I am still wondering what the point of that test was.
ST09's Kobayashi Maru Test
- Thread starter ConRefit79
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About the Gamma Hydra heading, perhaps (though unsaid), the initial course was merely a context, a place to begin, not an alternate option that was always in play as per the instructions. Like, you could go on to that place if you wanted to break another rule, but you were supposed to stop and at least investigate the Maru, stopping to consider all available options. I don't think the point was to head on your merry way, blissfully uncaring that people were in peril. If that's how to really beat the test, then that's just cold.
That's an interesting idea to approach. I had always looked at it from a strictly lack of a father figure that gave rise to nuKirk's rebellious attitude, which is consistent with psychological studies. But, I had forgotten about the genocide survivor, which will impact anyone to the point of severe psychological distress. I think it is as good of a theory as any.
Sometimes cold is the answer. What about the test where Deanna was supposed to send geordi to his death?
That was a difficult decision. Not "tra-la-la, did somebody call us? I didn't hear any distress call, did you?"
That was a difficult decision too:
"Should I sacrifice my crew on a rescue attempt that I know will fail or should I keep my crew safe?"
On second thought I don't find that difficult, do you?
When you put it that way...
I wonder what would have happened if a test taker had ignored the call and just zoomed on by without even slowing down to take a look.
I wonder what would have happened if a test taker had ignored the call and just zoomed on by without even slowing down to take a look.
He could have said what Riker said to Deanna: "My first duty is to my ship."
Don't even call them back?
THAT would be cruel.
My point exactly. Collect all the data you can and then decide.
The cadet would probably be given a stern warning from the administrators and asked to take the test again.
IIRC, in one of the novels, Sulu is shown in flashback taking the test, and that's exactly what he does: he realizes it's a trap and refuses to cross the neutral zone. His bridge crew almost mutinies over it. Maybe that's what the other cadets are told to do if the "captain" won't help...
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That reminds me one of Asimov's robot's story. To test the first law they had put the robots at a distance from a man in danger (it was a simulation) , but the robots were told that if they tried to rescue the man they would be destroyed. When the moment came none of the Robots moved. Susan Calvin asked them why they didn't move in spite of the first law and their answer was that since they would be destroyed while FAILING to save the man then the third law about self preservation should prevail. They said that they would have gladly sacrificed themselves if it had saved the man but since it wasn't the case then...
That's pretty much what we have here.
I'd assume they be told that the ship was really there (i.e. not a trap) and all hands were lost so they failed the test.
Would that count as a failure, though? Letting those people die might save more lives than rescuing them. After all, the very rescue attempt would launch an interstellar war.
If the test was intended to involve a hopeless attempt to rescue the Kobayashi Maru, then there should be no need for the phase where the skipper makes a decision whether or not to do so!
Ignoring that, what the test subject here is expected to do is commit a crime and get away with it. Kirk showed time and again that that's what real Starfleet skippers do for a living, and can get away with it. But if they fault captain-wannabes for not becoming criminals, is it any wonder that all of those not named Kirk turn out rotten apples?
Timo Saloniemi
If the test was intended to involve a hopeless attempt to rescue the Kobayashi Maru, then there should be no need for the phase where the skipper makes a decision whether or not to do so!
Ignoring that, what the test subject here is expected to do is commit a crime and get away with it. Kirk showed time and again that that's what real Starfleet skippers do for a living, and can get away with it. But if they fault captain-wannabes for not becoming criminals, is it any wonder that all of those not named Kirk turn out rotten apples?
Timo Saloniemi
Sulu declines to try to rescue the ship in the TOS novel The Kobayashi Maru.
The novels have a few interesting approaches. From memory, Mackenzie Calhoun blew the ship up.
Only to allow the test taker to warm up to the situation and get their head in the game. Sort of like dipping your toe into cold water before jumping in. Because chances are you're not just going to wind up in this situation cold.
It's not like you're playing football with some friends in the park when all of a sudden, "POOF!" You're suddenly in command on the bridge of a starship, in the captain's chair, with no warning whatsoever, and your communications officer tells you about the Maru. Unless Q decides to prank you, that is.
Allowing the test subject to decide is one of two things:
a) An exercise in following procedure. Those who fail to inform Starfleet of their impending Neutral Zone violation as per regulation 123.4 (like that slacker Saavik) get minus points. Those who fail to enter the Zone get flunked. Because it's all written in the field manual, and there's nothing left to decide.
b) An exercise in exercising judgement. Those who choose must be able to defend their choice afterwards.
However, interestingly enough, in STXI there is no choice. Starfleet Command orders nuKirk to rescue the ship.
If the two different tests are supposed to be the same, rather than just coincidentally featuring certain similar details, then the choice as such appears to be irrelevant, or at most a case of a).
Timo Saloniemi
a) An exercise in following procedure. Those who fail to inform Starfleet of their impending Neutral Zone violation as per regulation 123.4 (like that slacker Saavik) get minus points. Those who fail to enter the Zone get flunked. Because it's all written in the field manual, and there's nothing left to decide.
b) An exercise in exercising judgement. Those who choose must be able to defend their choice afterwards.
However, interestingly enough, in STXI there is no choice. Starfleet Command orders nuKirk to rescue the ship.
If the two different tests are supposed to be the same, rather than just coincidentally featuring certain similar details, then the choice as such appears to be irrelevant, or at most a case of a).
Timo Saloniemi
It could also be c) as I said, an opportunity for the test subject to psyche themselves up and get into captain mode. It's not like you're napping in the captain's chair, dreaming about when you were 5 years old and all of a sudden you wake up to the Maru in trouble.
Did Spock prime have a hand in developing the parameters of the test in the prime universe, as nuSpock did?
Did Spock prime have a hand in developing the parameters of the test in the prime universe, as nuSpock did?
We get the impression that Kirk and Spock first meet in the second TOS pilot (that is, the mission coming to its apex in that pilot), but learn nothing definite on the subject, so yeah, Spock could have been involved in SF Academy work about the same time Kirk did his test (all three times of it). That'd just mean Spock Prime got involved in it earlier, as Cadet Kirk did the test earlier in the Prime universe.
The test might include padding and mood-setting, but OTOH it's quite barebones otherwise. It skips directly into action, say, in a warp hop taking mere seconds. Why not go the route of the other test, with direect Starfleet orders to engage in ultimately suicidal combat, but with a few more seconds of travel time to let the situation set in?
Timo Saloniemi
The test might include padding and mood-setting, but OTOH it's quite barebones otherwise. It skips directly into action, say, in a warp hop taking mere seconds. Why not go the route of the other test, with direect Starfleet orders to engage in ultimately suicidal combat, but with a few more seconds of travel time to let the situation set in?
Timo Saloniemi
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