If there are two different grades there would be two different titles. The grades being different enough to have separate insignia, but not different enough to have separate titles doesn't make sense.
Spock's Promotion
- Thread starter MAGolding
- Start date
If there are two different grades there would be two different titles. The grades being different enough to have separate insignia, but not different enough to have separate titles doesn't make sense.
I can accept that Lieutenant Commander can be referred to as Commander in casual talk.
However, in "Amok Time," the name plate next to the door of Spock's cabin clearly says Commander Spock when Chapel goes in with the soup. Would Starfleet be that casual in identifying its cabin assignments? Unfortunately, we never visited Spock's quarters in the first season for a comparison.
However, in "Amok Time," the name plate next to the door of Spock's cabin clearly says Commander Spock when Chapel goes in with the soup. Would Starfleet be that casual in identifying its cabin assignments? Unfortunately, we never visited Spock's quarters in the first season for a comparison.
I am not sure if it could be worked out by the episodes but there is the custom of "frocking" where an individual is authorized to wear the higher insignia before the actual date of promotion.
Don't let the lack of a new stripe arrangement for a Commander and a Senior Lieutenant Commander confuse us. In the Cage and WNMHGB, the Captain had two stripes and everyone else had one stripe or no stripes. (or was one of the stripes kind of frilly vs. solid?)
It looks like de Forest Research advised them to promote Mr. Spock in their notes for the second season writer's guide.
The one occasion must have been Commander Giotto in "The Devil in the Dark."
Last edited:
Awesome. I knew you would have an authoritative source! Thanks.
I would have thought you'd be right, Zap, because Finney was referred to in the dialogue as "Lieutenant Commander Finney," and I thought Giotto was always "Commander Giotto." But in fact Kirk refers to Giotto twice as "Lieutenant Commander Giotto." Since saying "commander" instead of "lieutenant commander" to address or refer to an LCDR is accepted usage, the other references to "Commander Giotto" don't necessarily conflict. So it seems Giotto, like Finney and Spock, was an LCDR wearing two full braids.
I'm struggling to figure out how they got this wrong throughout S1. Since having Scotty command the ship was a mid-S1 development, they might have initially thought that Bones and Scotty wouldn't be line officers and therefore LCDR was an appropriate rank for them, and Spock, as command personnel, should have two full braids even if his rank was actually the same. But that is in tension with having Spock in blue rather than greengold, and certainly the "records officer" and probably the security chief don't seem like they'd be in the chain of command. Finney did wear goldgreen but the entire premise of the episode was how Kirk ruined his career.
Last edited:
In most cases, real world, a full rank is only used formally and for introductions - Lt. Commander, Commander, Master Sgt., Tech Sgt., etc. - and in daily operations the base rank is used. (Imagine in a combat situation having to spit out Lt. Commander or Master Sgt. instead of just Commander and Sgt.) If several commanders and Lt Commanders are in a room, it is just Commander Jones, Commander Smith, etc., hierarchy is important for who salutes and who gives orders and is easily discerned from insignia if you don't already know.
Based on ENT, a possible candiate for the "Senior Lieutenant Commander" rank would be the Vulcan rank of Sub Commander.
The Vulcan rank of "Captain" appears to roughly correspond to a (senior) Starfleet Captain (or possibly the billet/rank of Fleet Captain and/or Commodore*), a Vulcan Commander commands a starship (so roughly equal to a Starfleet Captain or between Captain and Commander), a Vulcan Sub Commander ranks with, but senior to a Starfleet Commander.
* This last usage appears to be the Andorian model.
The Vulcan rank of "Captain" appears to roughly correspond to a (senior) Starfleet Captain (or possibly the billet/rank of Fleet Captain and/or Commodore*), a Vulcan Commander commands a starship (so roughly equal to a Starfleet Captain or between Captain and Commander), a Vulcan Sub Commander ranks with, but senior to a Starfleet Commander.
* This last usage appears to be the Andorian model.
If there are two different grades using the same insignia, that is essentially confusing.
In "The Cage" everyone wore one or none, but the stripe worn by the Adam Roarke character (a chief petty officer in the script) was sort of like a ladder, with open sections. In WNMHGB the captain wore two and everyone else wore one or none.
Since we know that lieutenant commanders (Mitchell) and lieutenants (Kelso) wore the same single stripe in WNMHGB, it seems safe to say that some different system was in place at that time. In the post-pilot costumes, a system of stripes to identify each naval rank (above ensign, anyway) seems to have been worked out, but apparently there were errors in application in the first season.
I agree although this actually depends on the unit and the situation. Actually, even in combat I'm told by people who ought to know that using titles like "Master Chief" and "Staff Sergeant" is not uncommon. But interestingly, from what I've gathered that seems to be true more for the titles of enlisted ranks than for officers, and such usage changes over time and may have been different 50 years back.
On that last note, I also agree if you're suggesting that some of this may have played a role in the confusion/inconsistency that the writers showed with regard to the ranks of Spock, Finney, and Giotto. Roddenberry had a law enforcement and a military background, having served in WWII as a pilot officer in the Army Air Forces. Some of the other S1 producers may have served in the Navy. All of this might have helped, or it might not have helped.
Witness the relatively unusual treatment of enlisted ranks in Starfleet.
Yeah, it really defeats the entire purpose of rank insignia that tells you someone's rank at a glance.
Maybe they are participation ranks like everyone getting trophies in kid's soccer.
The Star Trek Chronology by the Okudas has Spock's promotion occurring between "Court Martial" and "The Menagerie," as reflected by your first two episodes cited. I think that's as good a place as any to have it. In my own ST Chronology, that happens to fall right at the beginning of the 5YM's third year, which seems as logical a time as any for promotions and reassignments.
I wasn't aware that Spock was also called a Lieutenant Commander in "Tomorrow is Yesterday," though. I wonder if the Odukas missed that as well.
BTW, @KeepOnTrekking, I really like your backstory. It fits nicely with what we see onscreen.
The Okudas are quite simply wrong on this.
In dialog in both "Court-Martial" and "The Menagerie part one," Spock is officially and explicitly referred to as Lieutenant Commander Spock. And he is still "Lieutenant Commander Spock" in the later-filmed "Tomorrow is Yesterday."
HOWEVER, excerpts from Kellam DeForest's research notes for "The Menagerie part one" are printed on pp. 315-317 of THE MAKING OF STAR TREK, and Kellam DeForest's researcher writes in regard to script page 32 scene 70:
"A hearing on Lieutenant Commander Spock. In "Court-Martial" Spock's rank is established as a full Commander, which is certainly more suitable for the First Officer. " (TMOST, pp. 316-317)
The research note from Kellam DeForest conflicts with the aired version of Court-Martial. Maybe Maurice or Harvey can tell us if an early draft of Court-Martial referred to Spock as a full Commander, but it's not in the aired episode.
I wish people would stop using "chain of command" like it means "order of succession". The chain of command is the order of personnel (Officers/enlisted) through which command is exercised from superior to subordinate. It is determined locally by the hierarchical organization of a ship or station and everyone --everyone-- posted there is a part of that post's chain of command. And it pretty much determines who you give orders to and who gives you orders. Chain of command is not Captain(rank) -> Commander -> Lieutenant, etc, It's Commanding Officer->Executive Officer -> Department Head -> Division Officer, etc. Because without an assignment to such a position, you typically don't have authority over anyone.
I don't see the issue. There are two Rear Admirals in the USN. There are two Lieutenants in most services. How would two Lieutenant Commanders be any different? In all the above cases, dedicated rank markers would make said ranks distinct at a glance and establish who's the boss, which is the whole purpose of that exercise.
Two Lieutenant Commanders would cover all the TOS incidents, and offer another interpretation for covering the T'Pol vs. Tucker case if need be. In other eras, we could argue for either one or two Lieutenant Commanders just as we please, as even though there's no case there were a person wearing three pips would be called any specific or contradictory sort of Commander, this still perfectly allows for numerous other ranks that happen to have the courtesy name Commander. Just like there are numerous ranks with the courtesy name Admiral, say. The two-LCdr model really offers nothing new in real-world terms.
Timo Saloniemi
Agreed, the chain of command is who reports to whom.
Neither of those examples are pertinent. Upper and lower rear admirals and first and second lieutenants (or lieutenants and lieutenants [junior grade], or lieutenants and sub-lieutenants, or lieutenants and second lieutenants) all have distinct titles which would be used in official records.
I'm not sure what difference that is supposed to make in the Trek context, where indeed no difference is made between the two types of Lieutenant, and no flag officer identifies him- or herself by a specific grade of Admiral, in the most formal of occasions. (It is only in relatively informal occasions where the concepts of "junior grade" or "vice" are uttered instead - once or twice in the entire history of Trek.)
Two types of Lieutenant Commander or two types of Lieutenant - same difference. Even in courts martial, it seems, which is okay if it's okay for Starfleet.
Timo Saloniemi
Two types of Lieutenant Commander or two types of Lieutenant - same difference. Even in courts martial, it seems, which is okay if it's okay for Starfleet.
Timo Saloniemi
Similar threads
