part of their own culture as a condition of entry.

From the Federation Charter;
The Federation Council shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion or spiritual faith, in any venue. Nor shall there be a single required state belief.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

It always has been about people trying to make a better life despite all the bad things that is out there. That's what religions do for people. Call it intuition if you will...another part of them who still believe their is goodness in the world and maybe something good will come out of really bad situations. People sitting around feeling worthless, like they have no purpose and place in this universe, because of oppression by thugs and psychopaths. Most of the rulers and conquerors back then were psychopaths. These people had nothing better to do but to dream and some of them wrote about a better life, about God. That's how all these texts came into being. They have a powerful psychological impact on a lot of people who are desperate, people who feel their lives are going nowhere. That is why they are so popular today, more than ever. It's just another part of human intuition trying to make sense of things that they find unable to cope with otherwise...like having seeing children die or being sold into slavery.

Let's not forget that the Bible condones slavery.

You say religions will always be around, but even Trek has demonstrated that it doesn't have to be. You don't have to subscribe to it. Break the chains, my friend.

 

[Paradon]

Religions don't have to be here? Because of some TV show said so...? Oh, but it has to be considering how people can get if left up to there own device. Greed will destroy people if there was no religions. Man has a hole in the heart that cannot be filled. He yearn for more and more until there is no more. It is religions that fill this hole, void. That's what spirituality and religions are all about. Most people simplify the problem and blame everything on religions. People don't understand that what you want is what drive people to do things. Why do we do things? Because of want...that is the motive behind every person. Sometimes we want things so badly that we forget about morality and ethics. That's what drove Sisko to seek Garack's helps in order to bring the Romulans into the war on their side by bombing the shuttle and blaming it on the Dominions. You can stand on your soap box, but the truth is people will always mess up. If yu said you haven't, then you are lying. This why a lot of people seek spiritual enligthenment.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Religions don't fill the hole... They just make people think they do. You don't need religion to make you feel good. It's a crutch

 

[Kegg]

The Federation as Humanist, we can all see that sure. But secular humanist? Where are you seeing this supposed secular in addendum to the obvious Humanist?

There is no reference to an even nominal state religion, nor any indication that a character's religion has bearing on the function of their job. Religion is treated as a private matter which may inform personal judgements, including professionally, but is not enforced, standardized, or coercive.

So yes, for all intents and purposes the Federation is a secular society, and as observed, is also a humanist society.

 

[Arpy]

^ a crutch that is necessary for many. I'd rather sit next to an amiable Christian than an asshole atheist.

The Federation charter? Isn't that a cut/paste of the UN charter from one of the books? Nice idea, but to Earth-centric for me.