Spock vs. Worf vs. Odo: Thoughts?

[LadyT'Anna]

Am I the only Trek fan who sees some intriguing similarities among Spock, Worf, and Odo? (Keep in mind that I'm approaching this topic from a mostly TOS and DS9 perspective; counterweights appreciated!)

What are your thoughts?

 

[plynch]

"Outsider"?

Individual seen to represent an entire people?

 

[LadyT'Anna]

"Outsider"?

Individual seen to represent an entire people?

Indeed--and wrongly at that. Spock is half-human, Worf was raised by humans, and Odo is not biased against all "solids" on principle.

 

[Kilana2]

Let's start with what they have in common: Spock, Odo and Worf are torn between the expectations of their families/people and the challenge of serving in Starfleet. They try to reconcile both.

1. Spock didn't talk to his father for a very long time. Sarek didn't approve of his admission in SF. He found friends aboard Enterprise. Kirk and Co. became his family.

2. Odo didn't know who he was. When he found out about the Dominion and his people he was torn. He had friends aboard DS9. In the end he reconciled the interests of his Starfleet and Bajoran friends with the founders needs - after a long and cruel war.

3. Worf was raised by humans and is the only Klingon serving in Starfleet. He struggles to reconcile his heritage with Starfleets requirements.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I would put Data on that list more than Worf. Worf was an outsider but he could relate to the emotional experience of the other characters. He was more similar to the average human than Spock or Odo.

 

[stardream]

Shouldn't Seven of Nine be on this list? I thought they were characters put in place to reflect humanity.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Oh, dear. This is where I sheepishly confess that I've only seen a few episodes each of VOY and TNG. Feel free to add Seven of Nine and others to the list, though--I'm happy to learn new things.

I asked the original question of myself to begin with because I was thinking about verbal mannerisms as per TVTropes. Spock, Odo, and Worf are all extremely formal in this respect, and I'm thinking that being an outsider informs this tendency, given that an outsider has to learn the rules of grammar (in the case of an unfamiliar language) and etiquette very carefully indeed, especially in as hierarchical a milieu as Starfleet.

 

[plynch]

That's why Mr. Nimoy said he did Spock with British, broad A-vowels, early in Trek. Non-native, and had to learn. I think of Worf more as outsider than Data. Worf is separated from his ppl, though an outsider to em too, poor guy. I guess it's the separation angle, and that he feels himself to be other than humans while surrounded by them. As opposed to clueless, which is how Data comes across.

2. All three reflect a desire to seem rigid in their thinking/behavior. Spock and logic, Worf and Klingon cultural norms and honor, Odo and a Javer-ian sense of law and punishment. Yet all deviate and are not as rigid as they portray themselves. Spock and his friendship with Kirk and even McCoy, Odo letting Quark stay in business etc.

Maybe this is an acknowledgement by writers/showrunners that the outsider takes comfort in finding and playing a role?

 

[USS Triumphant]

Spock, Worf, Data, Odo, Seven, The Doctor, and to a lesser extent, Quark were all characters meant to explore what it meant to be human from an outsider perspective.

Making this list made me realize part of what was wrong with Enterprise: T'Pol - the character that might have been supposed to be the outsider - pretty much never was. She went *very* quickly from firm belief that Vulcans were superior, to being a fully trusted and integrated member of the command crew. And she lacked a dual nature like Spock, so the writers tried to give her depth with dumb things like her drug addiction.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It would have been interesting of the writers of Enterprise had made Travis an outsider character. While a human, as a Boomer, he has grown up in different culture than most of the crew. They could have played that up, making Travis unfamiliar with certain aspects of Earth bound culture and the opposite as well. Things like the "sweet spot".

 

[JoeZhang]

It would have been interesting of the writers of Enterprise had made Travis an outsider character. While a human, as a Boomer, he has grown up in different culture than most of the crew. They could have played that up, making Travis unfamiliar with certain aspects of Earth bound culture and the opposite as well. Things like the "sweet spot".

It would have been interesting if they had given him a character full-stop!

 

[T'Girl]

Surely Trip should be on the "outsider list" too, a Southern good old boy trapped on a ship with a Yankee Captain.

Yeeeeeee (hah).

 

[Granola Gwen]

I would put Data on that list more than Worf. Worf was an outsider but he could relate to the emotional experience of the other characters. He was more similar to the average human than Spock or Odo.

Yeah, I'd consider Data more as well even though Worf's backstory does make him valid. Data comes from where there's literally almost no one like him (besides other Soong type androids and Lal) that alone makes Data very isolated along with being emotionless. At least Worf has a kin. I always liked that little Spock and Data conversation in Unification how in a sense, they wish they were each other.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Surely Trip should be on the "outsider list" too, a Southern good old boy trapped on a ship with a Yankee Captain.

Yeeeeeee (hah).

Then McCoy is too.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Surely Trip should be on the "outsider list" too, a Southern good old boy trapped on a ship with a Yankee Captain.

Yeeeeeee (hah).

Then McCoy is too.

Hmm. So perhaps what we should be asking is, are there major Trek characters who aren't outsiders, and if so, what common traits do they share?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Surely Trip should be on the "outsider list" too, a Southern good old boy trapped on a ship with a Yankee Captain.

Yeeeeeee (hah).

Then McCoy is too.

Hmm. So perhaps what we should be asking is, are there major Trek characters who aren't outsiders, and if so, what common traits do they share?

For Kirk and possibly Picard it was the loneliness of command.

 

[T'Girl]

O'Brien isn't an outsider, owing to being the "regular everyday guy."

 

[Vandervecken]

Riker is no outsider.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Riker is no outsider.

He's lonely on the inside.

 

[Granola Gwen]

His beard covers the frowns and sadness on his face.