ST09's Kobayashi Maru Test

[The Wormhole]

Did Spock prime have a hand in developing the parameters of the test in the prime universe, as nuSpock did?

Presumably not. Spock does say in TWOK when he's dying that he never did take the test and asks what Kirk thinks of his actions as a solution. Not once is it indicated he is in fact the one who developed the test. Hell, at that time in the Prime Universe, Spock would have been serving on the Enterprise with Pike.

 

[WebLurker]

It could also be c) as I said, an opportunity for the test subject to psyche themselves up and get into captain mode. It's not like you're napping in the captain's chair, dreaming about when you were 5 years old and all of a sudden you wake up to the Maru in trouble.

Maybe. I'm not sure if the movies clearly indicated if cadets knew that the test was impossible or not. On one hand, Saavik seemed kind of steamed at the end of it in TWOK. Her complaint that it wasn't a fair test seemed to suggest that she was expecting a chance to win, as if she was expecting a fair chance to win. On the other hand, in Star Trek (2009), Kirk and McCoy discuss the test in detail when Kirk wants a third go, as if the details are known to the cadets.

If it was known to the cadets, I could see your suggestion working. In fact, the '09 movie uses a similar suggestion of the test's purposes, to what you suggested.

Did Spock prime have a hand in developing the parameters of the test in the prime universe, as nuSpock did?

Not officially confirmed either way. I think that the writers of Trek (2009) said that they thought this could be an overlapping event in both timelines, but didn't "officially" endorse it, much less make it canon. However, given the very different natures of the tests in both timelines, Spock Prime's comment that he never took it in TWOK, and the different outcomes of Kirk's cheating, I find it unlikely that Spock Prime designed the test in his universe. However, I don't think it would compromise the franchise's internal consistency if we ever learn otherwise.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Yes, after he realized the whole thing was an unwinnable joke, he decided to stick it to the man.

And that's the point of the test. Kobayashi Maru doesn't just test character in battle, it goes meta as well - tests the cadet's response to the test itself. In a way, the Admiralty might even secretly praise cadets who cheat like Kirk did. Because that's true officer thinking - not to blindly accept everything thrown at you, but to "think outside the bridge" as it were.

Of course Starfleet wouldn't admit that they approved of Kirk's cheating, but in the end, they were probably praising him. In one SNW story, about Kirk Prime's taking of the test (where he cheats), he says something like "It's a test of character? Well, I don't like to lose. THAT's my character."

 

[Noname Given]

Presumably not. Spock does say in TWOK when he's dying that he never did take the test and asks what Kirk thinks of his actions as a solution. Not once is it indicated he is in fact the one who developed the test. Hell, at that time in the Prime Universe, Spock would have been serving on the Enterprise with Pike.

Just because Spock never took the test himself ( which is Spock's line from STII:TWoK); we have no proof one way or the other that he did/didn't have a hand in designing it. In fact if he did design it; that may be the reason he never took it. (IE what would be the point since he knows EXACTLY what it is? As for Spock serving with Pike; in ST09 - he was.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, I'm going to assume that Nicholas Meyer, Harve Bennett or Jack Sowards didn't intend Spock to have designed the test otherwise it would be stated. Besides, not everything need be the same in the two timelines.

 

[WebLurker]

If Spock Prime didn't design the test, that could explain the differences in the test between TWOK and the '09 movie.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

McCoy says Kirk failed twice before being ultimately successful. I wonder what Kirk's failures looked like?

 

[Peach Wookiee]

His ship blew up... he was making out with someone when the crucial moment came... you decide, lol.

 

[locutus101]

Personally, I don't see a point to that test. When you know that something is not real you're not affected the same way as when you know it is.

 

[WebLurker]

Personally, I don't see a point to that test. When you know that something is not real you're not affected the same way as when you know it is.

That's one reason I like the character test version from TWOK better than the fear test from the '09 movie. The former would be more accurate even if the cadet knew it wasn't real. It also provides more interesting fodder for the books (even if their introduction of the first character to beat it without cheating got old really fast.)

 

[locutus101]

That's one reason I like the character test version from TWOK better than the fear test from the '09 movie. The former would be more accurate even if the cadet knew it wasn't real. It also provides more interesting fodder for the books (even if their introduction of the first character to beat it without cheating got old really fast.)

I agree. It sounded better in TWOK.

 

[Timo]

The concept of a test that is the same every time is rather limiting...

If it really involves a Kobayashi Maru every time, we should see a look of recognition on Saavik's face (and hear the "...Damn." gasp) when the name gets mentioned the first time in the simulation. Saavik shouldn't be ignorant of the existence of the famed "Kobayashi Maru test". That is, if it existed: TWoK keeps it vague, only referring to the repeated use of a "no-win scenario", which involves "rescuing the ship", and allows for the scenario to be drastically different from cadet to cadet (or lieutenant to lieutenant for that matter). Although of course Kirk might have chosen to throw at Saavik the exact same scenario he himself once faced, just to celebrate the anniversary or whatnot.

McCoy in the 2009 movie in turn leaves nothing unclear about it always being about the Kobayashi Maru. Although of course it might be that there are multiple final exams to the command course, and the only one of interest is the one Kirk is planning on retaking - the one with the reputation of being unwinnable.

Spock in both universes might well be the guy who designed the especially sadistic Kobayashi Maru scenario, as opposed to all those other no-win scenarios that don't feature his trademark vessel-in-distress. For all we know, Spock in both universes did take such a test, only not the exact one he would later design that would be associated with the ship name.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[OpenMaw]

That's one reason I like the character test version from TWOK better than the fear test from the '09 movie. The former would be more accurate even if the cadet knew it wasn't real. It also provides more interesting fodder for the books (even if their introduction of the first character to beat it without cheating got old really fast.)

Yeah. I did love the audio book where the crew are stranded in a shuttle recounting their cracks at the test. Sulu's in particular was quite... touching. Just like in TWOK, it was used to show us something about each character. Which is all the test is for both narratively and in-universe. This is a test that let's the admiralty see what kind of a captain you are. It's almost like an interactive thought experiment.

And I really wish they had shown Kirk failing the test at least once. Then again my version of ST 09 would have been very very different from what we got.

If it really involves a Kobayashi Maru every time, we should see a look of recognition on Saavik's face (and hear the "...Damn." gasp) when the name gets mentioned the first time in the simulation. Saavik shouldn't be ignorant of the existence of the famed "Kobayashi Maru test". That is, if it existed: TWoK keeps it vague, only referring to the repeated use of a "no-win scenario", which involves "rescuing the ship", and allows for the scenario to be drastically different from cadet to cadet (or lieutenant to lieutenant for that matter). Although of course Kirk might have chosen to throw at Saavik the exact same scenario he himself once faced, just to celebrate the anniversary or whatnot

Later use of the test seems to forget that point, actually. In the novel I mentioned they make it pretty clear that the test is supposed to be, basically, classified and hush-hush to anyone who hasn't taken it. Which makes sense.

 

[locutus101]

The concept of a test that is the same every time is rather limiting...

If it really involves a Kobayashi Maru every time, we should see a look of recognition on Saavik's face (and hear the "...Damn." gasp) when the name gets mentioned the first time in the simulation. Saavik shouldn't be ignorant of the existence of the famed "Kobayashi Maru test". That is, if it existed: TWoK keeps it vague, only referring to the repeated use of a "no-win scenario", which involves "rescuing the ship", and allows for the scenario to be drastically different from cadet to cadet (or lieutenant to lieutenant for that matter). Although of course Kirk might have chosen to throw at Saavik the exact same scenario he himself once faced, just to celebrate the anniversary or whatnot.

McCoy in the 2009 movie in turn leaves nothing unclear about it always being about the Kobayashi Maru. Although of course it might be that there are multiple final exams to the command course, and the only one of interest is the one Kirk is planning on retaking - the one with the reputation of being unwinnable.

Spock in both universes might well be the guy who designed the especially sadistic Kobayashi Maru scenario, as opposed to all those other no-win scenarios that don't feature his trademark vessel-in-distress. For all we know, Spock in both universes did take such a test, only not the exact one he would later design that would be associated with the ship name.

Timo Saloniemi

I think the name "Kobayashi Maru" has become so famous among the fans that the writers had no choice but to use it, its appropriateness notwithstanding.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Spock in both universes might well be the guy who designed the especially sadistic Kobayashi Maru scenario, as opposed to all those other no-win scenarios that don't feature his trademark vessel-in-distress. For all we know, Spock in both universes did take such a test, only not the exact one he would later design that would be associated with the ship name.

Or maybe a younger Kelvin Timeline Spock had once encountered a similar disaster and had studied the actual Maru incident (which may be thus: (http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru_(novel))) just as Pike had studied the Kelvin's demise . That would explain why a) Spock chose this type of scenario for the simulation and b) he was so jarred when Kirk had beaten it though he could not.

 

[Timo]

...This would not prevent the prime Spock from having done the same: were he to devise a specific test, based on a historical scenario, he would not be among those taking it.

Noteworthy perhaps is that the two Kobayashi Maru incidents seen in the respective simulations appear dissimilar: TWoK describes a civilian vessel but never indicates it would actually have existed, while STXI explicitly shows what looks very much like a military transport (built of Starfleet components, even if based on a fan design that was intended to be civilian). Perhaps Nero's arrival affected the identity of the Kobayashi Maru? More probably, the simulation is a combination of features, getting the ship name from a famous (perhaps even fictional) incident, the nature of the ship from elsewhere, and the enemy of the week from a random generator.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[topcat]

the beating of it was that Kirk gave the creator of the video game the finger by blatantly defeating the program whithc itself is a blatant disregard for the surmation that ....

defeat is not always defeat, but simply a rating of what you have gained.

spock stated that George Kirk lost the fight, but the fact was George WON the battle, he set himself a goal of saving the shuttles. He may have gone down with the ship, but he still accomplished his set goal and actually won the battle.

What little Jimmy did was re write the simulator to INCLUDE the chance of winning. Before that there was no way to win the simulator... ie being told to rescue the survivors and get out with no casualties or damage to our own ship, after they made it impossible for you to avoid taking damage or being able to do damage to the enemies.