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Ss Columbia

PCz911

Captain
Captain
In the cage, the ss Columbia crashes on talos. Given the talosian ability to project images to the enterprise in menagerie, did you think they also cause the Columbia crash?

If so, it was a bit messy on their part. After all, a bunch of scientists probably would have been great to repopulate a planet. And they wouldn't have waited a dozen years or so to attract another earth ship.
 
I would have said that the Columbia crashed on it's own rather than by The Talosians! They may not have been aware of humans at this point and considered the approaching spaceship to be debris until they either heard the distress call and then obviously recovered the bodies from the wreckage!
JB
 
It seems an awfully big coincidence that SS Columbia would just happen to crash on a planet with humanoids, and ones who want to capture specimens, and within walking distance of the zoo keeper's main elevator. The ship must have been lured there with an illusion and told to land where X marks the spot.

The crash itself had to be an accident. It's the last thing the Talosians would want, a mess on their hands. I'm pretty sure the Keeper's son logged on to play World of Zoocraft, hogged all the bandwidth, and the Columbia's in-flight illusion froze up at a critical moment in their approach. Little bastard.

The 18-year wait for another Earth ship to come along makes sense in "The Cage" if projected illusions travel at the speed of light, and there just isn't much traffic in that region of space.

It's harder to explain the wait given what the Keeper can do in "The Menagerie." He sends real-time illusions to Kirk on Starbase 11. Maybe Spock sent a drone to Talos IV with instructions on how to build a subspace transmitter and adapt it for projecting illusions. But look at the power that gives the Talosians. Spock would have to be wildly treasonous to do that. Problem not solved.
 
An alternative explanation: the Talosians had never met a human before, and after the accidental crash landing of Columbia, they were genuinely intrigued by the species during their 'reconstruction' of Vina. To be sure, they wanted to keep Pike against his will, but perhaps their efforts to lure Enterprise might have been a genuine attempt to provide Vina with companionship. Their intentions could be benign... right up to the point where they capture Yeoman Colt and Number One, which is the point where their desperation to keep Pike on the surface at any cost begins to show.
 
The 18-year wait for another Earth ship to come along makes sense in "The Cage" if projected illusions travel at the speed of light
Problem there is the Enterprise received the distress message, Pike decided to ignore it, then they receive another message saying there were survivors, causing Pike to change his mind.

From what we subsequently found out there would have been no one capable of send a follow up message.

Separately ...

Why cause the Columbia to crash, when they could have made the crew bring the ship down for a safe landing, or come down by shuttles?

:)
 
We don't really know there was a crash.

I mean, there's a whole zoo of captives below the surface (unless that's an illusion, too). The Talosians have clearly been at it for decades or centuries, luring in all sorts of starfarers. What happened to their ships? The Talosians claim they are klutzes with tech, but they can always make their slaves do their bidding. Perhaps those ships were safely landed and used in desperate repairs of Talosian infrastructure, perhaps they were crashed to prevent escape attempts or to neutralize the remaining crew once a specimen had been secured.

The Columbia may have been crashed on the surface after enough experimentation was done on the humans (leaving Vina disfigured and all males dead). Or she may have been recycled, and the "wreckage" on the surface was as much an illusion as the "camp".

Certainly I'd put zero faith on anything Vina or "Vina" says at the conclusion of the story. It's clearly just another desperate bid by the Talosians to prevent Pike from doing further damage (they apparently did destroy the elevator already, and apparently did set a phaser on self-destruct).

Vina during the episode may have existed in some form, but probably not as a disfigured old woman, because everything we see is more likely to be false than true. If the concept of securing a breeding pair is for real, then Vina may be alive - but I doubt that, as she supposedly wouldn't be able to breed any more even if captured intact. And the Talosians did capture young women as part of their most recent ploy; they simply had none available in the initial landing party, supposedly because

a) their initial manipulations weren't detailed enough or
b) they wanted to study a human first, and using sex as the lure would work better if they invited in an all-male team.

The overall likelier scheme is that Vina was long dead, and her various likenesses were used for manipulating Pike - first in hopes of making him a servant in whatever real scheme the Talosians had, then in sheer damage control.

However, perhaps there never was any SS Columbia? At least the second distress signal clearly was a "realtime" response sent by the Talosians, suggestive of them eavesdropping on the heroes' thoughts at a distance. And it's highly unlikely to have been a real radio signal, given the timing, so it's likely evidence of the power of the Talosians to manipulate their victims at that distance. So the heroes may have received both a signal inviting them in, and the false belief that an SS Columbia had indeed once existed. The events would make sense even in the context where this is the very first Talosian attempt at dealing with humans.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Some really good points I hadn't considered before.

Alternatively , what if the talosians had some sort of spaceship flypaper (like the Tholians) that captured errant starships. Maybe it was a bit too strong and the columbia was damaged/destroyed? That would account for the "crash"

Of course, if they had said net why didn't they use it on enterprise?

The other question: how often does a starship crash Into a planet? The odds....
 
Obviously, the Talosians were some sort of superpowerful morons. Look at how they put Vina back together. Okay, fine - they had no other humans to look at. Could they not have used themselves as models? You know, symmetry, approximate placement of limbs, etc - they'd have gotten a LOT closer. But ignoring that, could they not have corrected their errors once they had her conscious and were able to read things out of her mind?

Some sort of advanced Pakled relative, the Talosians, I think.
 
Umm, they weren't building a snowman. "Putting together" a human would involve a lot of things, and the very last of them would be a quick check to see if any symmetry had resulted. If not... Too bad. What happened to Vina (or was purported to have happened to her) wasn't repairable with mere plastic surgery. And conversely, had they forced Vina's shell to a symmetric form, she probably wouldn't have survived the process.

Reading Vina's mind wouldn't help much, unless she was a clever and experienced physician. What if they didn't know what humans eat? None of us here on Trekbbs would be able to tell them what sort of vitally important molecules we can safely ingest - so unless the Talosian biochemistry were already compatible, the brightest of us might have to sustain themselves on a diet of, say, pure lactose and fat, for the miserable months this would keep them alive, and the rest would simply have to starve.

The other question: how often does a starship crash Into a planet? The odds....

Starships want to go near planets. Crashes probably occur quite often - the more often with species that don't have the patience to slow down to impulse before final approach.

Timo Saloniemi
 
So you're suggesting that on a show where the transporters can be used to split people into good and evil duplicates, deage them, combine them into a still-living Tuvix, and so on, and 23rd century Starfleet doctors can give people pills that grow them functional kidneys, that the super-advanced Talosians wouldn't have the facility to do what they needed to do to fix Vina if they really wanted to?

Yep. Pakleds. The Organians avoid them like the plague at all the super-advanced species get-togethers. ;)
 
The other question: how often does a starship crash Into a planet? The odds....

Starships want to go near planets. Crashes probably occur quite often - the more often with species that don't have the patience to slow down to impulse before final approach.

Timo Saloniemi

starships want to go into orbit, that's for sure. But crashing into a planet? Hopefully it's rare.
 
So you're suggesting that on a show where the transporters can be used to split people into good and evil duplicates, deage them, combine them into a still-living Tuvix, and so on, and 23rd century Starfleet doctors can give people pills that grow them functional kidneys, that the super-advanced Talosians wouldn't have the facility to do what they needed to do to fix Vina if they really wanted to?

Why would they need to? They need her alive, and I suppose they need her healthy enough to bear children. Everything past that is irrelevant, for the Talosians; she can look like anything she wants, after all, and think that she's as active as she wishes to be.

And if they'd got her to the stable and living condition I would certainly understand being reluctant to put her under the knife again --- any kind of surgery carries risks, and on an alien form you have one chance to get right those risks are enormous --- for a cosmetic effect that doesn't make any real difference.
 
Indeed. Although I rather think it more likely that the Talosians faked that humpbacked appearance purely for sympathy points. If they ever did manage to repair Vina, they would probably have done it with her hooked to machinery - there would be no point in giving her any mobility.

The story of a single survivor doesn't convince me any more than the story of multiple brave survivors and their tent, though. The slave breeding idea also stinks - what we saw the Talosians do was keep just a single example of each species in their menagerie, while their own assumption seemed to be that they would need a pair in order to get breeding. Surely most starships have crews greater than one, so why only ever capture one being per ship? Conversely, why retain just a single being if the breeding scheme with a captured crew fails?

Indeed, why assume truth from the mouths (pulsating veins?) of a species of liars?

Timo Saloniemi
 
The question then becomes, what were they doing taking in a crippled Fleet Captain Pike? Helping Spock as a favor? It would have been around 30 years since Columbia.
 
With the odds of Vina bearing children lower than ever...

I think the question is the same all along. Why does a single specimen always suffice? And any answer is superior to the suggested "breeding".

The odds of the Talosians needing exactly one human male to mate with their one human female are pretty low. When they in "The Cage" have access to hundreds of humans, why not capture at least dozens, so that the next time around they have more survivors to mate with the next round of captives? At the very least, get multiple males so that at least one survives until the next batch of females is captured, and vice versa.

When the other aliens are also seen in single captivity, the odds become even more perverse, and the need for an alternate explanation more pressing. And many of the alternate explanations would probably account for the second capture of Pike if they account for the first.

Possibly slave races are indeed on the Talosian wish list, but it only takes one viable individual to get the necessary raw materials for cloning those. And they never had Vina, and there never was any Columbia: Pike was their very first human captive, and even though they initially had to let him go (when he and his crew started doing physical damage to Talosian hardware), they eventually reeled him back in and got their slave race after all.

Perhaps it wasn't about cloning, though, but about holding a single alien captive for his or her or its exceptional brain processes? The menagerie might have been vital for Talosian mental health, providing brain fodder rather than pairs of hands (or wings or tentacles). Or then not particularly vital, but entertaining. It's not as if we really got evidence that the Talosians would have been in dire straits, let alone in any need of arable topsoil or surface cities.

Timo Saloniemi
 
We never did see into the other cages well- there could have been other captive aliens and just one standing near the door.
I think the SS Columbia crash was an accident after being lured to the landing spot. The ship was fairly primitive in Pike's era, (it was not even using their time-space-warp drive) so it might have simply a problem setting down.
 
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/0x00/thecage165.jpg

We did get to see some other folks in cage's (the above example, for instance )

Another thought: only two as a breeding pair (Adam and eve?) doesn't work for the genetic pool. Their offspring would need to mate with each other to propagate. That is a very limited gene pool (look at how screwed up the royalty of Europe was with all that in breeding)
 
To clarify- I had meant we saw something standing towards the front of the cage but could not see well the rest of the way inside- there could have been other beings besides that one towards the back. Pike was at the front of his cage a lot and the two females were behind him where another captive would not have seen them...
 
True enough. I wonder why none of these had given the Talosians the slave race they purportedly needed...

Was there a Goldilocks species they coveted, one with enough initiative to revitalize the planet but not enough of it to rebel? They might indeed have been getting desperate, then, and would have erred on the side of incaution with humans, for the first time.

But how likely is it for a species less driven than humans to make it to the stars? What species of willing slaves would explore Talos and get caught?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Another thought: only two as a breeding pair (Adam and eve?) doesn't work for the genetic pool. Their offspring would need to mate with each other to propagate. That is a very limited gene pool (look at how screwed up the royalty of Europe was with all that in breeding)
Maybe that depends on how advanced Talosian genetic science is? Perhaps with a sample of just two they can extrapolate other functional DNA sequences and create additional working genomes to put into "mama's" eggs, and then grow them in artificial gestation chambers.
 
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