SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

[shapeshifter]

Intriguing. There are a lot of assumptions and complaints being (sometimes angrily) thrown about regarding this ship:

*snip*

In short, let's just wait and see what happens, shall we?

Agreed. How dare anyone who hasn't seen the film bide their time with idle assumptions while they wait for the films release.

*sits back twiddling thumbs*

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Maybe I'm missing something, but there's still one key detail we still don't know: Vengeance's registry number. This is important.

There is no registry number. Section 31 has improved efficiency by putting the zero directly in front of the name. USS 0Vengeance.

And by using tiny black stealth f0nt.

"Every time I press one of these black controls, labelled in black on a black background, a little black light lights up black to let me know I've done it"

or better yet

"Well, the thing about a black hole - its main distinguishing feature - is it's black. And the thing about space, the colour of space, your basic space colour, is black."

Seriously, if there's an extra zero anywhere, The Wormhole will no doubt have to dust off his old AV.

 

[The Wormhole]

^^It's certainly been dusted off, that's for sure.

 

[throwback]

I think it's reasonable to discuss how useful this ship would be in battle. We have seen in Star Trek how small ships are able to defeat larger ships, i.e. the Defiant against the Lakota and, in the mirror universe, the Defiant against the Regent's flagship. In my analysis, I, also, include real world history.

This ship is built to counter Klingon aggression. The Klingons have Bird-of-Preys that are fast, maneuverable ships. Smaller ships can overwhelm a larger ship. I once saw in a picture a pod of orcas taking down a blue whale. This behemoth is a blue whale waiting to be taken down by Klingon orcas.

Personally, I am repulsed by this trend in Star Trek towards ridiculous large ships and stations. None of the ships in the last three films I feel have the elegance and grace of the original Enterprise, or the warlike majesty of the K't'inga-class warships. I don't want cool; I want and desire a ship that inspires in me an emotion other than

 

[SalvorHardin]

This ship is built to counter Klingon aggression. The Klingons have Bird-of-Preys that are fast, maneuverable ships. Smaller ships can overwhelm a larger ship.

That's why fleets, Klingon or otherwise, don't have just one type of ship but various ships in size and purpose. To work together, cover each others ass in all sorts of senarios.
You build Vengeance to counter the various huge Narada types that make quick work of your smaller ships, like we saw in ST09. And you build smaller ships to counter the various more maneuverable Bird of Prey types.

Vengeance is just another arrow in the quiver.

 

[throwback]

So, we build a 1 mile ship to counter a 5 mile ship. Why not build a ship of exactly that length, or maybe double the size, to counter this ship? That didn't work for the Imperial Navy, as one fighter took out the bridge and brought the ship crashing into the Death Star. Imagine that happening in Star Trek.

An enemy ship smashes into your bridge, and, considering, that you left the bridge far more vulnerable to attack, as you idiotically put in openings on either side of the bridge structure, there goes your expensive penis waving project.

 

[SalvorHardin]

So, we build a 1 mile ship to counter a 5 mile ship. Why not build a ship of exactly that length, or maybe double the size, to counter this ship?

How do you know they aren't building an even bigger ship? Maybe it's the next in line in the shipyards after trying and succeeding with the 1 mile variant.

That didn't work for the Imperial Navy, as one fighter took out the bridge and brought the ship crashing into the Death Star. Imagine that happening in Star Trek.

So what your proposal? Build just one type and size of spaceship for everything? Build as many small, maneuverable fighters as possible and when the next huge Narada/D7/D'deridex fleet comes we just keep throwing large disposable numbers at them, aiming for the bridge until we're the last ones standing?

Personally, I say a balanced fleet needs the small highly maneuverable fighters, the big ass Vengeance types and more classes in between those. Each one serves a different purpose and together they cover each others weaknesses.

An enemy ship smashes into your bridge, and, considering, that you left the bridge far more vulnerable to attack, as you idiotically put in openings on either side of the bridge structure, there goes your expensive penis waving project.

We should warn all those big ass real life aircraft carriers. Their bridges are totally exposed, sticking up into the air open to attack from all sides.
Lets warn those Klingon idiots too while we're at it. With their thin necks and exposed bridges open to attack from all sides. A warrior race they tell you. Hah...

 

[trevanian]

So, we build a 1 mile ship to counter a 5 mile ship. Why not build a ship of exactly that length, or maybe double the size, to counter this ship? That didn't work for the Imperial Navy, as one fighter took out the bridge and brought the ship crashing into the Death Star. Imagine that happening in Star Trek.

An enemy ship smashes into your bridge, and, considering, that you left the bridge far more vulnerable to attack, as you idiotically put in openings on either side of the bridge structure, there goes your expensive penis waving project.

None of these designs seem all that smart from the military built-to-protect perspective. But if you want another way to take out the big saucer with the hole in the middle, take a page from one of the Shatner/Reeves-Stevens novels, where they have a DEFIANT-class Enterprise decloak INSIDE the open area on a TNG-era Warbird and just fire while rotating around inside that empty space between main hull and engines.

 

[EJD1984]

One thing I feel certain about. If the Enterprise is destroyed in this movie, it will not be replaced by the new Dreadnaught/Vengeance. Up close, it's not as graceful of a design that the Enterprise traditionally has been.

*Though I'm sure the Vengeance does have a proper engineering.

 

[trevanian]

If you're right, then we can hope that will be salvaged from the VENGer and then utilized in the E's refit. Personally I'd be so much happier with the VENGer bridge instead of seeing Kirk & co in a TARGET Store's overlit white cosmetics aisle ...

 

[Kemaiku]

If the Enterprise is destroyed in this movie...

Spoiler: Ships

It isn't, it'll be back in any third movie the same as we've seen it so far. And the Vengeance engineering is not shown, but presumably the same type as the Enteprises from what we do see.

 

[TOSTNGDS9VOYENT]

One thing I feel certain about. If the Enterprise is destroyed in this movie, it will not be replaced by the new Dreadnaught/Vengeance. Up close, it's not as graceful of a design that the Enterprise traditionally has been.

*Though I'm sure the Vengeance does have a proper engineering.

One thing I do like about the Vengeance, Is its bridge. To me its more like the Kelvin and most other bridge types that we've seen, compared to the super happy, super bright Apple store bridge that has to be Mopped, polished, and dusted every hour.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It's really pretty similar to the Enterprise's bridge except for being a darker color.

 

[throwback]

Aircraft carriers are supported and protected by a carrier strike group.

The issue I have is with the size.

I know that Franz Joseph’s Dreadnought Class Starship was 320 meters long, which made it 32 meters longer than the Heavy Cruiser Class Starship.

I did a quick survey of battlecruisers, battleships, and heavy cruiser classes that served in World War II.

Since we are given a length measure, I looked at the overall length of the varying classes. The smallest class is the Mississippi-class Battleship, which was commissioned before WWI, and the Iowa-class Battleship, which was commissioned in WWII. The difference in size is 154 meters. The largest class is not three times the length of the smallest. It's more like 1 1/3 times longer. There were ship classes of varying sizes between these two classes, and there were decades of experience building, testing, and fielding these ships in battle.

For me, I would find it more realistic if Starfleet built a ship that was somewhat larger, but not so much larger, to dwarf the Enterprise. According to the known ship types, the Enterprise-type starships were the largest ships in the fleet. Starfleet had to field a ship in less than a year as war with the Klingons was looming. Hypothetically, I can imagine Starfleet, after the defeat of Narada, would take an existing frame under construction, perhaps an Enterprise-type starship or a starship of another type that was roughly equal or a little larger in length, and converting it into a larger warship. However, I don't see them being able to convert it into the behemoth we see in the movie.

I understand from doing my researches what they were attempting to do. In WWII, there was a type of battleship called the fast battleship. An example of this was the USS Iowa. These ships "...emphasized speed without - in concept - undue compromise of either armor or armament." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_battleship)

250 to 275 meters
270 meters Iowa-class Battleship (US)
262.1 meters Admiral-class Battlecruiser (UK)
251 meters Bismarck-class Battleship (Germany)
225 to 274 meters
246.43 meters Alaska-class Large Cruiser (US)
237.76 meters Littorio-class Battleship (Italy)
235 meters Scharnhorst-class Battleship (Germany)
228.7 meters Renown-class Battlecruiser (UK)
227.1 meters King George V-class Battleship (UK)
200 to 224 meters
222.190 meters North Carolina-class Battleship (US)
216.4 meters Nelson-class Battleship (UK)
215.8 meters Ise-class Battleship (Japan)
215.8 meters Nagato-class Battleship (Japan)
215.1 meters Dunkerque-class Battleship (France)
214.58 meters Kongō-class Battlecruiser (Japan)
210 meters South Dakota-class Battleship (US)
205.6 meters Baltimore-class Heavy Cruiser (US)
204 meters Myōkō-class Heavy Cruiser (Japan)
202.8 meters Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruiser (Germany)
202.7 meters Fusō-class Battleship (Japan)
201.6 meters Mogami-class Heavy Cruiser (Japan)
175 to 199 meters
196.9 meters Trento-class Heavy Cruiser (Italy)
196.82 meters Queen Elizabeth-class Battleship (UK)
194 meters Suffran-class Heavy Cruiser (France)
192.54 meters Takao-class Heavy Cruiser (Japan)
190.27 meters Colorado-class Battlecruiser (UK)
190 meters County-class Heavy Cruiser (UK)
190 meters New Mexico-class Battleship (US)
190 meters Revenge-class Battleship (UK)
190 meters Tennessee-class Battleship (US)
189.1 meters Tone-class Heavy Cruiser (Japan)
186 meters Portland-class Heavy Cruiser (US)
185.3 meters Pennsylvania-class Battleship (US)
184 meters Hawkins-class Heavy Cruiser (UK)
182.96 meters Northampton-class Heavy Cruiser (US)
182.8 meters Zara-class Heavy Cruiser (Italy)
181.2 meters Gangut-class Battleship (Russia)
179.27 meters New Orleans-class Heavy Cruiser (US)
178.5 meters Pensacola-class Heavy Cruiser (US)
177.7 meters Nevada-class Battleship (US)
176 meters Andrea Doria-class Battleship (Italy)
176 meters Conti di Cavour-class Battleship (Italy)
175 meters New York-class Battleship (US)
150 to 174 meters
171 meters Wyoming-class Battleship (US)
166 meters Bretagne-class Battleship (France)
166 meters Courbet-class Battleship (France)
164.6 meters York-class Battleship (UK)
159 meters Florida-class Battleship (US)
125 to 149 meters
127.6 meters Deutschland-class Battleship (Germany)
100 to 124 meters
116.4 meters Mississippi-class Battleship (US)

 

[Kemaiku]

Which has what to do with starships 300 years from now?

 

[throwback]

I have read that if you are to imagine the future, look first to the past. The past can be instructive on the nature of humans.

In wars past, we have seen how nations have converted existing hull frames under construction into a new hull shape to meet new demands. We can see how humans created specialized products to meet new threats. For instance, the IJN Shinano was converted from a battlecruiser to an aircraft carrier. The decision to convert her hull came after the Battle of Midway, in which the Imperial Japanese Navy lost four of their carriers. By looking into the past, I can see where JJ Abrams and his people were going in the design of the Vengeance. They were attempting to depict a spaceborne Iowa-class battleship analogue - a fast battleship. Fast battleships were used for combat with other ships of its type, for escorting larger ships, and for bombarding islands. (Which, for me, raised the question, what other large starships was Starfleet building? And was Starfleet planning on taking out Klingon colonies on planets from orbit?)

As I haven't seen the film, and as I haven't seen data on this new ship, I don't know what weapons, beside what has been seen in the trailer, this Vengeance has. The description by Khan made notes to the ship's speed, length, and crew size.

The class nomenclature Dreadnought Class is not I believe the more specific nomenclature of this ship class, i.e. Federation-class starship. I think it is used to identify the type for which this ship is assigned. For this reason, I don't believe there is a ship named Dreadnought.

 

[Ovation]

You do realize that military "realism" and Trek have never been in the same galaxy, let alone neighbourhood, right?

In Trek, ships are always in function of the plot--they move at "speed of plot", they're built at "size of plot" and have all the "capabilities of plot" necessary to tell a particular story. Consistency in these matters has NEVER been especially notable.

 

[The Wormhole]

Yeah, but the lack of subtlety is what gets me with Vengeance. "It's big, scary looking and black because it's the villain's ship." Not even Imperial Star Destroyers were that obvious about their villainous nature.

 

[Ovation]

When is the last time Trek was "subtle"?

 

[The Wormhole]

Fine, but when was the last time, prior to Abrams taking over that Trek was that blatantly obvious? Aside from the Borg, are there even any black ships in all of Trek?