Star Trek 4 Hits A Snag

[F. King Daniel]

Definitely on the nose!

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[JKM]

The film had a dedication to post-9/11 veterans in the credits, which makes it awkward that the film was written by a 9/11 Truther. One can try dismissing those 9/11 truther allusions Orci planted by pointing out the corrupt Admiral trope, but that just shows how clever Orci can be, using Trek tropes to shield his Truther messages. When can always debate the quality of his screenwriting abilities, but one can't deny how savvy he is at times.

I don't find the dedication awkward no matter if he was a 'truther' or not. I evaluate films by their own merits and not the possible political beliefs of whoever created them. I seriously think it's stretching to think Orci was trying to send some type of subliminal message. Did he use it as inspiration? Maybe so, but again if he did it doesn't bother me. If he did, it made for a good story.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

That's fine and all. I still personally find it off putting.

 

[Rahul]

That theory always amused me with the haters. On one hand they claim they ripped off TWoK and on the other, they claim it was a movie about a conspiracy theory of 9/11 if memory serves. I always wished they'd make up their minds. Not that any of it makes a lick of sense to me, since I've seen quite a few Star Trek episodes across the board about dirty Admirals. Though to be fair, I really don't care if it is influenced by that since it makes for a good story.

This is not an either-or thing.
Like, the meat of the conspiracy story of Into Darkness was Bob Orci's truther-bullshit gone wild - then thankfully neutered by Hollywood executives who don't necessarily want such fringe extremes stuff in their mainstream media.
"Ripping off TWOK" happened when they took what was the emotional climax of TWOK, and put it verbatum as the emotional climax in their movie.
A movie can be about more than two things at once. In this case - a rip-off sprinkled with some fringe far right conspiracy nutjob ramblings. Thankfully streamlined by Hollywood to the point it's (mostly) not offensive anymore.
But still...

 

[JKM]

This is not an either-or thing.
Like, the meat of the conspiracy story of Into Darkness was Bob Orci's truther-bullshit gone wild - then thankfully neutered by Hollywood executives who don't necessarily want such fringe extremes stuff in their mainstream media.
"Ripping off TWOK" happened when they took what was the emotional climax of TWOK, and put it verbatum as the emotional climax in their movie.
A movie can be about more than two things at once. In this case - a rip-off sprinkled with some fringe far right conspiracy nutjob ramblings. Thankfully streamlined by Hollywood to the point it's (mostly) not offensive anymore.
But still...

I didn't say it couldn't. What I was trying to say is they were claiming it was an exact rip off then turned around in the same breath and said it was a conspiracy theory movie. If it's an exact rip-off then that would TWoK a conspiracy movie. Which is amusing.

I don't really care either way. Since it is a reboot and not a remake, I didn't have a problem with similarities to TWoK. It's not entirely 'out there' that the same events would happen in a different manner in an alternate universe thus explaining these similarities. And I still don't see the end scene being at all similar except in that the two characters were involved with a warp core and one died. The conversation and the whole arc of said character was entirely different, including the character who died. Could have totally done without Spock yelling Khan which I understand fans not liking. Would've been perfect if he'd just screamed in anguish, if he had to, instead of saying Khan's name.

 

[Ovation]

I didn't say it couldn't. What I was trying to say is they were claiming it was an exact rip off then turned around in the same breath and said it was a conspiracy theory movie. If it's an exact rip-off then that would TWoK a conspiracy movie. Which is amusing.

I don't really care either way. Since it is a reboot and not a remake, I didn't have a problem with similarities to TWoK. It's not entirely 'out there' that the same events would happen in a different manner in an alternate universe thus explaining these similarities. And I still don't see the end scene being at all similar except in that the two characters were involved with a warp core and one died. The conversation and the whole arc of said character was entirely different, including the character who died. Could have totally done without Spock yelling Khan which I understand fans not liking. Would've been perfect if he'd just screamed in anguish, if he had to, instead of saying Khan's name.

I agree with just about all of this. As for Spock's yell--it unavoidably suffers in comparison to the original from a fan perspective, but having seen each on its initial cinematic run, (and the older one dozens of times), I would argue, in a vacuum, Spock had a more valid "in-story excuse" for the Khan-yell than Kirk did.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I didn't say it couldn't. What I was trying to say is they were claiming it was an exact rip off then turned around in the same breath and said it was a conspiracy theory movie. If it's an exact rip-off then that would TWoK a conspiracy movie. Which is amusing.

I’m not really understanding your point. Are you saying critics can’t make ADDITIONAL comments on a film after calling it a rip off of TWOK? A film can’t try to be mutually exclusive things simultaneously?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Gee I thought being crazy was a part requirement to be a Starfleet admiral.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

 

[Enterprise is Great]

What the hell did happen to Orci? It seemed so abrupt. I would assume the negative reception of THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2 was a factor, but Kurtzman is still working, albiet more on television than films, especially after THE MUMMY bombing. Given how Orci interacted with fans, I assume he burned a lot of bridges within the Hollywood system as well?

Roberto Orci Boards ‘Galaga’ Animated TV Show

Doesn't sound too promising. Video games never seem to work as tv shows or movies.

 

[Malaika]

That's all a different matter. I can see why Cumberbatch was cast beyond those racial implications, because of his performance as Sherlock. In that show I can see what the producers might have seen, in that show he's much more like Montalban's Khan with his superiority complex, arrogance, and swagger, the only difference is that he doesn't have ambition to, ya know, rule as a dictator. Ultimately they went for a different take with the Khan in STID that Cumberbatch played the character with a more portentous bent.

The issue is that the character originally was just John Harrison or Robert April, so different casting options weren't thought with Khan in mind, thus a person of color. Lindelof insisted they turned the character into Khan and at that point, Orci didn't feel comfortable casting a poc for the role of, well, a terrorist. This I understand but they still ended up whitewashing an iconic villain. Had them done that in more recent years, the backlash would've probably hurt stid success more than it did back then.

the irony is that the comics, at the time approved by Orci, gave a depth explanation about why he is white and even made it part of his conflict and why he hates Marcus&Co so much.
In short, they changed his appearance on purpose and he makes a point that they erased everything he was effectively cancelling his identity in more ways than one. That exacerbated his insanity too because imagine waking up one day and you look into the mirror and you can't see your own image anymore because they had replaced it with a completely different guy.
It's too bad they didn't put this extra layer and explanation in the movie.

 

[Rahul]

I didn't say it couldn't. What I was trying to say is they were claiming it was an exact rip off then turned around in the same breath and said it was a conspiracy theory movie. If it's an exact rip-off then that would TWoK a conspiracy movie. Which is amusing.

Well, Into Darkness in it's entirety really isn't a knock-off of TWOK. Not like, say, Force Awakens was a "homage-gone-too-far" of A New Hope.

But that single scene in the reactor chamber? Yeah. It was a scene that was a complete knock-off.

Now in this case, YMMV. Massively. I personally, for example, don't have a problem with remixing single scenes from older movies and set them into new contexts. Hell, Quentin Tarantino built an entire career out of that!

The problem - for me - was that it wasn't just a simple scene they remixed - like, say, they did in ST09, with Kirk eating an apple while cheating Kubayashi Maru, which was a great homage to the scene in TWOK. But that they took what was the entire emotional climax - more than the fight with Khan - the culmination of the Kirk-Spock-friendship, the ultimate sacrifice - that they took THAT scene, and essentially only replayed it. That they built the entire structure of Into Darkness (otherwise a very different film), to culminate on that very same moment, under the very same circumstances, and with the same larger themes. For me personally, simply switching Kirk and Spock's roles was not enough of a change to make that scene work. Thus - for me - it completely fell flat. Which is a bad thing for the emotional climax of a movie.

But this is personal - someone else might not have had that problem with that scene, and for them the rest of the movie around then works as well. For me, it was just too close - not a "homage" anymore (like that apple scene in ST09), but a "rip-off" - not because it's completely identical, but because it's the same basic scene - the same set-up, the same solution, and the same larger theme. And it was a shame that the rest of the movie - which could have been more interesting in it's own right - was basically reverse-engineered to end at that place, instead of ending on it's own idea.

 

[JKM]

Well, Into Darkness in it's entirety really isn't a knock-off of TWOK. Not like, say, Force Awakens was a "homage-gone-too-far" of A New Hope.

But that single scene in the reactor chamber? Yeah. It was a scene that was a complete knock-off.

Now in this case, YMMV. Massively. I personally, for example, don't have a problem with remixing single scenes from older movies and set them into new contexts. Hell, Quentin Tarantino built an entire career out of that!

The problem - for me - was that it wasn't just a simple scene they remixed - like, say, they did in ST09, with Kirk eating an apple while cheating Kubayashi Maru, which was a great homage to the scene in TWOK. But that they took what was the entire emotional climax - more than the fight with Khan - the culmination of the Kirk-Spock-friendship, the ultimate sacrifice - that they took THAT scene, and essentially only replayed it. That they built the entire structure of Into Darkness (otherwise a very different film), to culminate on that very same moment, under the very same circumstances, and with the same larger themes. For me personally, simply switching Kirk and Spock's roles was not enough of a change to make that scene work. Thus - for me - it completely fell flat. Which is a bad thing for the emotional climax of a movie.

But this is personal - someone else might not have had that problem with that scene, and for them the rest of the movie around then works as well. For me, it was just too close - not a "homage" anymore (like that apple scene in ST09), but a "rip-off" - not because it's completely identical, but because it's the same basic scene - the same set-up, the same solution, and the same larger theme. And it was a shame that the rest of the movie - which could have been more interesting in it's own right - was basically reverse-engineered to end at that place, instead of ending on it's own idea.

It worked for me because I thought it was instrumental in Kirk's character arc. I saw the TWoK scene dealing with Prime Kirk having always 'cheated' death and having to deal with what happens when you can't. However this could have been anybody and not necessarily Spock.

I actually see Nu-Kirk's experience as more necessary for the character than the original. Kirk was rebellious, thought he could never lose or lose crew because he was just that good, added to that are his Daddy issues where he clearly did not understand his father's choice/sacrifice. For me STID was the building up to THAT moment where he realized how wrong he was and what sacrifice meant and why someone makes that choice. They then tied that into Spock's arc nicely where he was learning what it meant to be 'friend' which hinged on Kirk kicking the bucket. It grew both characters, whereas in TWoK I only saw Prime Kirk come out of it with character growth. Just my take on that though.

 

[JKM]

I agree with just about all of this. As for Spock's yell--it unavoidably suffers in comparison to the original from a fan perspective, but having seen each on its initial cinematic run, (and the older one dozens of times), I would argue, in a vacuum, Spock had a more valid "in-story excuse" for the Khan-yell than Kirk did.

Good point, I keep forgetting in TWoK Kirk didn't yell that after Spock died, but on the asteroid which struck me as weird on first viewing. Though I think Spock just yelling in anguish would have appeased some of the fans who had issue with that or saw it as a rip-off that was not warranted. Then again, maybe not.

 

[JKM]

I’m not really understanding your point. Are you saying critics can’t make ADDITIONAL comments on a film after calling it a rip off of TWOK? A film can’t try to be mutually exclusive things simultaneously?

Can't be any clearer than I've already been and to be honest I feel like you're trying to bait me here. The comments I'm referencing were seen back in 2013 and not on this board. They were fans basically flaming to troll those who liked STID. They weren't fans thoughtfully critiquing a film which is why I called them haters. I don't feel it necessary to defend my perception of them five years later.

 

[fireproof78]

I actually see Nu-Kirk's experience as more necessary for the character than the original. Kirk was rebellious, thought he could never lose or lose crew because he was just that good, added to that are his Daddy issues where he clearly did not understand his father's choice/sacrifice. For me STID was the building up to THAT moment where he realized how wrong he was and what sacrifice meant and why someone makes that choice. They then tied that into Spock's arc nicely where he was learning what it meant to be 'friend' which hinged on Kirk kicking the bucket. It grew both characters, whereas in TWoK I only saw Prime Kirk come out of it with character growth. Just my take on that though.

Same here. I thought that the scene worked well precisely because of Kirk's journey. He was arrogant about his own abilities, and his seeming invincibleness. He didn't understand why someone would want to die, like Spock did at the beginning of the film. By the end, Kirk is forced to make the choice between him and Scotty and Kirk is not willing (yet) to allow a crew member and a friend to die. "I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I only know what I can do."

 

[Ethros]

While we're talking about parts of ID we didn't like, my own is one I don't see get brought up that much.
That Quinto-Spock asks Nimoy-Spock how did they originally defeat Khan, and it cuts away before he answers. Then at the end of the movie, Quinto-Spock defeats Khan by... chasing him for a bit and then repeatedly bashing him over the head with a spanner or whatever.... and that was it.

I remember sitting there like wtf? Ah no cunning "his pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking" or something clever along those lines. Nah, just hit him over the head. Real genius writing

 

[JKM]

While we're talking about parts of ID we didn't like, my own is one I don't see get brought up that much.
That Quinto-Spock asks Nimoy-Spock how did they originally defeat Khan, and it cuts away before he answers. Then at the end of the movie, Quinto-Spock defeats Khan by... chasing him for a bit and then repeatedly bashing him over the head with a spanner or whatever.... and that was it.

I remember sitting there like wtf? Ah no cunning "his pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking" or something clever along those lines. Nah, just hit him over the head. Real genius writing

I think you may have taken a bathroom break at a critical moment.
The cunning was Spock taking Khan's crew out of the Torpedoes and stashing them and then arming the bombs and 'Vulcan's can not lie. The Torpedoes are yours.' He didn't expect Khan to survive that. Hence Sulu's 'There's no way he survived,' comment. The rest was just a seriously pissed off Vulcan who had lost too much reverting to his passionate ancestry and when all else fails beating the shit out of him.

 

[fireproof78]

I think you may have taken a bathroom break at a critical moment.
The cunning was Spock taking Khan's crew out of the Torpedoes and stashing them and then arming the bombs and 'Vulcan's can not lie. The Torpedoes are yours.' He didn't expect Khan to survive that. Hence Sulu's 'There's no way he survived,' comment. The rest was just a seriously pissed off Vulcan who had lost too much reverting to his passionate ancestry and when all else fails beating the shit out of him.

Something we've seen Spock do a time or two in TOS.

 

[BillJ]

That Quinto-Spock asks Nimoy-Spock...

My biggest problem with the film. Nimoy passed the torch in Star Trek (2009), I really wanted to see this Spock be clever on his own.