ST3: Why I love it

[2takesfrakes]

There is absolutely no reason for Kirk to want to go to Genesis, he doesn't know that Spock is alive!

Sarek informed Kirk that he had to bring Spock & Bones to Mt. Seleya, as "... only there, can both find peace." Sarek never once clarifies why Spock's body is required. Nor does he imply that he knows, or believes, that Spock's body lives. It could even give the impression that Sarek simply wants Spock buried on Vulcan. Yes ... it is a major plot hole, however you slice it.

But Harve Bennette, who wrote the script, was put into an awkard position, though. On one hand, there's the broken triad of Kirk/Spock/Bones. Without Spock's logic, Kirk is more inclined to follow an irrational course of action. Secondly, this movie is trying to do something that couldn't happen in the series. It's trying to take STAR TREK to a different area of character study and that's to show Kirk & Company having gone rogue. This has never happened, before. And the reason behind it is the bonds of friendship ... of family. We sometimes do things for our family that we'd never do for ourselves.

And when the shit hits the fan, we hope against hope that the impossible can happen, especially when a loved-one's Life is at stake. For all of these reasons, and possibly more, Sarek persuades Kirk to search for Spock. Yes, it would've been nice to have Grissom inform Starfleet that Spock's body lives and bring him back home, but ... all of that popcorn was at stake. So, Harve went for the "it's just a movie" justification and wrote his story, anyway.

 

[Longinus]

Sarek informed Kirk that he had to bring Spock & Bones to Mt. Seleya, as "... only there, can both find peace." Sarek never once clarifies why Spock's body is required. Nor does he imply that he knows, or believes, that Spock's body lives. It could even give the impression that Sarek simply wants Spock buried on Vulcan. Yes ... it is a major plot hole, however you slice it.

But Harve Bennette, who wrote the script, was put into an awkard position, though. On one hand, there's the broken triad of Kirk/Spock/Bones. Without Spock's logic, Kirk is more inclined to follow an irrational course of action. Secondly, this movie is trying to do something that couldn't happen in the series. It's trying to take STAR TREK to a different area of character study and that's to show Kirk & Company having gone rogue. This has never happened, before. And the reason behind it is the bonds of friendship ... of family. We sometimes do things for our family that we'd never do for ourselves.

And when the shit hits the fan, we hope against hope that the impossible can happen, especially when a loved-one's Life is at stake. For all of these reasons, and possibly more, Sarek persuades Kirk to search for Spock. Yes, it would've been nice to have Grissom inform Starfleet that Spock's body lives and bring him back home, but ... all of that popcorn was at stake. So, Harve went for the "it's just a movie" justification and wrote his story, anyway.

Certainly Sarek only wanted McCoy and Spock's katra brought to Vulcan? Why would they need the useless corpse? And if the Vulcan's would have some tradition about always returning their bodies to the home planet, there is no fucking way the Starfleet wouldn't know about it. Humans and Vulcans had been in contact over three hundred years at that point, several Vulcans had served in the Starfleet, and I'm sure many more worked and lived on human planets. Hell, Saavik is right there at the funeral; even if everyone else had completely failed to register such a basic tradition of the Vulcan culture, she would know!

And yes, I can see Kirk acting in desperation, but the justification for his actions is not even thin, it is pretty much non-existent. Instead of leap of faith, it is just utter madness!

 

[Timo]

We shouldn't assume Starfleet knows much about Vulcans. After all, not only do we directly observe that Starfleet (McCoy, Kirk, everybody in "Amok Time", really) does not - we hear Starfleet (Morrow) dismiss such knowledge as irrelevant "mumbo-jumbo".

Supposedly, all Vulcan basic traditions are dark and well-kept secrets, because it's shameful for a logical culture to have traditions. After all, that's what Spock quotes as the reason for the secrecy on Vulcan mating: it's not that sex would be naughty, but that an illogical way of choosing one's mate reduces the exalted Vulcan culture to the level of a baboon pride.

As for Sarek's request being illogical, he never asks for Spock's corpse, only for the "one dead". Supposedly, then, he still wants just his katra. But Kirk and Sarek both know the same things about Genesis (Sarek read Kirk's reports, no doubt including the confidential bits), and Kirk can be assumed to further have access to the Grissom progress reports and a keen interest in them. The plan to drag the corpse along could occur to them right after the filmed part of their conversation. Sarek isn't a traditionalist (he mates with alien animal women, after all), and Kirk wants his friend back in whole, not just in part. And the rest sort of naturally flows from the premise: getting McCoy to Vulcan suddenly becomes illegal per se, so the further detour to Genesis is not much of an extra complication.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[somebuddyX]

I think TSFS is brilliant in some places and mediocre in others and that's why I find it more disappointing than Insurrection or Nemesis which I find pretty garbage.

 

[Longinus]

We shouldn't assume Starfleet knows much about Vulcans. After all, not only do we directly observe that Starfleet (McCoy, Kirk, everybody in "Amok Time", really) does not - we hear Starfleet (Morrow) dismiss such knowledge as irrelevant "mumbo-jumbo".

Supposedly, all Vulcan basic traditions are dark and well-kept secrets, because it's shameful for a logical culture to have traditions. After all, that's what Spock quotes as the reason for the secrecy on Vulcan mating: it's not that sex would be naughty, but that an illogical way of choosing one's mate reduces the exalted Vulcan culture to the level of a baboon pride.

Saavik is right there at the funeral! As I said if Vulcans had some tradition about returning the body to the home soil, she would have told Kirk, even if he wouldn't have otherwise known (which is already implausible itself.)

As for Sarek's request being illogical, he never asks for Spock's corpse, only for the "one dead". Supposedly, then, he still wants just his katra. But Kirk and Sarek both know the same things about Genesis (Sarek read Kirk's reports, no doubt including the confidential bits), and Kirk can be assumed to further have access to the Grissom progress reports and a keen interest in them. The plan to drag the corpse along could occur to them right after the filmed part of their conversation. Sarek isn't a traditionalist (he mates with alien animal women, after all), and Kirk wants his friend back in whole, not just in part. And the rest sort of naturally flows from the premise: getting McCoy to Vulcan suddenly becomes illegal per se, so the further detour to Genesis is not much of an extra complication.

So reason to go to Genesis was what?

 

[Smellmet]

I think TSFS is brilliant in some places and mediocre in others and that's why I find it more disappointing than Insurrection or Nemesis which I find pretty garbage.

So you find a film that's brilliant in some parts and mediocre in others more disappointing than two films you find to be garbage? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I do agree with you to a certain extent though, the spacedock scenes, stealing the enterprise, and klingon encounters are all excellent. I find the end of the film a drag though, from Bones talking to unconscious Spock onwards.

 

[Paradise City]

The mind meld is the big thing isn't? If a dying Vulcan can transmit his katra via the mind meld, then we're good to go. Saavik would've known the circumstances with Spock's death and presumed that the barrier, as Spock stood dying, would've prevented any such M M. Saavik may have even gently quizzed the Admiral about any contact before Spock's death and when he said 'no' politely dropped the matter without actually conveying the significance of a MM in these circumstances

Sarek himself seems to have misunderstood the actual circumstances because he apologised to Kirk after his MM with him.

I mean it is tough to iron over the problem of why Spock's body is so important. They should've perhaps inserted some mystery-emergency dialogue were a distraught Sarek insists on going back to Genesis without precisely defining why but communicating the sense of urgency via the mind meld. I dunno.

I think Star Trek III is great from start to finish. Kruge is cool, the crew coming together to break the law for one last of act of solidarity, the Enterprise escaping, Genesis dying is as well made as you can get for the era, Kirk losing his son and the ship are both very real traumas and even at the end a slow ceremony creates the suspense when Spock does emerge from the ceremony and touches hands with his pals. There are some middle sized plot holes, lol, but it's an enormously satisfactory film for me overall.

 

[Timo]

Saavik is right there at the funeral! As I said if Vulcans had some tradition about returning the body to the home soil, she would have told Kirk, even if he wouldn't have otherwise known (which is already implausible itself.)

Why? In "Amok Time", Spock didn't want to tell Kirk facts that were absolutely vital to the Vulcan's immediate personal survival. Saavik isn't even facing her own death here, so why go square?

And it's not as if we should have a continuity problem here anyway. Spock's body does not require shipment to Vulcan by tradition - only his katra does. And there's no point in discussing the katra with outsiders, much less with insiders, nor any way to infer whether something's amiss regarding katra delivery just by observing the disposal of Spock's carcass.

It's Spock's own damn fault anyway, really, if anything untoward happens. Clearly, the katra can be uploaded without this resulting in the person immediately dropping dead; Spock could have made his backup at any point, and Saavik would assume he did. And indeed she would be 100% correct.

So reason to go to Genesis was what?

To get the rejuvenated body of Spock, the existence of which could now be inferred from the Grissom transmissions that both Kirk and Sarek would be interested in accessing. That addition to the original plan (of getting Spock's katra from Kirk's head, and failing that, from McCoy's noggin) would have been hatched off-camera, alas, but that doesn't make it any less reasonable as such.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

Loved the film, my only regret is that David Marcus was killed, I wanted him to face charges for his screw-ups and have him stripped of his doctorate.

 

[Longinus]

To get the rejuvenated body of Spock, the existence of which could now be inferred from the Grissom transmissions that both Kirk and Sarek would be interested in accessing. That addition to the original plan (of getting Spock's katra from Kirk's head, and failing that, from McCoy's noggin) would have been hatched off-camera, alas, but that doesn't make it any less reasonable as such.

Except nothing like this happens and there is no indication that Kirk knows that Spock is alive until being told this at Genesis.

 

[Timo]

Nothing like this is shown happening, but there'd be no good reason for these two relatively highly positioned men with personal and professional stakes not to be informed as suggested.

Nobody really knows that Spock is alive until Saavik finds him, and the Klingons jam transmissions at that point. But the data from which his rejuvenation could be deduced is there for Sarek and Kirk to ponder, and Kirk already had the very concept in mind at the end of the previous movie - he told us as much. His return to Genesis was going to happen even before Sarek's visit.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vger23]

Certainly Sarek only wanted McCoy and Spock's katra brought to Vulcan? Why would they need the useless corpse? And if the Vulcan's would have some tradition about always returning their bodies to the home planet, there is no fucking way the Starfleet wouldn't know about it. Humans and Vulcans had been in contact over three hundred years at that point, several Vulcans had served in the Starfleet, and I'm sure many more worked and lived on human planets. Hell, Saavik is right there at the funeral; even if everyone else had completely failed to register such a basic tradition of the Vulcan culture, she would know!

And yes, I can see Kirk acting in desperation, but the justification for his actions is not even thin, it is pretty much non-existent. Instead of leap of faith, it is just utter madness!

Best part about this is I don't give a shit about any of it because its such a damn fun and entertaining adventure for our favorite family.

 

[Vorpal_Blade]

I really enjoyed TSFS. It had some emotional scenes in it. The death of the Enterprise, McCoy telling Spock how much he missed him, the death of Kirk's son. I think out of all of them the death of the Enterprise hit me hardest. I grew up watching that ship take our heroes through all manner of encounters. To se it explode and then enter the atmosphere of Genesis burning like a meteor was heartbreaking. It did though, give it a fitting death. Kind of like a Viking funeral pyre.

 

[somebuddyX]

So you find a film that's brilliant in some parts and mediocre in others more disappointing than two films you find to be garbage? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I do agree with you to a certain extent though, the spacedock scenes, stealing the enterprise, and klingon encounters are all excellent. I find the end of the film a drag though, from Bones talking to unconscious Spock onwards.

I think it's because (in my opinion) it shows so much potential but doesn't act on it, whereas the other films are kinda awful and boring it's hard to get annoyed with them. It's probably unfair but the bar is set so high by TWOK that TSFS can't help but feel somewhat disappointing. It's like Return of the Jedi as compared to The Empire Strikes Back (kinda) I guess.

 

[publiusr]

And yes, I can see Kirk acting in desperation, but the justification for his actions is not even thin, it is pretty much non-existent. Instead of leap of faith, it is just utter madness!

An obsession--bring him home one way or other.

 

[Timo]

It's a good time for Kirk to get obsessed. He has just woken from his years of desk job sturpor, only to have "his" starship scrapped from beneath his feet. He then gets told he can't go to Genesis because politics/racism/superior officer. But the father of his dear late friend is putting pressure on him, indeed flinging accusations; no doubt he feels a bit betrayed by Spock trustring McCoy over himself, too. Sounds like the right time to do something naughty, and if it can be combined with something beneficial, that's a bonus.

What makes less plot sense is why Kirk thought he should come back to Genesis "one day", and then sailed away. What was wrong with that day? Was the planet still in too much flux for anybody to risk a beam-down?

The wording at the end of ST2 makes it sound as if Kirk is intending to return a few years later to see whether Spock's body has turned into a beautiful little tree, but it could also be taken to mean he wants to return next Wednesday, with more concrete goals. Why the delay? Well, he says he's going to pick up the crew of the Reliant, which is a duty he can't dodge on a hunch. And when we next see him, his ship has received extra damage, there's been a partial crew transfer, and he's heading to Earth. So we could well go with the next Wednesday model here, and assume that Kirk faced a minor setback between the movies and really, really didn't expect it to be compounded by further bumps.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

The thing that TSFS has going for it, that sets it apart from all the other TOS movies, and makes it a great experience imho, is that it is the only one that isn't about something, i.e. a space probe, a nemesis, or an intergalactic debacle. It's just about them... their relationships to one another, their dynamic, their bond. It practically founded the notion that these people are more than just a crew, they're a family. Granted, that notion began happening in TWoK, but not nearly as fully explored as it is in 3.

TWoK made me fall in love with Star Trek all over again. TSFS made me fall in love with the people that Star Trek is about. That was, what I believe to be, a deliberate payout for the overwhelming adoration shown to its predecessor. It's like they said "Wow, they really liked this gang. So that's what we give them". In that sense, TVH was almost predestined, as a victory lap... just a fun little romp with the people & concept we love

 

[Vger23]

Anyone who judges the merits of TSFS based on implausible plot developments and ill-defined motivations needs to go back and re-evaluate their appreciation for the entire franchise.

Seriously

 

[Green]

Butrick's acting was a big step down from TWOK. Why? Nimoy didn't care - he was only there to die.
Saavik was boring as f**k. Why? Nimoy was stuck with her by Bennett's script and he gutted her character.
Everyone in Starfleet is moronic. Why? It makes our crew seem smarter.
The planet looked like garbage. Why? Because despite record profit from TWOK they wanted to make a quick cheapie to cash in on Spock's death/return.
Kruge is not imposing, scary or charismatic. Why? Because they wanted a name -- not an actor who was right for the part.

 

[Mojochi]

Butrick's acting was a big step down from TWOK. Why? Nimoy didn't care - he was only there to die.
Saavik was boring as f**k. Why? Nimoy was stuck with her by Bennett's script and he gutted her character.
Everyone in Starfleet is moronic. Why? It makes our crew seem smarter.
The planet looked like garbage. Why? Because despite record profit from TWOK they wanted to make a quick cheapie to cash in on Spock's death/return.
Kruge is not imposing, scary or charismatic. Why? Because they wanted a name -- not an actor who was right for the part.

And the hilarious thing is that as right as all that stuff is, it doesn't matter, because the main cast is so damn enjoyable lol