ST:TNG Resistance (SPOILERS)

[Christopher]

od0_ital said:
Of course, another example would be your book, The Buried Age, which I chose not to buy, despite lookin' forward to the idea of a Picard story set between the loss of the Stargazer and takin' command of the Enterprise-D. I read the back cover copy, and the mention of Picard teamin' up with Guinan, Data & Deanna Troi turned me off from readin' it. Now, is that accurate for your novel, or was there another foul up somewhere between the printers and the local Books-a-Million?

First of all, why are you making such a federal case out of a slightly misleading comment in a cover blurb? I mean, more of your criticisms of the book are driven by its back cover than by its actual contents. How is that fair?

As for TBA, Picard does interact with those three people, but in separate instances occurring years apart rather than all at once. Whether the blurb was misleading depends on how you interpreted it, I guess.

Maybe I am a bit hung up on the "when" of the story, because I did want to read about the first mission of the Big E.

Uhh, the first mission of the E-E was about a decade before this. It's not a new ship post-NEM, it's just undergone some major repairs.

I like the Big E, I like most of the characters that are still on the Big E, and I'd like to read their stories while waitin' for the next installment of the DS9 Relaunch...

And you're getting three of their stories this fall and a fourth next summer. What does it matter if they take place right after the ship leaves drydock or not? It's not logical to assume you'd get more stories or have less waiting if the decision had been made to have them begin immediately out of spacedock instead of a few months later. I mean, it took two years to come out with Homecoming, a book that picked up immediately after the VGR season finale.

Nave (aka Mary Sue) transferred from security to conn. With the loss of the new security chief, Nave is the most experience to take his place. Just how did she get that experience? Just what the hell could have happened that made her so damn special?

Nothin'. The ship has been close to home, Earth, for awhile now.

You're still clinging to a false impression that has nothing to do with what's actually written inside the book. The ship has not been close to Earth for a while now. It's been on patrol for several months -- there is abundant evidence to that effect within the text. The only thing that says otherwise is the back cover blurb, which you really just need to forget now.

As for Nave, her backstory is given right there when she's introduced. It clearly states on p. 13-14 that she graduated at the top of her Academy class and has "seven years of outstanding service under her belt." Why are you assuming that the Enterprise is the only possible place she could've gained valuable experience? It's not like she materalized out of nothingness the day she boarded the ship.

And even though Picard wants Worf to be his first officer, and even has Worf servin' in that position aboard his ship, it takes months & months for Starfleet to approve?

You think it's strange that a bureaucracy would be slow at making decisions?? Try waiting for a publisher to approve a check request sometime.

Besides, the Worf storyline in this book revolves around the consequences of his decision in "Change of Heart" -- a decision that, according to Sisko, seriously hurt his chances for a command post. Maybe some in Starfleet were resistant to giving him a permanent first-officer post for that reason, and Picard had to convince them to change their minds.

Fine...but how is it that Worf didn't ever have to step up to act like a first officer durin' those months & months?

Where in the world did you get that impression? "Temporary first officer" doesn't mean he didn't function as a first officer, just that he was assumed to be filling in until someone else took over. And Picard says quite plainly on pp. 15-16 that "for the past few months," Worf has "fulfilled [his] role as temporary second-in-command most admirably." Honestly, you seem to have read the back cover more closely than you read the actual book.

What the hell has Geordi been doin' with B-4 for months and months? Why are they only now gettin' to the point of boxin' him up & shippin' him out to the Daystrom Institute?

Articles of the Federation indicated that the question of B-4's status was quite a contentious one. It may have taken months for the decision to ship him to the DI to be arrived at. My guess would be that the E-E crew spent the intervening time trying to help him grow or develop or maybe manifest some Data memories, but failed to do so. Okay, I bet you're going to ask why that wasn't explored, but this book wasn't about that. Maybe that story will be told some other time.

One can only assume that Picard was too busy makin' up for lost horizontal mambo time with Beverly...

Can you blame him? He's got a lot of lost time to make up for...

And while thinkin' of that, how 'bout this? Why is Beverly still havin' a hard time thinkin' of the quarters she shares with Picard as "their" quarters?

You were the one who just brought up how long it took them to get around to this. It seems consistent that Beverly would need a while to get used to the new state of affairs. And when I lived in the same house for about 15 years growing up and then moved to another, it was years before I stopped expecting to be in my old bedroom when I opened my eyes in the morning.

And maybe I am blowin' it all out of proportion. Y'all have my money, whether I liked the book or not, right?

I don't have your money. You didn't buy The Buried Age, remember? We writers don't get a cut of the sales for each other's books, just our own.

 

[Corran Horn]

It was ok. I liked Worf in this book, a lot. A more thoughtful Worf, I guess.

Maybe it's just how much I dislike Janeway, but I absolutely detested her at the end of this book. Being furious with Picard...please. What a hypocrite.

 

[JD]

Yeah, I gotta agree with Trent here too. I've been hanging out on the Star Wars official site's message boards, and it has some of the aboslute worst writing I have ever seen on a website anywhere. I don't know if there are just a ton of people who don't speak english as a first language, but sometimes I have to read a post 2 or 3 times before I can even begin to figure out what they are trying to say. So IMO someone chooseing to write more or less correctly in his own dialect really that big of a deal.

 

[od0_ital]

Christopher said:

od0_ital said:
Of course, another example would be your book, The Buried Age, which I chose not to buy, despite lookin' forward to the idea of a Picard story set between the loss of the Stargazer and takin' command of the Enterprise-D. I read the back cover copy, and the mention of Picard teamin' up with Guinan, Data & Deanna Troi turned me off from readin' it. Now, is that accurate for your novel, or was there another foul up somewhere between the printers and the local Books-a-Million?

First of all, why are you making such a federal case out of a slightly misleading comment in a cover blurb? I mean, more of your criticisms of the book are driven by its back cover than by its actual contents. How is that fair?

Well, think of it this way...ya go to a restaurant, nothin' too fancy, and the menu has the description of the dishes ya have to choose from. The selection is made based on the menu, and your own tastes. The meal is delivered, and it ain't nearly as good as ya thought it was goin' to be.

The back cover of the books (or the inside flap of a hardcover) is one of the determinin' factors in what books I buy, and it sets the tone for what I expect when I'm readin' 'em.

And just about any random consumer complaint can start with, "I was expectin' this, but instead, wound up with that!"

Maybe I am a bit hung up on the "when" of the story, because I did want to read about the first mission of the Big E.

Uhh, the first mission of the E-E was about a decade before this. It's not a new ship post-NEM, it's just undergone some major repairs.

"Wait a minute..."

*pause*

"...right, yeah, I meant the first post-NEM mission, as I've been sayin' all along, just didn't think to put it there while I was typin'."

I like the Big E, I like most of the characters that are still on the Big E, and I'd like to read their stories while waitin' for the next installment of the DS9 Relaunch...

... I mean, it took two years to come out with Homecoming, a book that picked up immediately after the VGR season finale.

Yeah, and that book sucked out loud, as did its follow-up, and while the Spirit Walk duology wasn't as bad, it still wasn't good enough to give the VOY Relaunch any more space on my shelves.

I'm not arguin' "real time" versus "book time" here - I read TNG: Death in Winter & TNG: Resistance one right after the other, bought 'em at the same time, at the same store, on the same receipt as CoE: Grand Designs. While I expect there to be a flow between the two TNG stories, I'm not expectin' the CoE story to mix well with the two TNG books, just 'cause of when I bought 'em or when they became available at Borders.

Nave (aka Mary Sue) transferred from security to conn. With the loss of the new security chief, Nave is the most experience to take his place. Just how did she get that experience? Just what the hell could have happened that made her so damn special?
Nothin'. The ship has been close to home, Earth, for awhile now.

You're still clinging to a false impression that has nothing to do with what's actually written inside the book. The ship has not been close to Earth for a while now. It's been on patrol for several months -- there is abundant evidence to that effect within the text. The only thing that says otherwise is the back cover blurb, which you really just need to forget now.

Tell me which pages say the ship has been out on patrol, I've got the thing right here on my desk, I'll find where the proof is, and ya & I may just wind up agreein'.

[qutoe]As for Nave, her backstory is given right there when she's introduced. It clearly states on p. 13-14 that she graduated at the top of her Academy class and has "seven years of outstanding service under her belt." Why are you assuming that the Enterprise is the only possible place she could've gained valuable experience? It's not like she materalized out of nothingness the day she boarded the ship.

[/QUOTE]

From the way she is regarded by the rest of the crew, I don't think she materalized from nothin', I'm sure the heavens opened up and the angels sang when she stepped out from the turbolift for the first time.

And what was she doin' durin' those seven years? She take on the Borg at the Federation's first encounter with 'em? Fight in a Klingon civil war to maintain the balance of the Alpha Quadrant? Maybe fight a squadran of Jem'Hadar in hand to hand combat?

What could she have possibly done that makes it possible for her to command security from the conn? At least when Worf had to step up for Yar's loss, he maintained the right post.

And even though Picard wants Worf to be his first officer, and even has Worf servin' in that position aboard his ship, it takes months & months for Starfleet to approve?

You think it's strange that a bureaucracy would be slow at making decisions?? Try waiting for a publisher to approve a check request sometime.

Well, I wouldn't know about that one.

Besides, the Worf storyline in this book revolves around the consequences of his decision in "Change of Heart" -- a decision that, according to Sisko, seriously hurt his chances for a command post. Maybe some in Starfleet were resistant to giving him a permanent first-officer post for that reason, and Picard had to convince them to change their minds.

Yeah, about that...shouldn't Worf be over that by now? He didn't pine that much for K'Ehlayr, and they had a kid together, for cryin' out loud!

He got Jadzia into Klingon heaven, boffed Ezri, and probably got all kinds of Klingon action while an ambassador.

Fine...but how is it that Worf didn't ever have to step up to act like a first officer durin' those months & months?

Where in the world did you get that impression? "Temporary first officer" doesn't mean he didn't function as a first officer, just that he was assumed to be filling in until someone else took over. And Picard says quite plainly on pp. 15-16 that "for the past few months," Worf has "fulfilled [his] role as temporary second-in-command most admirably." Honestly, you seem to have read the back cover more closely than you read the actual book.

Worf didn't think he was fit for the position, and was stayin' out of loyalty to Picard. Fine. But if they were out on patrols and doin' whatever the hell, how is it he never had to step up & act like a first officer?

Which brings up another inconsistency - in TNG 'Disaster', Picard called that girl "Number One" so damn much, she answered to it on the bridge in front of Riker. But at the end of the book, Worf flinches when its used on him as if its the first time he's heard it.

So, months & months, and Picard didn't call him that? Ever? Really?

What the hell has Geordi been doin' with B-4 for months and months? Why are they only now gettin' to the point of boxin' him up & shippin' him out to the Daystrom Institute?

Articles of the Federation indicated that the question of B-4's status was quite a contentious one.

Damn! I knew I should have read Articles of the Federation first!

It may have taken months for the decision to ship him to the DI to be arrived at. My guess would be that the E-E crew spent the intervening time trying to help him grow or develop or maybe manifest some Data memories, but failed to do so. Okay, I bet you're going to ask why that wasn't explored, but this book wasn't about that. Maybe that story will be told some other time.

No, actually, I'm not goin' to ask that. Instead, I'm goin' to ask why B-4 sayin' he didn't want to be boxed up & shipped out didn't stop him from bein' boxed up & shipped out?

One can only assume that Picard was too busy makin' up for lost horizontal mambo time with Beverly...

Can you blame him? He's got a lot of lost time to make up for...

Bet he took a little blue hypo first, too.

And while thinkin' of that, how 'bout this? Why is Beverly still havin' a hard time thinkin' of the quarters she shares with Picard as "their" quarters?

You were the one who just brought up how long it took them to get around to this. It seems consistent that Beverly would need a while to get used to the new state of affairs. And when I lived in the same house for about 15 years growing up and then moved to another, it was years before I stopped expecting to be in my old bedroom when I opened my eyes in the morning.

Wouldn't really know anything about that one, either. Never have lived in the same place for longer than nine.

And maybe I am blowin' it all out of proportion. Y'all have my money, whether I liked the book or not, right?

I don't have your money. You didn't buy The Buried Age, remember?

No, but I did buy Ex Machina.

We writers don't get a cut of the sales for each other's books, just our own.

I meant "y'all" as in Pocket Books - if I had said "all y'all", ya would have been included.

That's just another way speakin' Texan doesn't translate on the internet.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I was looking forward to getting this but after reading some of the negative reviews I might demote Resistance to library waiting status. Not sure how i feel about some of the plot and character developments I've read about here. That being said I am also looking forward to Q&A and Before Dishonour!

Regarding why the authors have chosen not to use Commander Martin Madden is because he was shown in a deleted scene and therefor not considered canon which is interesting dismissal of character since the novels aren't suppossed to be canon.

Admiral Young

 

[KRAD]

Regarding why the authors have chosen not to use Commander Martin Madden is because he was shown in a deleted scene and therefor not considered canon which is interesting dismissal of character since the novels aren't suppossed to be canon.

No, we chose not to use Madden because that idiotic scene was deleted for very good reason. It also made zero sense for Picard to bring in a first officer from outside when he had a lieutenant commander on the command track right there on the ship already. Also it required Riker to act absurdly out of character.

First officer of the Enterprise is a lateral move from Worf's responsibilities on Deep Space 9. For him to have a position lesser than that on the Enterprise now, after four years and distinguished diplomatic service, would be a demotion, which the character has done nothing to earn.

 

[JAG]

I enjoyed the book, even if it was a bit of a quick read. I like T'Lana and look forward to seeing her developed a bit more.

 

[Christopher]

od0_ital said:
Tell me which pages say the ship has been out on patrol, I've got the thing right here on my desk, I'll find where the proof is, and ya & I may just wind up agreein'.

It doesn't literally say "The ship had been on patrol," but it makes multiple references that make that clear -- like Worf having served admirably as XO for months, Nave having caught an illness when returning from a mission a couple of months before, etc. It's just implicit throughout. There are multiple references to "months" having passed since the end of NEM, and the ship was already nearly ready for relaunch at the end of NEM. Honestly, it's not that hard to figure out. The one and only data point that even suggests otherwise is the back-cover blurb. Your problem is that you're fixating on that single, isolated datum and giving it more weight than all the other evidence put together, evidence that comes from the actual texts (including the "text" of the film NEM) and thus should logically be given more weight than promotional copy.

From the way she is regarded by the rest of the crew, I don't think she materalized from nothin', I'm sure the heavens opened up and the angels sang when she stepped out from the turbolift for the first time.

And what was she doin' durin' those seven years? She take on the Borg at the Federation's first encounter with 'em? Fight in a Klingon civil war to maintain the balance of the Alpha Quadrant? Maybe fight a squadran of Jem'Hadar in hand to hand combat?

What the hell are you talking about? Why does someone have to save the galaxy to have a respectable career record in Starfleet? She's a capable officer with seven years of experience under her belt, no doubt accrued on dozens of missions on various ships. What's the problem with that? I mean, Riker had only had been out of the Academy seven years when he became first officer of the E-D. So why is it so incredible that someone with seven years of Starfleet experience is qualified to be a security chief?

What could she have possibly done that makes it possible for her to command security from the conn? At least when Worf had to step up for Yar's loss, he maintained the right post.

Uhh, just two days ago, you yourself described Nave as "the former chief of security for the Big E before transferrin' to the conn." So it's disingenuous for you to pretend you're unaware of her prior qualifications for security.

And you're wrong about Worf. He didn't "maintain" his post, because he wasn't in security before Tasha died. Throughout the first season, he was the bridge watch officer -- he monitored the consoles in the back, served as a relief at conn and ops, and stood watch when senior officers were away.

Worf didn't think he was fit for the position, and was stayin' out of loyalty to Picard. Fine. But if they were out on patrols and doin' whatever the hell, how is it he never had to step up & act like a first officer?

Again, you're jumping to a totally unsupported conclusion. Just because he doubts his fitness for the post doesn't mean he's never done the job. A person can do well in a job for months, but if he has some serious hangup making him doubt himself, he can fail to recognize he's suited for it. Especially if he's been assuming it's only a temporary posting.

Which brings up another inconsistency - in TNG 'Disaster', Picard called that girl "Number One" so damn much, she answered to it on the bridge in front of Riker. But at the end of the book, Worf flinches when its used on him as if its the first time he's heard it.

So, months & months, and Picard didn't call him that? Ever? Really?

Your interpretations continue to be totally bizarre. It's not that he'd never heard it before, just that -- as you yourself acknowledged -- he's uncomfortable in the post, so it doesn't feel right to him to hear the term "Number One" applied to himself.

We writers don't get a cut of the sales for each other's books, just our own.

I meant "y'all" as in Pocket Books - if I had said "all y'all", ya would have been included.

Uhh, that doesn't make sense. "Y'all" means "you all," and you were speaking to me, so implicitly you meant me and others. I'm a freelancer, not a salaried employee of Pocket Books, so it doesn't make sense to use "y'all" = "Pocket Books" when speaking to me rather than to, say, one of the editors.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

This is my review of Resistance. It contains spoilers.



S P O I L E R

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I have been looking forward to this book and also the books that will follow for a very long time. The main reason is, I liked the announcement very much that these Star Trek books will bring the Borg back we knew in early TNG. I remember that “Vendetta” by Peter David left a very strong impression on me (One day I really have to read that book again!) and I was hoping for books that leave a similar impact on me. I was also curious. I know that the Star Trek authors and editors don`t have the luxury to just forget some of the Borg aspects I wish never happened. On the other hand, there are a few ideas in Voyager also about the Borg that make them more chilling, more menacing, more dangerous.

I have just finished “Resistance” and must say I am impressed. This book makes very good use of the fact established in Voyager that every Borg is not just a robot you can trash without a second thought. These are people who are trapped and being forced to be killer machines, people who can potentially be freed and rehabilitated if they haven`t been turned into Borg at a very young age. I also found these much more unpredictable and vicious Borg more menacing but also more interesting than the Borg from early TNG who followed a pattern that was often too programmed in order to be interesting in the long run. I don`t think I would have enjoyed reading the book as much without these changes. They certainly make them more complex and offer more room for surprises.

It was interesting to read how the book addressed some of what we know about the Borg but we wondered about. The explanation about the nature of the Borg Queen made a lot of sense to me. I also liked the way the IMO daft idea introduced in Voyager that people willingly become Borg by infecting themselves with nanoprobes (if I remember that correctly) has been dropped. Voyager treated this as nothing else but an ordinary disease like it doesn`t really matter to become a Borg. I am glad that the author of this book didn`t decide to just follow the Voyager path and inject all members of the team with these nanoprobes. The horror of being turned into a Borg was left intact as it should be.

I read quite a few comments and when I read the book I wondered if I would feel the same that Picard decided too quickly to become Locutus again. I don`t think so. He had to act quickly because there was not much time but I wasn`t left with the impression that this was an easy decision. Especially because of Picard`s history, because of his mistakes in the past concerning the Borg and his personal experiences with the Borg Queen, I even think this was a natural decision for him. It was natural but nevertheless, the author made it very clear that it was one of the most difficult sacrifices he ever had to make in order to save humanity. I found it very moving to read about his personal battle and could see again why I like this character so much and why he is such a good captain and leader.

This brings me to another strength of this book. The author does an impressive job at combining character development with action. Some people might think when reading the back page description that this book is an action story and little else. I think it is the character development that carries the story and the action is much less important. I think this is a strength of the book, certainly not a weakness. I don`t think people who say that not much happens in this book are doing it justice.

I like it very much how the TNG Relaunch books have started. I think it was right to focus on the Picard/Crusher relationship in “Death in Winter”. “Resistance” is broadening the base by building on what was established in “Death in Winter concerning this relationship and I must say, I loved the way the author handled this couple. I am glad that Picard seemed to have overcome his past objections towards having a relationship with a fellow officer on the same ship and having to send the woman he loves into dangerous situations. Not only Picard showed a lot of courage but Beverly too. As I keep saying, I love stories featuring a strong male and female character working together and if they are also romantically involved, that is even better.

I like it that this book is exploring Worf as well and the introduction of the Vulcan counsellor T`Lana was very interesting to read. I think people who in general don`t like Klingons and who associate Worf with how he was written in the late DS9 seasons might be as pleasantly surprised as T`Lana was. I would like to recommend fans who hesitate buying TNG Relaunch because Worf is the first officer in these books that these books and Worf deserve a chance. The author was very good at exploring the many different layers Worf has and the contradictions inside him. Worf is a Klingon warrior but so much more than that. This book shows very well how much Worf matured. It shows his strengths but also his weaknesses.

That Worf`s decision in “Change of Heart” is still haunting him is very understandable and I think it was time to address this once and for all. I am glad that the author didn`t try to find a definitive answer if Worf made the wrong decision. The author brought the book to a nice conclusion with the last part in the last chapter. I couldn`t have agreed more: Important is to try to do what is right at the time. I am glad that Worf decided to become the first officer on the Enterprise for good now. I am confident that he will be an excellent first officer who will work well with Picard. I didn`t like the Worf in late DS9 at all. “Change of Heart” was one of the few exceptions. But I like the Worf in “Gorkon” and I like this Worf. The way TNG Relaunch is developing so far, it could very well become one of my favourite Star Trek book series.

When T`Lana was hurt I immediately looked at the end of the book in order to find out if she will also be around in future. I like her and I agree with what the author explored in this book, that she is providing a balance this crew and also Picard needs. T`Lana is a highly skilled professional but she is definitely not perfect. I think T`Lana has the right balance. I like that. Her problems with Worf were understandable but it is also good to see that she is able to learn and grow. T`Lana will never be a counsellor like Deanna Troi was but for the more emotional side Picard has Beverly now more than in the past. I am looking forward to meet her again in the coming books and get to know her better.

I think it was the right decision not to focus on Geordi in this book as well. Hopefully he will get a bigger part in another book in this storyline. I must admit that I have problems with the idea to dismantle B-4. He was far away from Data`s level but nevertheless he is classified as a sentient AI. I don`t think that makes it right to take sentience away from him and pack him away like a robot you don`t want to use any more. B-4 wasn`t a threat as Lore was. He was in many ways like a child with, to use the PC phrase, “learning difficulties” and it felt wrong to me to treat him like somebody inferior.

With a story featuring the Borg I expected to encounter red shirts, people we never met before and never will again after this book. Nevertheless, I think it is important to also offer good backgrounds to people who won`t survive the book. Their contribution to the story was important and it mattered to me what happened to them. Also in this case, the author did a good job.

I am very much looking forward to meet Seven of Nine in the coming books but Janeway is a very different matter. This woman has been very much in character so far in book form: There are times when I actually like and respect her but there are other times when she reminds me of Jellico at his worst. She is unpredictable and inconsistent, as she was on TV. In “Resistance”, I am leaning more towards her being like Jellico but although she was bad enough and annoying, she wasn`t as bad as Jellico was sometimes in NF.

After Janeway`s experiences with the Borg her attitude absolutely amazed me. She should know better than anybody else (except maybe Picard and Seven) that this was a situation in which there was no time to waste. Picard had to act now and it is him who is immediately confronted with what is going on. Together with his unique background he is the best qualified person to decide what to do, not somebody light years away. If Picard would have waited, there would be a Borg Queen. This worst case scenario would not have changed if Picard had failed. On top of this Janeway threatened Picard with a court martial! No, I can`t say I am looking forward to see her again within this storyline but I am afraid that this will happen.

Now I am very much looking forward to the next book that will build on “Resistance” which is “Q & A” by Keith R.A. DeCandido.

 

[od0_ital]

Christopher said:

od0_ital said:
Tell me which pages say the ship has been out on patrol, I've got the thing right here on my desk, I'll find where the proof is, and ya & I may just wind up agreein'.

It doesn't literally say "The ship had been on patrol," but it makes multiple references that make that clear -- like Worf having served admirably as XO for months,

Temporary XO, when havin' a real XO wouldn't necessarily be needed if the ship was parked in Earth orbit for months.

Nave having caught an illness when returning from a mission a couple of months before, etc.

I say this is just an error in continuity, if the Big E is just bein' sent on their first mission since repairs were complete.

It's just implicit throughout. There are multiple references to "months" having passed since the end of NEM, and the ship was already nearly ready for relaunch at the end of NEM.

And yet, all through TNG: Death in Winter, the Big E is still bein' repaired. And at the end of that story, when Picard got back, Geordi says they are still workin' on repairs.

Honestly, it's not that hard to figure out. The one and only data point that even suggests otherwise is the back-cover blurb. Your problem is that you're fixating on that single, isolated datum and giving it more weight than all the other evidence put together, evidence that comes from the actual texts (including the "text" of the film NEM) and thus should logically be given more weight than promotional copy.

Maybe Pocket (notice I won't say "y'all" to avoid confusion) should keep a closer eye on how they promote their novels in the future.

From the way she is regarded by the rest of the crew, I don't think she materalized from nothin', I'm sure the heavens opened up and the angels sang when she stepped out from the turbolift for the first time.

And what was she doin' durin' those seven years? She take on the Borg at the Federation's first encounter with 'em? Fight in a Klingon civil war to maintain the balance of the Alpha Quadrant? Maybe fight a squadran of Jem'Hadar in hand to hand combat?

What the hell are you talking about? Why does someone have to save the galaxy to have a respectable career record in Starfleet? She's a capable officer with seven years of experience under her belt, no doubt accrued on dozens of missions on various ships. What's the problem with that?

Just tryin' to point out there was at least one other person on the bridge with a lot more experience with handlin' security and dealin' with the Borg and combat situations than Dillard's Mary Sue.

I mean, Riker had only had been out of the Academy seven years when he became first officer of the E-D. So why is it so incredible that someone with seven years of Starfleet experience is qualified to be a security chief?

To be fair, there was only the one thing that caught Picard's eye that got Riker the position as first officer.

What could she have possibly done that makes it possible for her to command security from the conn? At least when Worf had to step up for Yar's loss, he maintained the right post.

Uhh, just two days ago, you yourself described Nave as "the former chief of security for the Big E before transferrin' to the conn." So it's disingenuous for you to pretend you're unaware of her prior qualifications for security.

I'm sayin' that even though Worf had told her "you'll be doin' this" she still sat there at the conn.

And I still don't agree that bein' security chief of a ship bein' repaired in spacedock makes her qualified to lead anybody into combat against the Borg.

And you're wrong about Worf. He didn't "maintain" his post, because he wasn't in security before Tasha died. Throughout the first season, he was the bridge watch officer -- he monitored the consoles in the back, served as a relief at conn and ops, and stood watch when senior officers were away.

After Yar was killed off in 'Skin of Evil', Worf remained on the bridge, and after Tasha was gone in the episodes that followed, there he was, at the arch behind the command center.

Prior to that, yeah, Worf was all over the damn place, but that's because 1) Michael Dorn was a last minute addition to 'Encounter at Farpoint' and they had nowhere to put him and 2) it makes sense to have a relief officer who can take over a post while more senior folks are beamin' down to the planet.

Which brings up another inconsistency - in TNG 'Disaster', Picard called that girl "Number One" so damn much, she answered to it on the bridge in front of Riker. But at the end of the book, Worf flinches when its used on him as if its the first time he's heard it.

So, months & months, and Picard didn't call him that? Ever? Really?

Your interpretations continue to be totally bizarre. It's not that he'd never heard it before, just that -- as you yourself acknowledged -- he's uncomfortable in the post, so it doesn't feel right to him to hear the term "Number One" applied to himself.

And again, I'm not sayin' he never heard it - he had to hear it for seven years while servin' on the E-D. But the first time Picard uses that phrase on Worf is at the end of TNG: Resistance. I'm sayin' if the ship has been out & about for so much time between the end of TNG: Death in Winter & the beginnin' of TNG: Resistance, why would Worf still be flinchin'? Was Picard holdin' back, or is it just another glarin' error on the part of the writer?

We writers don't get a cut of the sales for each other's books, just our own.

I meant "y'all" as in Pocket Books - if I had said "all y'all", ya would have been included.

Uhh, that doesn't make sense...

Yeah, it does. It just doesn't make sense to ya, most likely 'cause ya didn't grow up in Middle of Nowhere, Texas. Just trust me when I tell ya that there is a difference between "y'all" and "all y'all", and sometimes, there are wavin' hands involved, too, to punctuate the difference in groups, dependin' on who's talkin'.

And some times, ya can even be part of a group just by standin' 'round if someone says "all y'all over there".

Anyway, I don't agree that the Big E has been out for months since the end of TNG: Death in Winter - there's only one mention of an away mission, and that reads more like a continuity error to me when put against the rest of the book. And maybe I am givin' the back cover copy too much credit, but it is what I read before buyin' the book. If the back cover copy of a book isn't goin' to be accurate, maybe that's something Pocket should correct.

 

[Christopher]

od0_ital said:

Christopher said:
It doesn't literally say "The ship had been on patrol," but it makes multiple references that make that clear -- like Worf having served admirably as XO for months,

Temporary XO, when havin' a real XO wouldn't necessarily be needed if the ship was parked in Earth orbit for months.

It. Wasn't. Parked. In. Orbit. That's been explained to you.

Here, let me explain it this way. Look at A Time for War, A Time for Peace. Min Zife resigned as president, and R'ach B'ullhy served as temporary president until the election was held. That doesn't mean B'ullhy didn't do anything. It meant she did the job just as a permanent president would, but with the understanding that the appointment wouldn't last long. That's what doing a temporary job always means. So where you get this bizarre notion that Worf did nothing while serving as interim XO -- especially when the text explicitly has Picard say he's served admirably in the role -- is beyond me.

Nave having caught an illness when returning from a mission a couple of months before, etc.

I say this is just an error in continuity, if the Big E is just bein' sent on their first mission since repairs were complete.

And as I've been trying to get through to you for two days now, that was a false assumption based on your own inability to let go of this notion you got from the back cover blurb. It was not an error in continuity. You made the error by fixating on the blurb instead of paying attention to what's in the actual text.

It's just implicit throughout. There are multiple references to "months" having passed since the end of NEM, and the ship was already nearly ready for relaunch at the end of NEM.

And yet, all through TNG: Death in Winter, the Big E is still bein' repaired. And at the end of that story, when Picard got back, Geordi says they are still workin' on repairs.

*sigh* Because Death in Winter takes place before the final scenes of NEM. There is a gap of six weeks between the final battle with Shinzon and the closing scenes in spacedock. In the books, that gap is occupied by the epilogue of ATFW,ATFP, the entirety of Death in Winter, and chapters 2-5 of Taking Wing.

Just tryin' to point out there was at least one other person on the bridge with a lot more experience with handlin' security and dealin' with the Borg and combat situations than Dillard's Mary Sue.

Are you talking about Worf?? Come on! He's first officer -- he has too many other responsibilities to take on the security chief posting as well. And as KRAD said, that'd be a huge step backward for him in responsibility and seniority. Security chief is a job for a lieutenant, not a full commander.

And heck, weren't you the one complaining that the book didn't show us enough of the bridge crew? Now you're arguing that there should've been one less member of the bridge crew and that Worf should've doubled up on jobs even though there are a thousand other qualified people on the ship. You keep contradicting your own arguments.

And you're wrong about Worf. He didn't "maintain" his post, because he wasn't in security before Tasha died. Throughout the first season, he was the bridge watch officer -- he monitored the consoles in the back, served as a relief at conn and ops, and stood watch when senior officers were away.

After Yar was killed off in 'Skin of Evil', Worf remained on the bridge, and after Tasha was gone in the episodes that followed, there he was, at the arch behind the command center.

Yes, after she was killed. At that point, he was appointed as interim security chief and eventually permanent security chief, after having previously held a different post. So he didn't "maintain" the same post.

But the first time Picard uses that phrase on Worf is at the end of TNG: Resistance. I'm sayin' if the ship has been out & about for so much time between the end of TNG: Death in Winter & the beginnin' of TNG: Resistance, why would Worf still be flinchin'? Was Picard holdin' back, or is it just another glarin' error on the part of the writer?

It wasn't the novelty of it, it was his discomfort with it due to not being convinced he deserved to follow in Riker's shoes.

Anyway, I don't agree that the Big E has been out for months since the end of TNG: Death in Winter - there's only one mention of an away mission, and that reads more like a continuity error to me when put against the rest of the book. And maybe I am givin' the back cover copy too much credit, but it is what I read before buyin' the book. If the back cover copy of a book isn't goin' to be accurate, maybe that's something Pocket should correct.

Okay, okay, nobody's denying that, but the problem is you're obsessing on this one little thing and it's blinding you to what's actually written in the book. Just forget the blurb. It's unfair to attack what J. M. Dillard wrote on the basis of what someone else wrote to promote her book.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I'm going to chime in here on Christopher's side.

I don't think I've read the back cover blurb for Resistance. I have, however, read the book.

My feeling, from the text, was that Resistance is about six months after Nemesis. The time references are vague, but we're certainly no closer than three months since Nemesis.

And the Enterprise has been out in space in that time. Nave led a mission as security chief. Obviously, that can't be prior to Nemesis -- we'd have had Christine Vale doing that. And now she's been at the conn for a while, at least a few weeks as it's not a new transfer.

So there's simply no way that this is the Enterprise's first mission back out into space after the film.

Time has passed. The text is absolutely clear that time has passed.

I don't understand, Tom, what's so difficult about understanding that.

 

[Yassim]

Christopher said:
It's unfair to attack what J. M. Dillard wrote on the basis of what someone else wrote to promote her book.

Is it an attack, just sayin' he didn't enjoy it because it didn't meet his expectations?

 

[FordSVT]

JD said:
Are the Galaxy and (apparently) Sovereign-class, the only ones that can seperate?

No, but yu might want to take this up in Trek Tech.

 

[od0_ital]

Christopher said:

od0_ital said:
Just tryin' to point out there was at least one other person on the bridge with a lot more experience with handlin' security and dealin' with the Borg and combat situations than Dillard's Mary Sue.

Are you talking about Worf??

Ya caught me. I thought for a second or two that I was bein' too obscure.

And heck, weren't you the one complaining that the book didn't show us enough of the bridge crew? Now you're arguing that there should've been one less member of the bridge crew and that Worf should've doubled up on jobs even though there are a thousand other qualified people on the ship. You keep contradicting your own arguments.

I'm just goin' with what was available in the story. As far as I could tell, from the book, there were only three folks on the bridge at any given moment after Picard was turned into Locutus - Worf, T'Lana & Nave. And Worf was just kinda sittin' there, makin' sideways glances at the counselor, why make Nave do all the work?

In TNG '11001001', Picard, though in command over Riker, took the helm rather than issue orders.

In TNG 'Yesterday's Enterprise', Picard, in command durin' a combat situation, vaulted from his chair to the tactical station after Riker was killed, and still managed to issue orders while pushin' buttons. Though, that might be a bad example, considerin' the ship was on its way to bein' destroyed before the E-C crossed the rift and fixed the timeline.

But, it is possible to push buttons and issue commands, and I think Worf's voice would have carried through the whole bridge, what with it bein' so empty.

And you're wrong about Worf. He didn't "maintain" his post, because he wasn't in security before Tasha died. Throughout the first season, he was the bridge watch officer -- he monitored the consoles in the back, served as a relief at conn and ops, and stood watch when senior officers were away.

After Yar was killed off in 'Skin of Evil', Worf remained on the bridge, and after Tasha was gone in the episodes that followed, there he was, at the arch behind the command center.

Yes, after she was killed. At that point, he was appointed as interim security chief and eventually permanent security chief, after having previously held a different post. So he didn't "maintain" the same post.

Ya missed my point. After Worf was told "You're in charge of security," he stayed at security.

After Nave was told "You're in charge of security," she stayed at the conn.

But the first time Picard uses that phrase on Worf is at the end of TNG: Resistance. I'm sayin' if the ship has been out & about for so much time between the end of TNG: Death in Winter & the beginnin' of TNG: Resistance, why would Worf still be flinchin'? Was Picard holdin' back, or is it just another glarin' error on the part of the writer?

It wasn't the novelty of it, it was his discomfort with it due to not being convinced he deserved to follow in Riker's shoes.

So, Worf is okay with takin' Riker's girl, but not his chair?

Anyway, I don't agree that the Big E has been out for months since the end of TNG: Death in Winter - there's only one mention of an away mission, and that reads more like a continuity error to me when put against the rest of the book. And maybe I am givin' the back cover copy too much credit, but it is what I read before buyin' the book. If the back cover copy of a book isn't goin' to be accurate, maybe that's something Pocket should correct.

Okay, okay, nobody's denying that, but the problem is you're obsessing on this one little thing and it's blinding you to what's actually written in the book. Just forget the blurb. It's unfair to attack what J. M. Dillard wrote on the basis of what someone else wrote to promote her book.

I don't think of any of this as an attack - I'm sayin' why I bought the book, read the book, and why I didn't like the book. I'm not sayin' anyone has to agree or disagree with me about that, just puttin' my opinion of it out there.

It wasn't a good book, based on what my expectations of it were upon purchase, as well as how it was written.

If anything, you're the one who has been attackin' me for statin' that opinion, though I don't take it as an attack, since I'm used to folks askin' why I drop the "g" and explainin' "y'all" (ya aren't even the first Trek writer to bring that one up).

As I've said, I didn't care much for either TNG: Death in Winter or TNG: Resistance, and I certainly hope the next two post-NEM stories are better. Based on their authors, I'm guessin' they will be, since both KRAD and Peter David have written some of the best Trek fiction available. If those stories turn out to be as big a disappointment as the these have been, it'll be just one more series I'm not goin' to buy anymore of, that simple.

 

[Christopher]

od0_ital said:
I'm just goin' with what was available in the story. As far as I could tell, from the book, there were only three folks on the bridge at any given moment after Picard was turned into Locutus - Worf, T'Lana & Nave. And Worf was just kinda sittin' there, makin' sideways glances at the counselor, why make Nave do all the work?

Because that's what she and the other thousand people on the ship are there for. There's a whole crew on board, qualified and trained to do these jobs -- why in hell would you expect them to sit around doing nothing while the first officer does their jobs for them? The first officer's job is to tell the rest of the crew what to do in order to carry out the captain's orders.

For that matter, why aren't you complaining just as loudly about T'Lana? I mean, how dare they bring in a new counselor rather than having Crusher double up that job?

I don't understand your attitude toward this at all. This is the TNG Relaunch. Nearly half the regular cast has moved on. It's necessary to introduce new characters to the ensemble, just as every other relaunch series has done. Nave isn't a Mary Sue any more than Vaughn or Shar or Jast in the DS9 Relaunch.

As I've said, I didn't care much for either TNG: Death in Winter or TNG: Resistance, and I certainly hope the next two post-NEM stories are better. Based on their authors, I'm guessin' they will be, since both KRAD and Peter David have written some of the best Trek fiction available. If those stories turn out to be as big a disappointment as the these have been, it'll be just one more series I'm not goin' to buy anymore of, that simple.

Well, if you're so morally opposed to the idea of introducing new central characters rather than having Picard, Worf, Bevery and Geordi run the whole ship by themselves, then you're going to be disappointed. There will be more new characters introduced in the books ahead, and they will get as much attention as the pre-existing TV characters do, and they will do jobs such as ops and conn and security and science and counseling. So brace yourself.

 

[David cgc]

Personally, I found it annoying that two of the new "main" crew were killed off in their first appearance. It strikes me as a symptom of pilot-itis. Have an extra character who's just as involved as the real main characters for the series, and then kill him off to prove the situation is serious. Offhand, I can think of Kowalski on SG-1 (who technically died in the second episode, but was still built up as a main character to fake the audience out), Sumner in Atlantis, and Dobson in Firefly. And how could I forget the granddaddy of them all, Gary Mitchell in TOS? It's a bit of a cliche at this point that someone in the first episode of a show isn't going to make it out alive.

Oddly, I didn't mind when the new Battlestar Galactica did it with Prosna in the miniseries. Probably because he was a background character and didn't get really built up, and because the series continued killing off recognizable third-tier characters every third episode, so it wasn't anything special for the pilot.

 

[od0_ital]

Christopher said:

od0_ital said:
I'm just goin' with what was available in the story. As far as I could tell, from the book, there were only three folks on the bridge at any given moment after Picard was turned into Locutus - Worf, T'Lana & Nave. And Worf was just kinda sittin' there, makin' sideways glances at the counselor, why make Nave do all the work?

Because that's what she and the other thousand people on the ship are there for. There's a whole crew on board, qualified and trained to do these jobs -- why in hell would you expect them to sit around doing nothing while the first officer does their jobs for them? The first officer's job is to tell the rest of the crew what to do in order to carry out the captain's orders.

For that matter, why aren't you complaining just as loudly about T'Lana? I mean, how dare they bring in a new counselor rather than having Crusher double up that job?

I don't understand your attitude toward this at all. This is the TNG Relaunch. Nearly half the regular cast has moved on. It's necessary to introduce new characters to the ensemble, just as every other relaunch series has done. Nave isn't a Mary Sue any more than Vaughn or Shar or Jast in the DS9 Relaunch.

This is the same complaint I've been makin' - if I just read the book, I'd have no idea how many folks were on the bridge, or how many other stations there were, because no one else was ever mentioned.

And I made my case for Nave bein' a Mary Sue in my original criticism - she's a bright character everyone notices, gets along with, and even gets to play with Worf on his level.

And my complaints about T'Lana is that she's the opposite of Nave - no one gets along with her, but everyone still notices her.

As I've said, I didn't care much for either TNG: Death in Winter or TNG: Resistance, and I certainly hope the next two post-NEM stories are better. Based on their authors, I'm guessin' they will be, since both KRAD and Peter David have written some of the best Trek fiction available. If those stories turn out to be as big a disappointment as the these have been, it'll be just one more series I'm not goin' to buy anymore of, that simple.

Well, if you're so morally opposed to the idea of introducing new central characters rather than having Picard, Worf, Bevery and Geordi run the whole ship by themselves, then you're going to be disappointed. There will be more new characters introduced in the books ahead, and they will get as much attention as the pre-existing TV characters do, and they will do jobs such as ops and conn and security and science and counseling. So brace yourself.

Which brings up another complaint connected with the other you singled out - who was the Ops officer durin' TNG: Resistance? If the bridge configuration wasn't altered durin' repairs, it should still be the station at the front, right next to Nave's conn. But I didn't notice a single mention anyone even bein' there. No name, no physical description, not even "the ensign just sat there at Ops". Was the station even mentioned? I can't remember, and not in a rush to crack the book back open.

I don't have a problem with new characters, after all, I do read the DS9 Relaunch. But I'd like to read "real" characters. Nave was too perfect, as Mary Sue will tend to be when she is used, and T'Lana was just there to argue a point. And anyone else on Dillard's version of the Big E who wasn't a character from the series was just cannon fodder for the Borg.

And please, ya gotta have morals before ya can be morally opposed to anything.

 

[Christopher]

David cgc said:
Personally, I found it annoying that two of the new "main" crew were killed off in their first appearance. It strikes me as a symptom of pilot-itis. Have an extra character who's just as involved as the real main characters for the series, and then kill him off to prove the situation is serious. Offhand, I can think of Kowalski on SG-1 (who technically died in the second episode, but was still built up as a main character to fake the audience out), Sumner in Atlantis, and Dobson in Firefly.

Well, actually Kawalsky was a character in the movie, so he doesn't count as someone created specifically to be killed off.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I'm sorry, Tom, I just don't see Sara Nave as a Mary Sue for Jeanne Dillard. I just don't see it. And to say that she's a Mary Sue means torturing the definition of "Mary Sue" far past the breaking point. She wasn't better than anyone else. She wasn't smarter than anyone else. She didn't bed Picard, Worf, and T'Lana (in any order). I actually found her interesting, more interesting than T'Lana, and I was genuinely disappointed when she didn't survive.

C'est la vie. *shrug*